Powerplay should not be made Open-only. Here's why... [EDITED]

[Genar-Hofoen]

People!

Part of Powerplay is in fact that if you are pledged to one Power and you encounter another player who is pledged to a rival Power, you can in fact pew=pew them with impunity. That's a fact. No griefing involved, it's part of the game.

It's there to give a reason for engaging in direct PvP - right from the start in 2015.

So discussions on whether or not griefers want this or that or justified in this or that, aren't relevant to this thread. So everyone calm down

What is being discussed is laid out in the OP, and further in the thread the technicalities involved in trying to implement the change. That's it.

Regards o9

 

[Sterling MH]

This is actually a statement I completely agree with.

In War, by pledging to a side you are consenting to such... which is why I've always agreed with using PP as a possible framework for a consensual PvP flagging system.

Uh, the analogy is because they were claiming that anyone against it was going "Waaa waaa, can't take my stuff" and pointing out that we have volumes of law making exactly that thing illegal, so why is it wrong to say it?

People!

Part of Powerplay is in fact that if you are pledged to one Power and you encounter another player who is pledged to a rival Power, you can in fact pew=pew them with impunity.

No problem at all. But if you're PP in solo or PG, then you HAVEN'T agreed to PvP pewpew and to do so is griefing. And to demand that people HAVE to is to demand people get griefed.

Absolutely no problem with people going PP on open and pewpewing them till the clouds come home. Just let those who don't want pewpew to PP in PG or solo.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Uh, the analogy is because they were claiming that anyone against it was going "Waaa waaa, can't take my stuff" and pointing out that we have volumes of law making exactly that thing illegal, so why is it wrong to say it?

To be honest I'd love it if you'd stick to the premises laid out in the OP and subsequent discussion on the technical aspects and forget about comparisons with real life and whatnot

 

[Sterling MH]

To be honest I'd love it if you'd stick to the premises laid out in the OP and subsequent discussion on the technical aspects and forget about comparisons with real life and whatnot

I'd be happy to, but if you let big lies sit, they get believed, so you have to counter them. Get posts deleted that don't stay on topic.

 

[EUS]

People!

Part of Powerplay is in fact that if you are pledged to one Power and you encounter another player who is pledged to a rival Power, you can in fact pew=pew them with impunity. That's a fact. No griefing involved, it's part of the game.

It's there to give a reason for engaging in direct PvP - right from the start in 2015.

So discussions on whether or not griefers want this or that or justified in this or that, aren't relevant to this thread. So everyone calm down

What is being discussed is laid out in the OP, and further in the thread the technicalities involved in trying to implement the change. That's it.

Regards o9

Help me out here, i thought 1) killing was ok only when you're in your own system, and defending against other powers?
2) how does reputation and/or bounties/noteriety get affected by killing in my own system vs killing in enemy's system?
Anyone have a flow chart somewhere that show all the combinations of killings that affect rep, bounties, noteriety etc in relation to PP, 'cause I'm lost.

 

[Genus]

Why are you imputing morality into a spaceship game where you shoot stuff? Where does the griefing happen in powerplay? Also, PP is a warring scenario, if you're pledged one would assume you would expect to get shot at.

This is only valid if you limited your play to Solo. By it's very nature, morality becomes an issue and become a factor automatically, as soon as you enter Open and involve another end user.

Otherwise you're just pewing NPC's, which is your own problem in your own universe. It's a very telling point you made there.

However, because all modes are affected by the BGS, by default morality and ethical frameworks are in play and absolutely a factor from the moment you subscribe to a power.

I'm becoming convinced this is only an issue for those that leave their ethics at the door, and strive to find a universe of their own, hence wanting FD to put a load of bollards around Open.

It won't work.

 

[Sterling MH]

Exactly, thank you, now I don't have to respond to his posts anymore. The guy with his eyes shut and ears covered is telling other people they are too rigid. huh?

Uh, I sent FD a letter saying my cash was licensed and not sold and that it was possible to withdraw use of my money if they changed the product licensed. Since they didn't stop service, they accepted my EULA. Or they have no right to my money,in which case I get my cash back. Simples.

 

[kofeyh]

People!

Part of Powerplay is in fact that if you are pledged to one Power and you encounter another player who is pledged to a rival Power, you can in fact pew=pew them with impunity. That's a fact. No griefing involved, it's part of the game.

It's there to give a reason for engaging in direct PvP - right from the start in 2015.

So discussions on whether or not griefers want this or that or justified in this or that, aren't relevant to this thread. So everyone calm down

What is being discussed is laid out in the OP, and further in the thread the technicalities involved in trying to implement the change. That's it.

Regards o9

There's no stopping the crazy train. Powerplay is already being chalked up to greifing. Your only hope really us someone going full Godwin and the mods decide it's time for a break (have a kit-kat).

 

[Sterling MH]

This is only valid if you limited your play to Solo. By it's very nature, morality becomes an issue and become a factor automatically, as soon as you enter Open and involve another end user.

Otherwise you're just pewing NPC's, which is your own problem in your own universe.

It's a very telling point you made there.

Indeed. He sees other people the same way we see NPCs.

 

[Genus]

Indeed. He sees other people the same way we see NPCs.

Indeed.

 

[Sterling MH]

There's no stopping the crazy train. Powerplay is already being chalked up to greifing. Your only hope really us someone going full Godwin and the mods decide it's time for a break (have a kit-kat).

Uh, do you know what godwin's law is? There;s a corollary to it that claims someone will claim it in error just to win the argument by a fallacy (non sequitur). Go on, without checking on WP or rationalwiki, tell us what Godwin's law is.

Oh, and no, powerplay isn't being equated to griefing. Yet more evidence you do not read posts in THIS universe but the one that exists on the inside of your eyeballs, echoing round your skull.

Demanding PP be open only is a demand to make people get griefed.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Uh, the analogy is because they were claiming that anyone against it was going "Waaa waaa, can't take my stuff" and pointing out that we have volumes of law making exactly that thing illegal, so why is it wrong to say it?



No problem at all. But if you're PP in solo or PG, then you HAVEN'T agreed to PvP pewpew and to do so is griefing. And to demand that people HAVE to is to demand people get griefed.

Absolutely no problem with people going PP on open and pewpewing them till the clouds come home. Just let those who don't want pewpew to PP in PG or solo.

So, in Solo you can rack up game winning amounts of merits that can turn the tide of a weeks work.

By being in Solo you deny me the chance to kill you and deny your power those merits.

 

[kofeyh]

Uh, do you know what godwin's law is? There;s a corollary to it that claims someone will claim it in error just to win the argument by a fallacy (non sequitur). Go on, without checking on WP or rationalwiki, tell us what Godwin's law is.

With respect, stick to the topic.

 

[Goose4291]

This is actually a statement I completely agree with.

In War, by pledging to a side you are consenting to such... which is why I've always agreed with using PP as a possible framework for a consensual PvP flagging system.

The problem with using powerplay as a 'flag' for consensual pvp is that it the stymies the gameplay of pirates and PF vs PF stuff outside the scope of PP.

 

[vanya234]

This is only valid if you limited your play to Solo. By it's very nature, morality becomes an issue and become a factor automatically, as soon as you enter Open and involve another end user.

Otherwise you're just pewing NPC's, which is your own problem in your own universe.

It's a very telling point you made there.

Your underlying assumption is that morality is at play in a video game though. Mine is not. Obviously people will have differing opinions on that. The point is you're flagging yourself for war by pledging.

What do you mean by a very telling point?

At the end of the day, I think it's a technical design issue that happened back when PP was implemented and now it's a tricky situation. On one hand, solo PP takes away PvP from open players in pp because your opponent is invisible. On the other, taking pp away from solo is taking content away from solo players. I think there would have to be a vote to resolve it because I can't see how it can be solved design wise. Maybe high sec/low sec security spaces a la eve but I'm not sure

 

[Sterling MH]

So, in Solo you can rack up game winning amounts of merits

Yup. Guess what? In open you can rack up winning amounts of merits. And that means YOU WON OVER ME!!! And never once did we meet, me staying in Solo.

Your underlying assumption is that morality is at play in a video game though. Mine is not.

And THIS is why PvP and Open itself is NOT acceptible in ED. Open players throw their morality out the door and do not care. Play CQC instead.

 

[Genus]

What do you mean by a very telling point?

That's what I meant.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yup. Guess what? In open you can rack up winning amounts of merits. And that means YOU WON OVER ME!!! And never once did we meet, me staying in Solo.

I don't think you understand.

In Solo you can sit happily and never get molested by any other ship.

In Open those merits uncashed are like a ticking timebomb, so do you risk moving about (risking destruction) or do you cash them and lose the edge?

At least in Open its fair in that you can be killed. In Solo there is no pressure as you have no peers capable of killing you.

 

[Sterling MH]

With respect, stick to the topic.

Uh, you have no respect, so I don't believe you. Oh, and where were you with the other OTers? Silence was golden then because you either agreed with them or used something else on them.

 

[lefty1117]

Your underlying assumption is that morality is at play in a video game though. Mine is not. Obviously people will have differing opinions on that. The point is you're flagging yourself for war by pledging.

What do you mean by a very telling point?

At the end of the day, I think it's a technical design issue that happened back when PP was implemented and now it's a tricky situation. On one hand, solo PP takes away PvP from open players in pp because your opponent is invisible. On the other, taking pp away from solo is taking content away from solo players. I think there would have to be a vote to resolve it because I can't see how it can be solved design wise. Maybe high sec/low sec security spaces a la eve but I'm not sure

There is a suggestion floating around that the types of PP activities you can participate in can vary depend on the mode you're in. If you're solo/PG, there are the proposed mission interactions. If you're Open, it's the activities that are considered "pvp activities" such as undermining, fortifications. People seems to want to cross their arms and dig in and not consider any sort of compromise; from what I'm reading it seems mostly the "my game should be solo" crowd, but that's anecdotal. The community is at a crossroads on this issue and where it goes from here is going to result in some players either quitting, or other players that have already quit due to lack of MP integrity staying away.