Do NPC crew still die for good if your ship is destroyed?

Seems like just the kind of thing that'll make you think twice before jumping into an unknown, it gives hull loss more consequence, just as returning from exploration, or staying in a CZ too long does - it creates a dilemma.

Assuming the crew were changed to survive hull loss, how would you prefer to add more consequence to 'death'?

Think twice before jumping into the unknown? No, it makes me think I'll never invest the time and credits (and all of my ' XP that they'll steal) into something that is permanently lost upon defeat unlike literally everything else in the game.

There's no way in heck I would ever venture into Open with that kind of risk.

Talk about inconsistent approach with consequences here. There's any number of ways to make things riskier, harder, or they could even add a unique "iron man" mode, without punishing players for using a crew. It's not difficult to think of other ways to add more consequence with a little application of imagination. Even something more straightforward and mundane like increasing insurance costs would be better.
 
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Let's say for the sake of argument that your crew didn't die and managed to get back to the station. Why would they want to ship out with someone who got them killed, let alone if it happened multiple times? That wouldn't be fun though and this is a game.

If I remember to use them at this point it's hire and fire. Until they let me pay insurance to get them back and not make me pay out the nose when they are idle they are pretty much a non-starter.
 
Think twice before jumping into the unknown? No, it makes me think I'll never invest the time and credits (and all of my ' XP that they'll steal) into something that is permanently lost upon defeat unlike literally everything else in the game.

There's no way in heck I would ever venture into Open with that kind of risk.

Talk about inconsistent approach with consequences here. There's any number of ways to make things riskier, harder, or they could even add a unique "iron man" mode, without punishing players for using a crew. It's not difficult to think of other ways to add more consequence with a little application of imagination. Even something more straightforward and mundane like increasing insurance costs would be better.

So you would rather risk your whole save game than a small part of your savegame? Or you would rather increase the cost to all rather than allow each player to manage their own risk level?

Don't get me wrong, I'm broadly in favour of both your suggestions (although imo you can already ironman to your hearts content) but it seems an odd position to take to prefer risking it all rather than risking only your crew. If you die a permadeath you lose your crew anyway.
 
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It doesn't make sense to me why they would persist with this mechanic. Yes, it adds an element of danger and risk, but it also upsets the player base who invest a lot of time and money into said pilot. Worst of all, it makes absolutely no sense considering everything else survives, albeit at the cost of insurance.

They don't play their own game. I would be shocked if anyone from FD leveled an SLF pilot to Master, much less all the way to Elite. I have two Deadly SLF pilots and it took them an average of 6 hours each to reach Master, another 6 hours to reach Dangerous and another 12 hours to reach Deadly. That is 24 hours per pilot or 48 hours in total which consisted of boring RES combat. For me to get them to Elite would be another 24 hours per pilot. FD actually expects you to repeat that grind each time your SLF pilot is killed, which is utter nonsense and the main reason that SLF gameplay is pointless in Open since the risks of losing your SLF pilot are far too high.

If anyone at FD had to put up with their own grindy and nonsensical game mechanics we wouldn't need to complain about them at all because FD would have already fixed them. Keep in mind here we are talking about a dev team that thinks we don't need more than two fire buttons because we should be using the equivalent of a "Street fighter button combo" for weapon management. They actually think that an inconvenient or clumsy game mechanic is somehow a "challenge" rather than simply reflecting terrible game design.
 
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It doesn't make sense to me why they would persist with this mechanic.

AI 'die'. Crew are AI. Ergo they die. If they did not die, people would actually treat them with less respect; people only value what can be taken from them. I always find it amusing that people can pivot from "my dude must survive!" to "AI should be easy to kill".

Pick one. You want survivable crew, then the rest of the AI in game needs to reciprocate. They persist with it because it gives the AI crew meaning and purpose and is consistent; in the same way they are paid even if not in use because they are crew, not slaves.

Which is exactly what unkillable crew would become; unimportant and endlessly exploitable slaves.
 
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AI 'die'. Crew are AI. Ergo they die. If they did not die, people would actually treat them with less respect; people only value what can be taken from them. I always find it amusing that people can pivot from "my dude must survive!" to "AI should be easy to kill".

Pick one. You want survivable crew, then the rest of the AI in game needs to reciprocate. They persist with it because it gives the AI crew meaning and purpose and is consistent; in the same way they are paid even if not in use because they are crew, not slaves.

Which is exactly what unkillable crew would become; unimportant and endlessly exploitable slaves.

Except that the game mechanic of having an SLF pilot die doesn't accomplish this at all. It actually does exactly the opposite, where we treat SLF pilots as either being disposable (i.e., expecting them to die and to be replaced) or temporary (hiring them only for combat missions and then firing them immediately afterwards). Simply creating a high "cost" for SLF pilot death upon ship destruction doesn't make their use any better, it just means that they are either not worth using in most cases (due to high risk of using them and low reward in terms of slightly increased overall dps) or are only worth using as temporary/disposable crew.

It also doesn't fit the overall game mechanic of a relatively low "death cost". We don't have to re-Engineer our ships or recollect our mats upon ship destruction, and it makes almost no sense that we can instantly receive an exact replica of our specific Engineering mods plus all our mats when our ship is destroyed. Yet the ability to save our SLF pilot, which is so common that a dissatisfied passenger can choose to eject from your ship due to poor drink service, is somehow completely unavailable when it is a routine in-game ability.

Using an arbitrary high "death cost" doesn't make us "value" our NPCs more, it simply makes us not use them at all or treat them as expendable.
 
Not one of FD's better design choices, given how respawn mechanics work in the first place. Conclusion: Grinding mechanics for the sake of the grind?

Either we loose everything in death (crafting mats and gear as well) or we don't. This cherry picking of what does and doesn't fall under the respawn law is asinine.
 
Not one of FD's better design choices, given how respawn mechanics work in the first place. Conclusion: Grinding mechanics for the sake of the grind?

Either we loose everything in death (crafting mats and gear as well) or we don't. This cherry picking of what does and doesn't fall under the respawn law is asinine.

I don't really get it either, to be honest, and I prefer playing the game as a survivalist and would be all for the lack of an insurance rebuy altogether. It is what it is though, so I think it'd at least make some sense within that context for the NPCs to follow suit.

I've never even lost an SRV outside of beta testing, but I can accept, somewhat begrudgingly, that not everyone else plays the game for the same reasons as me, by the same terms.
 
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I don't really get it either, to be honest, and I prefer playing the game as a survivalist and would be all for the lack of an insurance rebuy altogether. It is what it is though, so I think it'd at least make some sense within that context for the NPCs to follow suit.

I've never even lost an SRV outside of beta testing, but I can accept, somewhat begrudgingly, that not everyone else plays the game for the same reasons as me, by the same terms.

The problem is that many game bugs will get in the way of a "survivalist" mentality in Elite. Take your claim of having "never even lost an SRV outside of beta testing". I lose mine all the time, but it's not usually collision damage or reckless driving. It's usually due to getting stuck in terrain and having to self-destruct. When the SRV was first implemented it got stuck in terrain all the time, I had to self-destruct frequently as the only means of continuing. What's worse, each of those self-destructs was treated as an "insurance rebuy" of around 100 credits, so my number of insurance claims was dramatically inflated despite not being actual ship losses and having no control over whether the SRV encountered bugged terrain.

It's the same issue with being griefed by an exploit or losing your ship due to a bug. You have no control over those issues as a player and restricting yourself to "not losing your ship" under those circumstances is silly. If Elite were a stable, well-deigned game with properly documented and consistent game mechanics? Then sure, a hardcore "survivalist" mode makes some sense there. With the game we currently have, however, the only way to play that type of game is to not deliberately not take certain risks that are a routine part of gameplay.
 
Either we loose everything in death (crafting mats and gear as well) or we don't. This cherry picking of what does and doesn't fall under the respawn law is asinine.

So AI should immediately respawn after being shot and come right back to continue what they are doing, then? The danger of applying a black/ white, or on/ off mentality to a thing is that it's at times never that simple. Frontier making crew killable, means people will be held accountable for their actions.

You want to play the hero and get your crewmate killed? You get to wear that cost. Consequences. Arguing semantics around material loss, ignores we can't carry 13,000 pounds of it on our person anyway. At what point does "asinine" stop and "compromise" begin?

Would it be more convenient if AI crew were undead zombies that could not die and conveniently lived through every possible scenation? Of course it would. I am quite certain Frontier would have considered both aspects. They elected this outcome for a reason; and the fact people endlessly want to have a consequence free AI experience, is not in the least bit transparent at this point.

I am okay with my crew mate dying. He's made just a disgusting amount off my labour and has equally helped me out of a few scrapes. It will sting when I inevitably screw up and get him killed. But they will go out doing what they love - questioning my choices and reminding me I suck with the sort of snide voice only Frontier can pull off - and I am okay with that because finally they will shut up and I won't have to put up with the smug jerk's grin every time I bring his sarcastic a** on board.

YMMV.
 
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So AI should immediately respawn after being shot and come right back to continue what they are doing, then? The danger of applying a black/ white, or on/ off mentality to a thing is that it's at times never that simple. Frontier making crew killable, means people will be held accountable for their actions.

Except we aren't "held accountable" for losing a ship full of unique Engineering mods. Or a "hold" full of mats or data. Why should SLF crew be treated differently than unique Engineering or mats/data?

You argument makes zero sense given the game mechanics that currently exist in Elite. It makes even less sense given the technology that exists to rescue not only the CMDR piloting the ship but also any passengers who may be on board. It really is a ridiculous game mechanic that ruins an otherwise enjoyable implementation of the SLF gameplay.
 

I get what you're saying, but with that being said, I think the risks can be mitigated more than what people might otherwise be aware of just going about playing the game for what it has to offer. Not always completely though, and for me at least, the frivolous rebuy gameplay isn't worth it, so I do what I can. It's a bit of a tangent though, and I don't mean to take away from the thread. As you may have noted, I agree with the sentiment regarding NPCs anyway. It does seem like a bit of a double standard, even to me. That's the main point I was trying to get across.

Cheers.
 
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I hope they don't, it's the only significant consequence of losing a ship.

I agree.

While I wouldn't be opposed to more consistency, I'd rather other penalties for being shot down increase before this one was reduced.

I wouldn't even be opposed to there being a chance NPC crew could survive, as long as there was some commensurate downside introduced to discourage overly foolhardy behavior.

The trouble with the current binary choice is that it either discourages players from using SLFs at all or just switching to hire and fire disposable redshirts.

Not me.

I currently have two deadly and an elite crew (and have had two deadlies, and possibly one elite, die in the line of duty), all trained up from harmless, that I regularly leverage to good effect in PvP.

Since I've never been a fan of throwing away ships on reckless combats I stand no chance of escaping, let alone winning, I rarely lose them. Since most of my foes are more reckless and resort to disposable expert crew for their SLF ships, I get to benefit from having my SLFs shoot down their SLFs more often than not, which has become doubly important with the release of the Krait. It's nice to finally have some sort of reward for my CMDR not resorting to his magical ejection seat that always saves him from his stupidity and equally magical insurance whose premiums never increase.

The only consequence of this mechanics is players not using self-trained SLF crew at all.

I've trained at least five crew to at least deadly and expect to train them at least as fast as I can lose them (though I don't ever expect to lose them except when I get overly cocky in PvP encounters).

For me, it simply makes zero sense that you can survive the destruction of your ship, the engineered modules survive, but your NPC crew member does not.

I agree.

Which is why I want an ironman mode and for engineered modules to either be lost on ship destruction, or to require a transfer delay plus a massively higher insurance cost.

Yep. Just yesterday I was watching a streamer who straight-up declared to the stream that they would not use this feature precisely because of the permadeath.

If anything it makes it more appealing to me, and I'd be happy to say so on stream, and then fend off all the stream snipers with my Elite crew onboard.
 
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Yep. Just yesterday I was watching a streamer who straight-up declared to the stream that they would not use this feature precisely because of the permadeath.

lol. Were they in Solo or PG and had billions in the bank as well? At times I get the impression I'm about the only commander in open, on twitch, with any regularity (beyond some of the PVP guys and gals).

If that's true then it's completely misplaced. This is not how to make the game have more impactful consequences.

How is treating AI like an actual human (someone who can die, unlike commanders who are essentially undead space-jedi who can cheat death at every turn) misplaced? It's difficult to take this sort of comment seriously, when you've previously argued strong consequences for crime. I'm sure "that's different". Right?

Is it though. Not really. Context is everything. People don't want AI crew to die because it's convenient and removes all responsibility for them. They are on our payroll. They are employees. We are responsible for them. If you do not want that responsibility, do not take it on. They are not undead slaves who can 'cheat death' endlessly for our convenience and pop back up like a carnival duck.

It's bad enough we are essentially immortal undead space jedi with delusions of grandeur; I have no idea why making some AI the same as us (but not others) is apparently just fine. It shouldn't be. For pretty darn obvious reasons.

Frontier commanders - hating consequences since 1984 forever.
 
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So AI should immediately respawn after....*snip*

I am not arguing for permadeath/never permadeath for npc crew. I just want consistency with FD's design or gameplay choices. A question should be asked before the implementation of new features:

"Does this make sense within the mechanics/lore of the game with what we currently have implemented?"

Example: ...... *erm* Telepresence makes no fracking sense what so ever!
(Granted: handwavium for the sake socialization and marketing)

I am completely fine with adding risk and loss to the game as long as it makes sense. Imho adding risk for the sake of risk lessens the game. Like losing just your shield generator after respawning and nothing else.
 
I gave up using crew when I recently found out that your combat rank increase is halved when you use them. The crew takes half the xp from each kill. Way to stop people from using the feature FD!
 
I get what you're saying, but with that being said, I think the risks can be mitigated more than what people might otherwise be aware of just going about playing the game for what it has to offer. Not always completely though, and for me at least, the frivolous rebuy gameplay isn't worth it, so I do what I can. It's a bit of a tangent though, and I don't mean to take away from the thread. As you may have noted, I agree with the sentiment regarding NPCs anyway. It does seem like a bit of a double standard, even to me. That's the main point I was trying to get across.

Cheers.

The known risks in Elite can certainly be mitigated to some extent, for example, when I train my SLF pilots I do so in a HighRES and not a CZ because the CZ spawns are much less predictable. However if you want to use the SLF pilots for all types of combat, including CZ, you need to accept that certain risks can only be reduced to a certain extent. You really have no control over whether you'll experience a "lopsided" CZ spawn where suddenly waves of enemies surround you without anyone else to target, and with swarms of railgun Eagles that can take down a ship very quickly. Since I don't want to lose my SLF pilot from routine training I try to minimize the risks whenever possible but that means I'm intentionally avoiding certain types of combat.

That's the core issue here, this means that I'll be reluctant to take my SLF pilot to a CZ at all. For the Krait, which is currently my main ship, an SLF isn't mandatory and is probably equivalent to another class 3 hardpoint. It's certainly a significant part of the Krait's offensive abilities but it's not so important that the ship absolutely needs to have an SLF to be viable in combat. However if I'm not using an SLF then a major benefit of flying the Krait is lost, it's really one of the ship's best features. Effectively the only way to avoid certain risks associated with an SLF pilot is to literally not play the game. That's my issue here, if the risk/reward ratio is so imbalanced to the point that an SLF pilot is a massive investment in time and credits compared to the firepower it adds to your ship, then FD has gotten that part of game balance wrong. Can I still take that risk? Sure, but it's not a good "deal" at all in terms of what I'm getting for risking a pilot that requires a 24 hour grind (at Deadly) to train. For FD to set up a massive grind and then include such a harsh penalty for actually taking your SLF pilot into combat is a little absurd, given that the entire point of the SLF pilot is to take them with you into risky combat situations.

Incidentally there are real-world examples of this type of issue where the risk/benefit ratio becomes imbalanced to the point that an intended combat role isn't worthwhie. The best military example is probably the Mi-24 helicopter gunship which was designed as a hybrid assault/transport helicopter. In theory it sounded like a good idea to be able to carry a heavy weapons load, heavy armor and 8 troops into a combat zone. In practice however it didn't work out well because the troop compartment wasn't heavily armored like the cockpit was and the troops were a major distraction for the pilot who had to constantly consider how to best protect them. In practice the Mi-24 couldn't be used anywhere near as aggressively as intended in the assault transport role because the risk/benefit ratio for having troops carried by the assault helicopters directly wasn't worthwhile for what it added. Eventually they started carrying the troops in dedicated troop transports that such as the Mi-17 that were less heavily armed and armored but could focus entirely on the troop transport role after the heavily-armed Mi-24s cleared the landing area. The cargo space of the Mi-24 was instead used to carry additional ammunition for missiles/rockets which could be reloaded in the field, along with a door gunner who could provide suppressive fire using a door-mounted machinegun and cover the Mi-24's flanks. Effectively what sounded like a good idea on paper was just not useful because the risk to the carried troops wasn't proportional to the benefit of combining both roles.

That is basically what FD has given us with the current version of the SLF game mechanics. It sounds like a good idea in theory but the risk for brining a highly-trained SLF pilot into combat is just not worthwhile for the benefit it provides. Unfortunately unlike the Mi-24 we don't have any other alternatives if we decide not use the SLFs. The Mi-24 could carry other useful payloads but we don't necessarily have another "better" use for the SLF bay because it is a core feature on many ships that is part of their expected offensive capabilities. We can't replace the bay with another class 3 hardpoint and maintain the ship's overall offensive capability, we just lose the dps if we don't bring an SLF. I don't think that the design goal for the SLF pilots was to have such a high "cost" associated with them because really they are nowhere near a proper risk/benefit ratio right now.
 
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Imho adding risk for the sake of risk lessens the game. Like losing just your shield generator after respawning and nothing else.

Sure; but that's massive scope creep vs the original question. Hell, I'm like a card carrying member of the consistency party. Half my posts are on that topic. But not at the expense of all consequence. A thing is never truly black and white, on or off.

The developer has all sorts of inconsistencies going on. Because some are basically compromises to serve a purpose. Part of me wishes that crew survived? Not gonna lie. It'd be convenient as hell. But I am actually okay with them not surviving if we screw up and get them killed.

It makes sense in that they are our crew and we are responsible for them. That, and by extension they, should mean something. I'm okay with AI crew being able to die. It means what I do, matters. And at times what we do in the game? Should matter.

And given so much of this game, what I do, doesn't matter in the slightest? So much doesn't resonate because it's clinical and lacking in consequence? AI crew being vulnerable in a way we simply are not, is probably more important than people might give credit.
 
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