Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

[Viajero]

Personally, I don't question Frontier's intent. I believe they will deliver what they have promised. I do however, agree with the people who have said Frontier are taking far too long to deliver. I also completley understand people's frustration.

"Far too long" I guess is a personal appreciation, hard to generalize. Personally I think for the dev team size assigned to Elite (my guess, probably somewhere around 100+ or so) they have been releasing content fairly regularly and consistently especially when you compare that content volume and frequency with other games´ updates.

Now, what I really see the issue being here often is that you personally may prefer other content instead first (say, space legs!). When someone prefers other content first or does not like what is being released he/she will tend to ignore and handwave that content and therefore consider that they are not delivering at all or taking far too long as a whole.

 

[Devari]

Can you please link when the planned time for Horizons was announced?

Were you around when Horizons was actually launched? It was very clear based on the release schedule for the individual expansions in Horizons that the goal was to have it released within a year. There were numerous posts and even some articles going into detail about delays at the time, including the reasons for them.

I'll see if you can find the article I'm referring to here. It should be easy to do if you know what I'm referring to. If you don't, then you need to read up on it.

 

[Viajero]

You can't compare beta or kickstarter prices to the full price of a retail product. That makes zero sense. You need to compare the 2015 LEP prices with the 2015 cost of Horizons. That is the only comparison that makes any sense here.

Out of curiosity, do you have an idea or guess about how many LEP passes where sold in 2015, and how that number compares to the overall number of game units sold? Just so to put things a bit in perspective.

 

[Viajero]

Were you around when Horizons was actually launched? It was very clear based on the release schedule for the individual expansions in Horizons that the goal was to have it released within a year. There were numerous posts and even some articles going into detail about delays at the time, including the reasons for them.

I'll see if you can find the article I'm referring to here. It should be easy to do if you know what I'm referring to. If you don't, then you need to read up on it.

I was indeed, and that is why I ask. It is a very simple question that I see you have not answered yet: Can you please link when the planned time for Horizons was announced?

 

[Devari]

@ Devari.

I see that you are accusing other posters of not understanding your point(s). Again.

That would be because my posts are either being intentionally misrepresented (i.e., trolling) or are simply not understood. Again.

I just wondered if you need someone to explain the meaning of 'Lifetime' to you? Seeing as you don't seem to understand that word.

"Lifetime" has a wide range of specific meanings depending on the context. With a "lifetime warranty" that usually refers to the usual lifetime of the product but that can vary depending on the context. Sometimes it can refer to providing something specific for a person's natural lifetime especially for certain policies such as pensions or other insurance benefits. In some cases it refers to a defined expected lifetime for the items that is limited to a certain number of years rather than having an unlimited duration. In certain cases a "lifetime" policy is even transferrable to another owner. You aren't actually asking a specific question here, though, are you?

Assuming you're not just trolling, obviously the LEP for Elite refers to the active development "lifetime" of the game. That should be inherently obvious and should require no actual explanation. In practical terms that is generally around 5 years for most games, which usually aren't actively developed beyond that point even if they are still playable by maintaining the servers. It should be obvious here that Elite is not going to have a "lifetime" of 16 years or even 10 years of active development at this rate which creates a very real problem for how the value of a $180 LEP is going to be actually delivered over the development lifetime of the game.

I was indeed, and that is why I ask. It is a very simple question that I see you have not answered yet: Can you please link when the planned time for Horizons was announced?

Can you please link the article I referred to where they discussed the planned timetable for the expansion and the fact that it was being delayed? The answer to your question should be immediately obvious if you show me that you've read the article. If you can't do that, or are unwilling to do so, then I assume you haven't actually read it and are simply trolling.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Were you around when Horizons was actually launched? It was very clear based on the release schedule for the individual expansions in Horizons that the goal was to have it released within a year. There were numerous posts and even some articles going into detail about delays at the time, including the reasons for them.

I'll see if you can find the article I'm referring to here. It should be easy to do if you know what I'm referring to. If you don't, then you need to read up on it.

No it wasn't. 2.3 was scheduled for the autumn I believe. 2.4 was TBC. So we had no idea when 2.4 was going to fall.

 

[Viajero]

Can you please link the article I referred to where they discussed the planned timetable for the expansion and the fact that it was being delayed? The answer to your question should be immediately obvious if you show me that you've read the article. If you can't do that, or are unwilling to do so, then I assume you haven't actually read it and are simply trolling.

Ok, let´s recap the sequence of events so far in our conversation:

Devari: Horizons had a very clear planned duration time
Viajero: Citation needed
Devari: No, you search for it.

Ok!

 

[Devari]

Ok, let´s recap the sequence of events so far in our conversation:



Ok!

I'm happy to post the link and quote if you answer one simple question. Do you honestly not know what the original release timetable was for Horizons? Are you genuinely unaware that the original release schedule was to deliver Horizons content within a single year?

It's an honest question. If you not trolling here and are asking a legitimate question, that's fine, but usually when someone asks for a "link" or "citation" they are simply trolling because they either already know the answer, and are hoping that the individual can't find it, or they are hoping that the content doesn't exist, and therefore can't be provided. If you are legitimately asking the question because you don't know, that's fine, I'll happily provide the link and quote for you.

 

[Viajero]

This is the important point. So why are those who feel it is too slow being told they're wrong and have no right to feel frustrated with what they bought?

I do not think I have said anything of the sort. Everyone is perfectly entitled to like or not like stuff. And there is a very simple course of action to respond to that in a given market. I am just pointing out that I do not think the problem is that there is no regular delivery of content (especially when compared to other games), but that you may prefer other content first instead. On that point I guess it is going to take sort of a miracle to ensure all players align on an opinion.

 

[Viajero]

I'm happy to post the link and quote if you answer one simple question. Do you honestly not know what the original release timetable was for Horizons?

I do!

... the original release schedule was to deliver Horizons content within a single year?

That is the part I think we disagree on, I am afraid.

 

[Devari]

I do!



That is the part I think we disagree on, I am afraid.

Here you go: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-03-03-elite-dangerous-horizons-full-launch-delayed

"Elite: Dangerous Horizons' original schedule set 2.2 - Guardians for summer 2016, and 2.3 - The Commanders for autumn 2016. 2.4, which currently does not have an announced name, did not have a release window. It seems safe to assume all three have now been pushed back."

That is all of the core Horizons content up to 2.3 originally planned for Autumn 2016, with 2.4 presumably delivered before the end of 2016 given the rate of 2.1-2.3 content. That never happened, it was pushed back multiple times and delayed so that we didn't get Horizons content delivered until the end of 2017.

 

[Viajero]

Here you go: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-03-03-elite-dangerous-horizons-full-launch-delayed

"Elite: Dangerous Horizons' original schedule set 2.2 - Guardians for summer 2016, and 2.3 - The Commanders for autumn 2016. 2.4, which currently does not have an announced name, did not have a release window. It seems safe to assume all three have now been pushed back."

That is all of the core Horizons content up to 2.3 originally planned for Autumn 2016, with 2.4 presumably delivered before the end of 2016 given the rate of 2.1-2.3 content. That never happened, it was pushed back multiple times and delayed so that we didn't get Horizons content delivered until the end of 2017.

Sorry, I am confused, you are citing eurogamer and their speculations, and things are getting a bit mixed up with the early access bit also.

Can you please cite FDEV´s announcement for the Horizons timetable?

 

[Devari]

Out of curiosity, do you have an idea or guess about how many LEP passes where sold in 2015, and how that number compares to the overall number of game units sold? Just so to put things a bit in perspective.

None of us have access to this type of information, that is internal financial details that only Braben and FD have access to. We have numerous detailed financial information in terms of total Elite revenue from their Annual reports, and there are many quotes that refer to the total "unit sales" for Elite (which as of Aug. 2017 exceeded 2.75 million sales) but we have no way of knowing how many LEPs were sold or what prices were paid for each of them.

 

[Devari]

Sorry, I am confused, you are citing eurogamer and their speculations, and things are getting a bit mixed up with the early access bit also.

Can you please cite FDEV´s announcement for the Horizons timetable?

Sorry but that article wasn't "speculation". It included quoted comments from Braben where he tried to explain Horizons was delayed. It is an entirely legitimate reference.

I can now confirm that you are, in fact, trolling which shouldn't really surprise me given that is what I originally suspected.

I give you 0/10 for your trolling efforts. Once someone clearly provides a quoted reference that's when you usually stop asking for a reference, because you were literally just given one.

 

[Stigbob]

This is the important point. So why are those who feel it is too slow being told they're wrong and have no right to feel frustrated with what they bought?

Because there was no set timeline other than the one people invented for themselves, and the game hasn't yet reached the end of it's life. We are also in the middle of getting free new stuff and we know more DLC is coming.

So "gah we are not getting anything scam legal action microwave lasagna" is obviously not the case, if you said "I thought it would be quicker" lots of people would probably agree.

It boils down to "are we there yet" everything else is just noise.

 

[Devari]

It boils down to "are we there yet" everything else is just noise.

It doesn't take particularly complicated mathematics however to see that FD can't possibly produce another $135 worth of paid LEP content before the game reaches the end of its useful development life unless they put absolutely massive amounts of resources and devs into paid-content development mode. We're talking three more Horizons-level expansions, i.e., three full years of paid content. FD struggled to get Horizons out the door in 2 years and that was by shoveling features such as multipew in place of the original plans they laid out for multicrew. These paid expansions are also going to need to include substantive features given that the LEP described space legs, boarding actions and landing on inhabited worlds as planned future content. They are running out of time to deliver that promised content that was clearly described when they were selling the LEP.

Do you seriously think that's even possible given how badly FD has neglected Elite development so far? There are two competing IPs, Planet Coaster and JWE, and there are almost certainly going to be more new IPs that need resources over the next few years. Do you honestly believe that FD is going to put out another three Horizons-level, paid-content expansions before the development lifetime of Elite is over? It's maybe technically possible to accomplish this but only if Braben woke up tomorrow morning and made it his absolute number one priority and goal at FD to make this happen, i.e., to use all of his efforts to turn Elite development around. I think it is more likely that he will be abducted by Thargoids than having that happen.

 

[Viajero]

None of us have access to this type of information, that is internal financial details that only Braben and FD have access to. We have numerous detailed financial information in terms of total Elite revenue from their Annual reports, and there are many quotes that refer to the total "unit sales" for Elite (which as of Aug. 2017 exceeded 2.75 million sales) but we have no way of knowing how many LEPs were sold or what prices were paid for each of them.

Indeed. The issue in terms of value or delivery about the LPE is more often brought up for those who bought it at a premium during 2015.

As you correctly point out we do not know how many were sold then but what we do know is that during that 2015 the LEP started selling in August and stopped selling on September, if memory serves. So it was on sale barely over a few weeks there.

Not trying to argue either way here, but just so to try and put this in perspective of a game that as you say has sold already millions of basic units over 4-5 years.

 

[Devari]

Indeed. The issue in terms of value or delivery about the LPE is more often brought up for those who bought it at a premium during 2015. As you correctly point out we do not know how many were sold then but what we do know is that during that 2015 the LEP started selling in August and stopped selling on September, if memory serves.

Just so to try and put this in perspective of a game that as you say has sold already millions of basic units over 4-5 years.

It's the principle of it. I don't even own an LEP and can see this is a massive PR issue for FD. It doesn't matter if one person bought a $180 LEP or if hundreds of people bought it. The issue is about whether FD is going to address the issue adequately.

The problem with Battlefront 2 and lootboxes wasn't about how many people actually bought lootboxes. That was irrelevant. The issue was how EA was treating their customers.

 

[amigacooke]

Can you please cite FDEV´s announcement for the Horizons timetable?

Having produced four updates in the first year, can you please cite where Frontier said that Horizons would be a two year project?

My dodgy memory recalls that when Horizons first went on the store (or shop for the British) as well as the macOS version, it said that there would be an update in each season, spring, summer, autumn and winter.

If people have expectations based on previous experience I don't think that's unreasonable. After all, we are the buyers and Frontier do need a flow of income.

 

[LeoBartlet]

It boils down to "are we there yet" everything else is just noise.

Exactly this.

My 10yo is far more patient than the people around here.