Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

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I don't think mathematics applies to retail products in the way you think it does.

Without labouring the point, retail products are worth what customers are prepared to pay for them. ;)

lol I was gonna mention cost price to him but I fear he might have got confused then worked out that frontier owed LEP holders more than 4 expansions.
 
That because, of, if they say, that they will not intend to so, and will be no end product delivery, such statement will automatically fall into criminal law.

So they are damned if they do say they are and they are damned if they don't regardless of whether they are going to deliver or not.

Can you guys actually hear yourselves. This forum is turning into a nut house.
 
I'll ask again - do you need someone to explain 'Lifetime' to you?

We already went into this. Are you actually reading the posts in this thread? The LEP refers to the development lifetime of the product and it is rather obvious that Elite is not going to have a development lifetime of 10-16 years which is what would be needed at this point to deliver enough paid content at their current rate of development.
 
'We intend' v 'we promise'. Honestly. That one was an especially desperate attempt to muddy the waters.
Err, we have separate words which mean different things, you know?

People keep bringing legalese up - well, they will have to learn particularities of what particular words mean if they ever actually intended to go that legal route (and its not a lot of forum hot air, as usual).
 
We already went into this. Are you actually reading the posts in this thread? The LEP refers to the development lifetime of the product and it is rather obvious that Elite is not going to have a development lifetime of 10-16 years which is what would be needed at this point to deliver enough paid content at their current rate of development.

How is it obvious. Do you know what the player numbers will be like in five years time or ten? Nobody knows. For all we know it may continue to be developed for another 20 years or so as long as the player numbers stay up.
 
If you think the semantic difference between two words would act as a defence, you would find yourself in a state of surprise. Please stop now. It's becoming really silly.

...

I never suggested they are currently in breach of anything.

Now who's been silly? Why bring big scary Consumer Protection act at all? Surely not to ominously allude that FDev doing something nefarious? While in fact they are not?

Some LEP purchasers will have to admit that they've made a mistake and didn't fully understood what they've paid for back then, and accept the certain degree of disappointment, hard and emotionally-wrecking it may be. /s
 
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That because, of, if they say, that they will not intend to so, and will be no end product delivery, such statement will automatically fall into criminal law.

Unless of course the end date hasn't been reached, it which case you'll get told to stop wasting everyone's time.
 
Err, we have separate words which mean different things, you know?

Where did my mechanic literally "promise" to do specific work on my car? It was a very clear intention that was the entire basis of the financial transaction that occurred. Based on your suggestion however he never "promised" anything to me as in he literally did not make a "promise" using those specific words. Are you somehow suggesting that he could get out of actually fixing my car, after accepting payment, by saying he never "promised" to fix my car and that is was only his "intention" to do so?

I mean seriously. You are not making FD look good here if you are resorting to that level of abject nonsense. You are describing a type of "argument" that even EA wouldn't attempt and they have set the bar exceptionally low.

People keep bringing legalese up - well, they will have to learn particularities of what particular words mean if they ever actually intended to go that legal route (and its not a lot of forum hot air, as usual).

How many times have you seen someone get out of a legal obligation where money was exchanged by claiming they "never promised" to follow through with a transaction where the product they were selling was clearly described. How is that somehow even a remotely reasonable argument? It's just so ridiculous that I can't believe that anyone is honesty trying to use that as a defence. It sounds like something a child would try to argue to get out of some sort of obligation, like after they clearly agreed to do certain chores for their allowance and tried to claim they "never promised they would do those chores" after accepting the money.
 
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That's why they won't say it, easy.
I understand some LEP owners may feel uncomfortable that they've paid for something which gives FDev so much wiggle room - but its just as is.

Not like FDev is inventing something here. I've seen so much controversies/online drama going with "Season passes" in various games...

You able to send them official letter (hard copy letter, with order number, etc, to the law address of shop, which sold you ), and ask all questions about product, and estimated dates, and they will have to answer you.
 
the way I am seeing things at the moment is that FD changed their idea of how to roll out expansions from a pre-paid wait and see model to a DLC model.

Changing to that strategy would require some time for development of said DLC (lets say a year) - now to keep the content rolling, FD decided that instead of making us wait that full year for the next DLC they (very kindly) chose to improve what we already had and add a few little bonuses along the way, to pass the time so to say (all free to Horizons owners)

Now in my head that makes sense ..
 
It's just so ridiculous that I can't believe that anyone is honesty trying to use that as a defence. It sounds like something a child would try to argue to get out of some sort of obligation, like after they clearly agreed to do certain chores for their allowance and tried to claim they "never promised they would do those chores" after accepting the money.
Listen, I am not "defending" anything here and we are not in some kind of internet court.

All I am saying is why FDev ignores the noise makers - they know very well nothing will come out of it which will actually affect them. I've been here since KS and DDF times.

You able to send them official letter (hard copy letter, with order number, etc, to the law address of shop, which sold you ), and ask all questions about product, and estimated dates, and they will have to answer you.
What's stopping all these dissatisfied people then? Because absolutely no one done it yet.
 
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Listen, I am not "defending" anything here and we are not in some kind of internet court.

All I am saying is why FDev ignores the noise makers - they know very well nothing will come out of it which will actually affect them. I've been here since KS and DDF times.

Trying to argue that FD doesn't have any obligations for actually developing LEP content as if there's a legal difference between "intent" and "promise" after you've accepted someone's money is utter nonsense and you have been trying to make that exact "argument" here. The reason that FD is ignoring the situation is most likely because they have no adequate response yet, i.e., they have not made adequate progress on space legs, boarding actions or inhabited planets to fulfil their obligations, and actually admitting this would produce extremely bad PR for FD. Unfortunately considering the number of threads that are created on this topic on a regular basis the issue is not simply going away.
 
Apologies, i didn't see the first 2. I don't think they have breached the act at this stage. I've made that point throughout. I was arguing about the notion of whether LEP customers can reasonably expect content under the terms of sale as opposed to the argument that it was a gamble (and, crucially under Consumer Protection laws, that it was reasonably understood to be a gamble by customers). I never suggested they are currently in breach of anything.

Glad we cleared that up. [up]

Genuinely, I have a lot of sympathy for LEP'ers and I think it benefits ALL players that we have LEP'ers to keep nudging FDev to remind them of their obligations.

I just think it's counter-productive to try and draw comparisons between, say, being sold an empty box which claimed to contain food or to using counterfeit money.

FDev have provided a product so the game obviously isn't an "empty box" scam, they are continuing to update it which demonstrates an ongoing commitment to the product, they have provided DLC - albeit more infrequently than was originally planned - and they do continue to make noises about future updates and DLC.

As has often been said, FDev's biggest problem is that they aren't good at striking a balance between creating suspense and generating publicity.
Personally, I reckon this a combination of them often not really having a "big plan" but also because they know any promises they make will come back to haunt them.

This culture, on both sides, is proving to be toxic and FDev need to learn to be more open while us customers need to learn to be more tolerant.
 
Trying to argue that FD doesn't have any obligations for actually developing LEP content
They do have certain obligations to keep ongoing development in good faith (and try to proove they didn't have good faith) - but they are no under contractual agreement to deliver specific features and/or adhere to specific timeline, or even to give scheduled roadmap releases.

Unfortunately considering the number of threads that are created on this topic on a regular basis the issue is not simply going away.
I don't believe they consider number of threads a notable issue ;)
They probably pay closer attention to sales stats.
 
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I just think it's counter-productive to try and draw comparisons between, say, being sold an empty box which claimed to contain food or to using counterfeit money.

Unfortunately that is the level of argument that is being used to defend the lack of progress on paid LEP content. People have actually tried to "defend" FD by suggesting the LEP was a "gamble" (which is obviously was not) or that they never "promised" to deliver the content (which they did) or similar utterly ludicrous arguments to defend FD's lack of content. The irony here is that FD almost certainly does not want those types of claims being made. The rabid defence of FD that we're seeing in this thread works counter to FD's purposes here as it makes them look as if they never intended to develop the product they sold. That is exactly the narrative that FD does not want, and yet it is basically the argument that some people are trying to use to "defend" FD. Those individuals are not doing FD any favors here, they are setting up an absolutely ludicrous "justification" for an issue that FD will needs to handle with proper communication and transparency. In fact FD will probably have a considerably more difficult task at this point because of how much utter nonsense has been used in this thread to "defend" them.
 
Apologies, i didn't see the first 2. I don't think they have breached the act at this stage. I've made that point throughout. I was arguing about the notion of whether LEP customers can reasonably expect content under the terms of sale as opposed to the argument that it was a gamble (and, crucially under Consumer Protection laws, that it was reasonably understood to be a gamble by customers). I never suggested they are currently in breach of anything.

That's the thing, everyone gets you want news about upcoming content. Specific dates or content details or whatever and we are all looking forward to news about upcoming content. It's just some of us are more blasé about it and recognize that it's not an exact science and may be subject to change and a massively inaccurate estimate can be worse than no estimate.

By dressing "can we have an update" up with fake legal threats in an attempt to scare FDEV into giving you what you want (which is exactly what's going on here) you actually detract from your question because the thread goes all comedy internet lawyer and no-one anywhere takes any of it seriously.
 
They do have certain obligations to keep ongoing development in good faith (and try to proove they didn't have good faith) - but they are no under contractual agreement to deliver specific features and/or adhere to specific timeline, or even to give scheduled roadmap releases.

They are very much required to deliver the content they've described if they want to keep someone's $180 LEP that they collected. If they don't develop that content, then they have to give at least a pro-rated portion of that money back, which as this point is $135 worth of paid content they have not yet delivered. How do you think it works when you purchase a product exactly? That the retailer has the option of not delivering it to you? Where did you get that idea from exactly?

I don't believe they consider number of threads a notable issue ;)
They probably pay closer attention to sales stats.

Which is part of the problem here. FD is run with the goal of maximizing shareholder profits and as a result they frequently ignore massive customer relations issues until the community has reached a critical mass of resentment and frustration.
 
I miss the content, too.
Not because I'm overly sensitive about the money I paid, but because I don't feel there is a progression in development.

New exciting addons to the game also mean a chance for FDEV to create more revenue from those who don't have the passes.

I thought there would be an addon every year, which would also finance the servers.
 
How is it obvious. Do you know what the player numbers will be like in five years time or ten? Nobody knows. For all we know it may continue to be developed for another 20 years or so as long as the player numbers stay up.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who purchased an LEP for $180 with the description of specific planned content should wait 20 years to see it delivered? Do you realize how ludicrous that suggestion is?
 
They are very much required to deliver the content they've described if they want to keep someone's $180 LEP that they collected. If they don't develop that content, then they have to give at least a pro-rated portion of that money back, which as this point is $135 worth of paid content they have not yet delivered. How do you think it works when you purchase a product exactly? That the retailer has the option of not delivering it to you? Where did you get that idea from exactly?



Which is part of the problem here. FD is run with the goal of maximizing shareholder profits and as a result they frequently ignore massive customer relations issues until the community has reached a critical mass of resentment and frustration.

Serious question here .. When the LEP was sold for $180 - if you just brought that did you get ED and Horizons with it?
 
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