Realistic Expectations

[Blackcompany]

The merry-go-round of half baked game mechanics, grinding, unbalanced gameplay continues rotating around at an slower and slower pace.

Occasionally the devs give a half hearted push to quiet the children sitting aboard the weather beaten horse carousels.

However the plans for exciting new fairground attractions seem to have gone from "Soon" to "would be nice but not something we are looking at for the foreseeable".

Time to get off the ride.

I would love you to have my stuff but unfortunately the overbearing GM doesnt trust players with agency in the game.

This pretty much sums it up. Mostly, meaningful interaction isn't happening. Neither are legs, or atmo planets. They just... aren't.

Instead, we got RNG and no effort to even TRY to make the Braben talked about.

 

[Andovar]

I would have to say that at least 200 hours of my play time has probably been me trying to prepare for what I thought the game was going to develop into. Gathering 600 million + credits and A rating all my ships in preparation for the atmospheric landings , hunting animals, gathering materials for trade etc.

None of that has come to fruition so I feel like those hours may have been wasted.

This mention of the cobra engine having to be redesigned to be able to handle atmospheric planets etc. Is there any truth to this? Link maybe?

Hey, everyone is free to play their way.
But spending a large chunk of your playtime preparing for content that has never even given a hint as to when it might be available (if at all), seems like a bizarre way to play a game.

 

[Quantis Trap]

I have played since launch, about 900 hours under my belt and that says it all, I have 900 hours played and its still increasing.

Boobie!

 

[babelfisch]

This mention of the cobra engine having to be redesigned to be able to handle atmospheric planets etc. Is there any truth to this? Link maybe?

Whoever said that has no idea what he is talking about. Of course they need to add some stuff like entry effects and adapt the flight model etc. But if they can add airless planets they can also add planets with atmospheres.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Whoever said that has no idea what he is talking about. Of course they need to add some stuff like entry effects and adapt the flight model etc. But if they can add airless planets they can also add planets with atmospheres.

Yup. It was someone on another thread who obviously had no idea what they were talking about.

 

[Jex =TE=]

[You can’t blame FDev for taking resources away from a 4 year old title that isn’t making large profits anymore and moving them to new IP's (Planet Coaster, Jurassic Park World).
Business is business, and it’s all about the profit margins at the end of the day.

Yes, actually you can and very much so given the tens of millions they made from the game. Sorry, but all that money came from hard working people for a game that was promised much like NMS and then never delivered. The blame squarely sits on the shoulders of FDev and I'm tired of the excuses being made for them.

I called your post back in 2014 after playing about 30 hours. I said there wasn't enough here and now, 4 years later the majority theme here is the game isn't immersive enough, there's nothing to do and it's all the same.

That never changed since day one.

You're also comparing apples and oranges with SC.

Star Citizen is a much larger project than ED could ever be. If we asked how long would it be to have legs, FPS combat, ship interiors and atmospheric planets that are seemless along with missions and squadron 42 - how long right now do you think it would take FDev - another 5 years? 6? 7? A game like Star Citizen was obviously going to take years and anyone looking at the bucket list of mechanics to be made AND then thinking it was going to be done in 4 years was simply clueless to game development or simply does not play games.

You can't play games for a few decades and not know what takes how long to make unless you stick your head in the sand. You should have at least some idea.

Also, let's cut the canard that FDev are poor little devs. How is it you've missed my posts stating they made well over $120 Million? Am I on your ignore list? I'd say by now it's closer to what SC has taken so pleeeeeeeeeeease stop with the FDev are poor and we should feel sorry for them. They took a butt ton of cash for ED and squandered it.

 

[Blackcompany]

Yes, actually you can and very much so given the tens of millions they made from the game. Sorry, but all that money came from hard working people for a game that was promised much like NMS and then never delivered. The blame squarely sits on the shoulders of FDev and I'm tired of the excuses being made for them.

I called your post back in 2014 after playing about 30 hours. I said there wasn't enough here and now, 4 years later the majority theme here is the game isn't immersive enough, there's nothing to do and it's all the same.

That never changed since day one.

You're also comparing apples and oranges with SC.

Star Citizen is a much larger project than ED could ever be. If we asked how long would it be to have legs, FPS combat, ship interiors and atmospheric planets that are seemless along with missions and squadron 42 - how long right now do you think it would take FDev - another 5 years? 6? 7? A game like Star Citizen was obviously going to take years and anyone looking at the bucket list of mechanics to be made AND then thinking it was going to be done in 4 years was simply clueless to game development or simply does not play games.

You can't play games for a few decades and not know what takes how long to make unless you stick your head in the sand. You should have at least some idea.

Also, let's cut the canard that FDev are poor little devs. How is it you've missed my posts stating they made well over $120 Million? Am I on your ignore list? I'd say by now it's closer to what SC has taken so pleeeeeeeeeeease stop with the FDev are poor and we should feel sorry for them. They took a butt ton of cash for ED and squandered it.

Spot on assessment.

Moreover, not only have the promised mechanics not been developed...fdev never even tried.

Where are criminal, exploration and mining careers, 4 years in? They have Virtually no game play. Combat is pointless, endless spawn horde mode...Rebel Galaxy has more meaningful combat engagements, and that was made by, like, two people.

And Fdev are to blame. They took and made tons of money based on promised game Mechanics, then made no effort to develop those mechanics, using that time for RNG Grind and Roller Coasters instead.

I didn't buy Elite, to pay for Planet Coaster. I bought the game I was promised. The one they have yet to START work on, beyond the Alpha state of the flight model and combat.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yes, actually you can and very much so given the tens of millions they made from the game. Sorry, but all that money came from hard working people for a game that was promised much like NMS and then never delivered. The blame squarely sits on the shoulders of FDev and I'm tired of the excuses being made for them.

I called your post back in 2014 after playing about 30 hours. I said there wasn't enough here and now, 4 years later the majority theme here is the game isn't immersive enough, there's nothing to do and it's all the same.

That never changed since day one.

You're also comparing apples and oranges with SC.

Star Citizen is a much larger project than ED could ever be. If we asked how long would it be to have legs, FPS combat, ship interiors and atmospheric planets that are seemless along with missions and squadron 42 - how long right now do you think it would take FDev - another 5 years? 6? 7? A game like Star Citizen was obviously going to take years and anyone looking at the bucket list of mechanics to be made AND then thinking it was going to be done in 4 years was simply clueless to game development or simply does not play games.

You can't play games for a few decades and not know what takes how long to make unless you stick your head in the sand. You should have at least some idea.

Also, let's cut the canard that FDev are poor little devs. How is it you've missed my posts stating they made well over $120 Million? Am I on your ignore list? I'd say by now it's closer to what SC has taken so pleeeeeeeeeeease stop with the FDev are poor and we should feel sorry for them. They took a butt ton of cash for ED and squandered it.

Spot on assessment.

Moreover, not only have the promised mechanics not been developed...fdev never even tried.

Where are criminal, exploration and mining careers, 4 years in? They have Virtually no game play. Combat is pointless, endless spawn horde mode...Rebel Galaxy has more meaningful combat engagements, and that was made by, like, two people.

And Fdev are to blame. They took and made tons of money based on promised game Mechanics, then made no effort to develop those mechanics, using that time for RNG Grind and Roller Coasters instead.

I didn't buy Elite, to pay for Planet Coaster. I bought the game I was promised. The one they have yet to START work on, beyond the Alpha state of the flight model and combat.

I believe these two are twins.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Yup. It was someone on another thread who obviously had no idea what they were talking about.

It was me. I didn't state it as fact, just my opinion based on Sandro's comment at Frontier Expo that they'd made some 'under the hood changes for the long term benefit of the game' (paraphrase slightly as I don't have the exact quote to hand on mobile).

Edit: 7m 30 secs here: https://youtu.be/5MYuX9vrP_o

I suspected they'd done so due to the addition of the upcoming new surface features, lighting changes, possible introduction of clouds etc in gas giants and the possibility of atmosphereric landings - all of which could be more demanding than what we have already.

I believe these two are twins.

It's always amusing to see SC tropes.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Spot on assessment.

Moreover, not only have the promised mechanics not been developed...fdev never even tried.

Where are criminal, exploration and mining careers, 4 years in? They have Virtually no game play. Combat is pointless, endless spawn horde mode...Rebel Galaxy has more meaningful combat engagements, and that was made by, like, two people.

And Fdev are to blame. They took and made tons of money based on promised game Mechanics, then made no effort to develop those mechanics, using that time for RNG Grind and Roller Coasters instead.

I didn't buy Elite, to pay for Planet Coaster. I bought the game I was promised. The one they have yet to START work on, beyond the Alpha state of the flight model and combat.

Well hold on a minute.

ED was also kickstarted to the tune of £1.6 million (so about $2 Million) which Soon is aware of as he was a backer. So it's not like FDev risked their own money. Nope, they decided to come for ours and by taking everyone's money they already submitted themselves to a contract - they then failed to deliver.

I should also point out that as far as I can tell from my 30 second google search, No Man's Sky didn't even have a KS. That's actually one up for them - not much btw but if they'd used a KS as well it would have made it twice as bad.

So FDev come begging for money that they didn't need just so they could use ED and the nostalgia we had to make a game on the cheap just so they could move on to make crap games like PC and JW? Yes, management games are fun but they're just that - there's no personal engagment like you get with a game like ED.

They then took that money, the KS and then pretended to design the game around what the players wanted. Look at our KS videos! Look how we're lying in them. Look at the DDF - look at all the lies there! I mean what else do you call them? Here, we're going to make this game with these features - which turns into an entirely different game with not even a hint of developing those features - you know, the ones every backed?

And the really stupid thing is that if that had made the game that the KS had along with the DDF plus other ideas along the same lines it would have made even more money. How do I know that - well Braben himself said the average play time is 60 hours.

For an MMO that's about as bad as you can make it.

 

[Blackcompany]

Well hold on a minute.

ED was also kickstarted to the tune of £1.6 million (so about $2 Million) which Soon is aware of as he was a backer. So it's not like FDev risked their own money. Nope, they decided to come for ours and by taking everyone's money they already submitted themselves to a contract - they then failed to deliver.

I should also point out that as far as I can tell from my 30 second google search, No Man's Sky didn't even have a KS. That's actually one up for them - not much btw but if they'd used a KS as well it would have made it twice as bad.

So FDev come begging for money that they didn't need just so they could use ED and the nostalgia we had to make a game on the cheap just so they could move on to make crap games like PC and JW? Yes, management games are fun but they're just that - there's no personal engagment like you get with a game like ED.

They then took that money, the KS and then pretended to design the game around what the players wanted. Look at our KS videos! Look how we're lying in them. Look at the DDF - look at all the lies there! I mean what else do you call them? Here, we're going to make this game with these features - which turns into an entirely different game with not even a hint of developing those features - you know, the ones every backed?

And the really stupid thing is that if that had made the game that the KS had along with the DDF plus other ideas along the same lines it would have made even more money. How do I know that - well Braben himself said the average play time is 60 hours.

For an MMO that's about as bad as you can make it.

That's harsh, but a fair, accurate assessment of the situation as it stands. This is pretty much how it all went down.

And yeah... average of 60 hours for a huge online game, is BAD. That is very telling.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Well hold on a minute.

ED was also kickstarted to the tune of £1.6 million (so about $2 Million) which Soon is aware of as he was a backer. So it's not like FDev risked their own money. Nope, they decided to come for ours and by taking everyone's money they already submitted themselves to a contract - they then failed to deliver.

The kickstarter money was nowhere near enough to cover the original release and Frontier went over their initial budget by a considerable amount of money for 1.0 to be released.

"The original budget, because we put a lot of our money towards it, was £8m," David Braben - the man in charge - told me at Gamescom. And, he added, "it's grown by quite a lot".

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-09-11-elite-dangerous-original-budget-was-8m

 

[Barking_Mad]

It's sad but not surprising to see the same people making ill informed assertions despite having a history of saying 'those other two space games would knock Elite into a cocked hat' upon release. Years later, they're still wrong, but no mea culpa. I guess you have to admire their determination.

 

[Jex =TE=]

That's harsh, but a fair, accurate assessment of the situation as it stands. This is pretty much how it all went down.

And yeah... average of 60 hours for a huge online game, is BAD. That is very telling.

The truth isn't harsh, it's the truth. If it sounds harsh and awful - well we know who is to blame for that feeling, right?

 

[Soon(TM)]

Hey, everyone is free to play their way.
But spending a large chunk of your playtime preparing for content that has never even given a hint as to when it might be available (if at all), seems like a bizarre way to play a game.

I don't agree, I read the DDF, I watched the development videos.
A lot was promised that has yet to materialize.

Back then, I thought we would get that stuff, because DBOBE himself said these things in videos and the Devs actively spoke about things in the DDF.

I don't see what's wrong with preparing your "character" for future updates in a game when you were told they were going to happen.

 

[krylite]

It was me. I didn't state it as fact, just my opinion based on Sandro's comment at Frontier Expo that they'd made some 'under the hood changes for the long term benefit of the game' (paraphrase slightly as I don't have the exact quote to hand on mobile).

Edit: 7m 30 secs here: https://youtu.be/5MYuX9vrP_o

I suspected they'd done so due to the addition of the upcoming new surface features, lighting changes, possible introduction of clouds etc in gas giants and the possibility of atmosphereric landings - all of which could be more demanding than what we have already.

I also believe there are hints and signs to support this opinion. From some of the job listings on the Frontier, careers page:

https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/859
"this includes both new additions to Frontier’s popular lines of games such as Elite Dangerous and Planet Coaster, "
"Building, extending and supporting an enhanced VFX pipeline for the COBRA engine"

https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/programming/animation-programmer
" Expanding and improving animation technology within the COBRA engine and supporting tools."

https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/857
"Frontier’s in-house Cobra engine is highly adaptable"
"Building, extending and supporting the visual pipelines for the COBRA engine"
"to bring these to life as well as dealing with technologies like HDR, atmospherics, lighting, tone-mapping and other visual technologies."

https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/858
"exciting opportunity for a Principal Network Programmer working on Elite Dangerous, our highly successful AAA title."
"for development of features running on the game server. You will help to populate the galaxy with ever more intricate locations,"
"to implement game features with server-side components"
"Supporting new content being created for server-side systems"
"driving improvements to the game network architecture"
"and personalise the experience that each player has exploring new frontiers."


Overall, it was mentioned the cobra engine was "adaptable" which could mean modified for a particular game like for ED, PC, or JWE individually. The cobra engine may also need some additional network functioning to accommodate atmospheric world details which could have some server side assets. It's one thing to have an atmospheric area of a few km of the JWE park area, but then the game becomes more like FlightSimulatorX when loading an entire globe and transitioning from higher altitude to lower altitude for a possibly populated ELW & atmospheric world among potentially millions.

As for the DDF, I'd thought all those extras were stretch goals to come in the ten-year planning. Having played FFE years ago, ED as it is now is such an amazing upgrade from FFE and a high bar setting achievement. It's just amazing to see the backdrop based on the galaxy model. And being able to warp to objects in a solar system in a ftl way more star trek than the trek games themselves. Yes, there could be more done, new kinds of CZ's and such, but I think FD have to go by priorities in dev work as always, and imo the hope is better turning this corner of Beyond than last year with signs of further commitment to ED by Frontier. I also thought the newer assassination missions with Beyond was a good new type of combat scenario such as the ones with a pirate lord with a bunch of escorts.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I don't agree, I read the DDF, I watched the development videos.
A lot was promised that has yet to materialize.

Back then, I thought we would get that stuff, because DBOBE himself said these things in videos and the Devs actively spoke about things in the DDF.

I don't see what's wrong with preparing your "character" for future updates in a game when you were told they were going to happen.

But that doesn't mean it's definitely not coming either. IMO we'll get lots more stuff from the DDF, especially the planet types. I can't see the game being unfinished in that respect. Other stuff... who knows but I don't share the pessimism of some. I just try to be pragmatic about it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I also believe there are hints and signs to support this opinion. From some of the job listings on the Frontier, careers page:

https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/859
"this includes both new additions to Frontier’s popular lines of games such as Elite Dangerous and Planet Coaster, "
"Building, extending and supporting an enhanced VFX pipeline for the COBRA engine"

https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/programming/animation-programmer
" Expanding and improving animation technology within the COBRA engine and supporting tools."

https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/857
"Frontier’s in-house Cobra engine is highly adaptable"
"Building, extending and supporting the visual pipelines for the COBRA engine"
"to bring these to life as well as dealing with technologies like HDR, atmospherics, lighting, tone-mapping and other visual technologies."

Overall, it was mentioned the cobra engine was "adaptable" which could mean modified for a particular game like for ED and PC.

Cheers, not seen that. Might be relevant, might not but non-atmosoheres was a pretty big technical challenge and if you're adding extra load on the engine with more complex planet types (I'm not referring to Earth-likes here) then it might require some changes to the Elite version of Cobra, which is non identical (but of course very similar) to PC and JP.

Just my opinion and guesswork mind.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It was me. I didn't state it as fact, just my opinion based on Sandro's comment at Frontier Expo that they'd made some 'under the hood changes for the long term benefit of the game' (paraphrase slightly as I don't have the exact quote to hand on mobile).

Edit: 7m 30 secs here: https://youtu.be/5MYuX9vrP_o

I suspected they'd done so due to the addition of the upcoming new surface features, lighting changes, possible introduction of clouds etc in gas giants and the possibility of atmosphereric landings - all of which could be more demanding than what we have already.



It's always amusing to see SC tropes.

Nope wasn't you. And it isn't re-writing the engine, more like adding enhancements to the engine that is there. That also includes the lighting update as well.

Basically it was someone saying that FDev should scrap ED and make ED2 with another engine which makes no sense at all.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Star Citizen is a much larger project than ED could ever be. If we asked how long would it be to have legs, FPS combat, ship interiors and atmospheric planets that are seemless along with missions and squadron 42 - how long right now do you think it would take FDev - another 5 years? 6? 7? A game like Star Citizen was obviously going to take years and anyone looking at the bucket list of mechanics to be made AND then thinking it was going to be done in 4 years was simply clueless to game development or simply does not play games.

Lol, still this?

"SC is such an amazing game with such amazing scope! You cant expect it to be done after [current number of years in development]! We have always known it wont be done before [current year +2]! Its amazing and way beyond anything else! Anyone who wonders why after almost 200m and half a decade they still dont have any functioning gameloop, not even a single working solar system, no functioning AI, no physics system, a netcode that crashes with more than six players and performance around 15FPS doesnt understand game development!"

Looking forward to hear you copy&paste the above again in 2022 with updated years, while still hanging around here. [haha]