A request for FDev; please provide an update regarding Logging/Combat Logging

[Fray]

I understand your view and you had a hard time to start with, with other players and that was the reason you play mainly in Solo. Hopefully, one day you'll move into PvP mode. However, fundamentally, in your comments above, you're saying you don't have a problem with players cheating in ED.

Just an aside, first; why is someone moving into PvP a thing to 'hope' for? It's a game - with three distinct modes. Clearly FDev seem to value the Solo and MP experience equally, so I'm not sure why someone would hope someone moves into PvP (a culture of gaming and a culture of design I've personally tended to loathe my entire gaming life).

On topic: first you called it an exploit - then you called it cheating. Which is it? When is an exploit cheating? Are all exploits cheating? If so, 'cheating' is surely a fundamentally accepted, nay, encouraged element of the game, from mode flipping to re-logging to refresh an instance of materials.

How is combat logging really different to that, essentially?

You can say it's against the 'spirit' of the game, and I'd probably agree with you. But how do you define that when that's so subjective? And how, then, can FDev police the spirit of the game?

Surely combat logging is accepted against griefers, gankers, and trolls? I assume most would agree with that. It's every player's right to dismiss those kinds of toxic influences in the community. So how does FDev figure out the context of a combat log?

Surely they cannot. Ergo whilst I see your frustration (even as I question your terminology), I'm really not sure how FDev can 'fix' this.

Which loops around to mode choices; so long as there's a chance I'll be randomly X'd out by some manchild looking to enjoy their game by intruding upon someone else's and wasting their time (I've no issue with player's actually RP'ing piracy and having some semblance of a causal code about it, which I believe you do), I won't be playing ball with the MP side of things.

I'm sure FDev would like to stop the [subjective] spirit of the game being marred, but practically I don't see how they can (if someone's disconnected and gets punished, do they then always have to put in a ticket to have it revoked? that isn't practical for anyone).

If I played in Open and got griefed/ganked/trolled, and felt I couldn't avoid a rebuy I'd certainly combat log, as it's ostensibly just another form of exploiting the fact that we're playing a videogame, not a reality with rules we can't avoid or bend.

 

[Thepirateorc]

Just an aside, first; why is someone moving into PvP a thing to 'hope' for? It's a game - with three distinct modes. Clearly FDev seem to value the Solo and MP experience equally, so I'm not sure why someone would hope someone moves into PvP (a culture of gaming and a culture of design I've personally tended to loathe my entire gaming life).

On topic: first you called it an exploit - then you called it cheating. Which is it? When is an exploit cheating? Are all exploits cheating? If so, 'cheating' is surely a fundamentally accepted, nay, encouraged element of the game, from mode flipping to re-logging to refresh an instance of materials.

How is combat logging really different to that, essentially?

You can say it's against the 'spirit' of the game, and I'd probably agree with you. But how do you define that when that's so subjective? And how, then, can FDev police the spirit of the game?

Surely combat logging is accepted against griefers, gankers, and trolls? I assume most would agree with that. It's every player's right to dismiss those kinds of toxic influences in the community. So how does FDev figure out the context of a combat log?

Surely they cannot. Ergo whilst I see your frustration (even as I question your terminology), I'm really not sure how FDev can 'fix' this.

Which loops around to mode choices; so long as there's a chance I'll be randomly X'd out by some manchild looking to enjoy their game by intruding upon someone else's and wasting their time (I've no issue with player's actually RP'ing piracy and having some semblance of a causal code about it, which I believe you do), I won't be playing ball with the MP side of things.

I'm sure FDev would like to stop the [subjective] spirit of the game being marred, but practically I don't see how they can (if someone's disconnected and gets punished, do they then always have to put in a ticket to have it revoked? that isn't practical for anyone).

If I played in Open and got griefed/ganked/trolled, and felt I couldn't avoid a rebuy I'd certainly combat log, as it's ostensibly just another form of exploiting the fact that we're playing a videogame, not a reality with rules we can't avoid or bend.

perhaps fdev can warn people if they caught logging and admitting to it then after three or so reports then a temporary ban from open and a rebuy token away​

 

[verminstar]

perhaps fdev can warn people if they caught logging and admitting to it then after three or so reports then a temporary ban from open and a rebuy token away​

Thats highly unlikely and ye wanna know why? Because this translates into open mode being pvp mode and thats not really what open mode was designed for...it was designed as an open sandpit where the chance of pvp would be rare and meaningful. When its neither rare or meaningful, then ye really dont stand a chance of winning any higher ground in any debate about it.

To punish players who clog in open is sending the message to the wider gaming populace that if ye play in open, then yer nothing more than pvp content. Open is only now seeing a small number of players trickle back after the disaster of a few years ago when open became a feeding frenzy and the advice of the day was ¨git gud or go solo¨

Historically speaking, that advice was exceedingly short sighted when huge numbers of players did just that, only fer the pvprs to then change tactics and have been calling fer solo and private modes to be scrapped entirely. That advice came from those too dumb to see they themselves were the problem in the first place which is why ¨git gud or go solo¨ aint used so much nowadays...cos it backfired in their faces quite spectacularly.

Punishing players because they dont wanna be pvp content is just making the same mistakes, while doing nothing to actually solve the issue. PVP players do not own open mode whether they agree or not, so they cannot start dictating the rules of gameplay on an entire mode.

By all means, keep going if it makes ye happy...just bear in mind there are multiple mega threads stretching back 5 years on the subject and to this day, still nobody can agree or see a solution. The reason...imo...is because the pvp players themselves are either unwilling, or unable to admit they were the ones fer causing this problem in the first place using toxic gameplay to get their lulz...and all we hear since these problems first came about is demand after demand that frontier force players into pvp and punish them if they refuse.

And 5 years later, hows that been working out?

 

[GODofDUTY83]

Its a troublesome subject.
Fdev is clearly pushing the MP aspect of the game. I just hope they dont confuse MP with PvP and start rolling out some of those crazy ideas that are floating around being pushed out by PvP folks.

Is their a pirate version of mobius where its actually allowed ? Pirates do need to fire to cripple drives and the like.
I'd join. No problem being jacked for some some goodies now and then.

 

[Thepirateorc]

Thats highly unlikely and ye wanna know why? Because this translates into open mode being pvp mode and thats not really what open mode was designed for...it was designed as an open sandpit where the chance of pvp would be rare and meaningful. When its neither rare or meaningful, then ye really dont stand a chance of winning any higher ground in any debate about it.

To punish players who clog in open is sending the message to the wider gaming populace that if ye play in open, then yer nothing more than pvp content. Open is only now seeing a small number of players trickle back after the disaster of a few years ago when open became a feeding frenzy and the advice of the day was ¨git gud or go solo¨

Historically speaking, that advice was exceedingly short sighted when huge numbers of players did just that, only fer the pvprs to then change tactics and have been calling fer solo and private modes to be scrapped entirely. That advice came from those too dumb to see they themselves were the problem in the first place which is why ¨git gud or go solo¨ aint used so much nowadays...cos it backfired in their faces quite spectacularly.

Punishing players because they dont wanna be pvp content is just making the same mistakes, while doing nothing to actually solve the issue. PVP players do not own open mode whether they agree or not, so they cannot start dictating the rules of gameplay on an entire mode.

By all means, keep going if it makes ye happy...just bear in mind there are multiple mega threads stretching back 5 years on the subject and to this day, still nobody can agree or see a solution. The reason...imo...is because the pvp players themselves are either unwilling, or unable to admit they were the ones fer causing this problem in the first place using toxic gameplay to get their lulz...and all we hear since these problems first came about is demand after demand that frontier force players into pvp and punish them if they refuse.

And 5 years later, hows that been working out?

not all logs are from toxic gameplay caused by the attacker. I pirate players and they log for the sake they can, yet two minutes later they are back in open or we can look at the vettes and cutters who have 111mill bounty and are killing players yet they are not willing to take the rebuy themselves it is an exploit and fdev need to work on a solution

 

[Turkish]

How about if you are killed by another player you don't have to buy your ship back, you just loose all cargo/missions... but if killed by an npc you do buy back the ship. Solved that, you are welcome. It's ok Frontier my advice and counsel is free... for now.

 

[Mole HD]

not all logs are from toxic gameplay caused by the attacker. I pirate players and they log for the sake they can, yet two minutes later they are back in open or we can look at the vettes and cutters who have 111mill bounty and are killing players yet they are not willing to take the rebuy themselves it is an exploit and fdev need to work on a solution

That's all well and good for those of us who know and respect RP pirates like you and a few select others. Error (sadly moved on), who was a good mate of mine, and many others I've had the pleasure of meeting and doing 'business' with during my time on this game.

But the forum population who do recognise and respect you and others for their role in E-D make up perhaps 10-15% of the player base in general...so how are those others who have never visited the forum and have previously had several experiences dealt out from Johnny Ganker and his Lulz brigade at the CG feeding frenzies to tell the difference before facing yet another rebuy?

I welcome RP piracy, always have. I was part of the motion a few years ago badgering FDev for some more attention to the whole mechanic of Piracy, which fell on the usual deaf ears and PR nonsense from them... There is no effectual way to distinguish the difference between Piracy and a gank for the victims until it's too late. As for the PvP players who refuse to eat the rebuys and are by and large the worst offenders for pulling the plug... that's up to the PvP community to sort out amongst themselves.

Most of the RP pirates I knew in game have now gone...bored by the increasing toxicity of PvP caused by Engineers and that section of the PvP community with simply no regard for any form of Rules of Engagement which made their chosen role within the game world and interacting with the non PvP section of E-D almost impossible. It's not real life, we aren't real pirates or space ship pilots, it's a game...so we have a choice with which behaviour patterns we'll happily interact with or not. Like many, many others...I got simply bored with open mode it's and toxic nonsense and went off to fly in Mobius.

I miss the RP piracy...but there's not enough of it in open compared to the endless waves of internet eejits waving their peens about to make that much of a difference in the long run.

I feel for ya mucker...but after those few years of arguing the case, until something changes with either FDev's dealing with the toxic mentality of gankers or the PvP community crapping on their own doorstep to boot...your arguments should be pointed to the hotel California debate on DD which has been going for those 4 years already.

 

[Correct]

Ah another logging thread. "pvp'rs are cancer" - PvEr's "carebears ruined the game" - PvPr's Both sides have cancerous elements to it. Logging is against Fdev tos. menu logging isn't as some mods here advocate it. Fdev needs to draw a line in the sand and be done with it.

 

[Esquisite]

Guys... You'll find PvP isn't toxic. Most pvpers ain't interested in the PvP you have experienced.

Most pvpers don't look for ships unable to defend themselves.

 

[Deavo]

Well... I’ve seen some well thought out responses here. Then I’ve seen the pro-cheating responses. Cheating is cheating and needs fixing irrespective of what context it is. As for combat logging I personally think that they should extend the 15 seconds menu log to 30 and if someone disconnects then their ship should continue to take damage, maybe an NPC could take over until they come back? In the unlikely event it is a genuine drop of connection then they can submit a ticket to FDev, maybe add an in game ticket? Bottom line is FDev designed the game with a rebuy for a reason. Pulling the plug to avoid an in game mechanic is just wrong and can not be justified no matter what.

 

[verminstar]

not all logs are from toxic gameplay caused by the attacker. I pirate players and they log for the sake they can, yet two minutes later they are back in open or we can look at the vettes and cutters who have 111mill bounty and are killing players yet they are not willing to take the rebuy themselves it is an exploit and fdev need to work on a solution

I absolutely agree, I really do...I come from a pvp background so I do understand the frustration on both sides of the coin. Im a role player too and if its any consolation, I think being genuinely pirated from the perspective of the ¨victim¨ to be one the best examples of emergent gameplay in an open play environment.

Rest assured that while I do appear to be anti pvp, the reality is that is most absolutely not the case at all...if I wanted to avoid it entirely, I wouldnt be in open at all and I am in open 100% of my playtime nowadays. But then to my logic, not all pvp is pew pew...those who believe thats all it is or can be, have very little imagination I find. Its complicated and not entirely relevant.

But it sorta is in that the point Im trying to make is that its the toxicity itself which is the biggest anti climax and its by far the reason why its become an issue as regards clogging. The act of clogging itself being a direct consequence and reaction to that...imposing the law to come down hard on what is only technically breaking the rules is a fairly draconian knee jerk reaction that could potentially do more damage than it fixes. And it still does absolutely nothing to tackle the underlying reason why its an issue in the first place.

What, if anything...has been done to fix pvp play so they learn how to play nice? Because not all off them do...in fact Id go so far as to say that genuine role players who understand some self control are in my experience, the minority of pvp players. I do sympathize somewhat with the issue and agree, a solution does need to be found that suits all...but in this case, I think yer trying to fix the wrong issue. Its what caused this to become an issue in the first place ^

 

[Mole HD]

Guys... You'll find PvP isn't toxic. Most pvpers ain't interested in the PvP you have experienced.

Most pvpers don't look for ships unable to defend themselves.

I've experienced the good, the very good and utterly toxic varieties of PvP experience in this game...enjoyed the first 2 types, the third not so much. I'm in no way anti-PvP at all. The trouble is there's very little to distinguish the various types of PvP since engineers came along and didn't even give the benefit of a reach around before shafting the game for good, kicking any related skill factor out of locking horns with another player in the process.

It's engineers that drove me away from open, not PvP...both of them aren't mutually inclusive.

Combat logging? I Don't give a monkeys one way or another...this game has absolutely nothing to reward me for a kill streak, no leaderboards, no mention or importance at all...I can't even T-bag the kills for personal satisfaction.

Nobody cares in the slightest if I reckon I'm pretty good (or not)...if the mark logs, I chalk it up as a win and move on.

This is what I call PvP at it's ultimate... no god weapons, no shields and everyone has the same kit determined by era and not loot boxes. The game is in alpha at the moment...excuse the unfinished graphics.

Spoilers and sweary word warning.

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;GX54r_L67Yo]https://youtu.be/GX54r_L67Yo[/video]

 

[Freelancer Knux]

Unfortunately the only thing I've found which reduces the number of ppl clogging is using a small ship, which of course brings its own range of issues. Maybe if people wrapped their head around the idea that there is no difference between players and npcs besides skill in terms of gameplay, they would understand that clogging is just abandoning gameplay.

 

[Raven Blackwood]

Been playing this game for just over three years and hardly played anything else. I've always defended FD when others have slated them for lack of content etc. But this year I have completely lost confidence with FD. Combat Logging is, and has always been the single most talked about exploit in Elite. I genuinly thought they would've fixed this by now but they refuse to even talk about it (haven't even said the usual bull crap on this thread). I've hardly even logged in these last few months, I just can't be bothered wasting my time PVPing with people constantly cheating. Gets so boring and infuriating after the millionth time! and like the OP said, it is seriously at an all time high and out of control!

 

[Turkish]

All FD would need to do is just get rid of the ship rebuying feature, when killed by another player. However loss of cargo and pinned missions would still apply. It really is that simple... eliminates the reason why people log off in a fight. Nobody wants to re-do the horrific grind of starting over in a sidewinder.

If you die because of an npc then you deserve to be charged for a ship re-buy. Shameful...

The fix is so simple it's silly

 

[Hooplah]

This was resolved long ago but go ahead and keep complaining if it makes you feel good. Let's make sure that everyone knows what is considered legal and illegal.

Legal gameplay with additional variations possible. Some would argue these are illegal but this is the decision that Frontier made.

Win the interdiction mini-game - not interdicted
Submit, interdicted, boost, boost, low wake
Submit, interdicted, boost, boost, high wake, no mass lock - 15 sec timer
Don't submit, interdicted, increase FSD recharge times for the above
Menu log out - 15 second delay timer (can't remember if there is mass lock)

Illegal game play.

Physically disconnect the computer/console from the Internet

 

[Turkish]

This was resolved long ago but go ahead and keep complaining if it makes you feel good. Let's make sure that everyone knows what is considered legal and illegal.

Legal gameplay with additional variations possible. Some would argue these are illegal but this is the decision that Frontier made.

Win the interdiction mini-game - not interdicted
Submit, interdicted, boost, boost, low wake
Submit, interdicted, boost, boost, high wake, no mass lock - 15 sec timer
Don't submit, interdicted, increase FSD recharge times for the above
Menu log out - 15 second delay timer (can't remember if there is mass lock)

Illegal game play.

Physically disconnect the computer/console from the Internet

That's great and everything but FD didn't fix the issue. As in, nobody wants to stand and fight "logging" because they don't want to either start back off in a sidewinder, or loose Cr for the re-buy.

Soooo... just get rid of the rebuy when killed by another player. Then everyone can blow each other up with no consequences.

It's genius!!!

Eventually I'm going to need to start charging FD for my advice/counsel.

 

[Hairbear]

Solo and private group options are not hard to find on the main menu. I would advocate that anyone combat logging be forced into these modes for a certain amount of time after clogging. That way I can play the game the way I want and so can you, neither of us spoils the experience for the other. I just dont understand why you would play in open if you dont want interaction with hostile commanders.

 

[Hooplah]

That's great and everything but FD didn't fix the issue. As in, nobody wants to stand and fight "logging" because they don't want to either start back off in a sidewinder, or loose Cr for the re-buy.

Soooo... just get rid of the rebuy when killed by another player. Then everyone can blow each other up with no consequences.

It's genius!!!

Eventually I'm going to need to start charging FD for my advice/counsel.

Heck, I'd go for totally eliminate rebuys and also allow players to have multiple CMDR game saves! But that isn't EVER going to happen without a major rethink of the core programming. Then when killed the player (or game) reloads the last CMDR game save so there would be some loss (just like previous Elite game versions). However the dedicated immersion fans would go crazy, the Balance Police would have a fit and Frontier would lose sales on multiple accounts purchased by one player.

But if Frontier had developed the game in this direction it would have eliminated the desire for Single Player Offline working well the the servers, The BGS and a few less thousands of rants on the Forum starting with the response of 'Never Fly without a rebuy'. It would still be dangerous losing 80 million of exploration data returning to the bubble, many hours playing getting combat bonds, trading, mining. passengers etc. Oh well...Enjoy.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Solo and private group options are not hard to find on the main menu. I would advocate that anyone combat logging be forced into these modes for a certain amount of time after clogging. That way I can play the game the way I want and so can you, neither of us spoils the experience for the other. I just dont understand why you would play in open if you dont want interaction with hostile commanders.

Because a lot of loggers think they're an ace pilot. Then when it's shown they're not... "But I'm the best! You're not supposed to shoot me down! Reported."

Now that we have PG, there's no excuse for logging. If in Open, please prepare accordingly.