Not IF but WHY discussion around modes in the BGS

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In this light, the option of PMF should better have never been made. Because if reading the FAQ's of pmf-submissions, you can read that a playergroup indeed owns a pmf and nobody else than this group.
(It should be noted that frontier grants in terms of ownership only rights for giving them a name and description)

I don't like it that way and will here and there still tell my opinion about it, but i accept that it is intended this way! [up]

It is important to note that one of the lines at submission is a warning that the PMF will be like any other minor faction in the game, subject to the whims of the BGS, and with any CMDR the ability to work for or against that faction.

The only protection a PMF offers is that no other PMFs can be inserted where one is already present.

BTW, I agree that PMFs should never have been inserted, IMO. I'd have preferred CMDRs adopting NPC factions.
 
So if your motivation ISN'T shooting other people, what difference does it make whether they're in Open or not?

If you want PvP to be meaningful in the BGS, you can have that without changing the mode mechanics.

I suggest re-reading my previous, I can't be bothered to repeat it for the ten billionth time.

And how exactly, pray do tell, do you propose making PvP meaningful in the current BGS setup, without it being in open play?

FDev needs to really bite the bullet on this issue. The fanbase claims "Oh i'll leave if BGS becomes open only", I guarantee that is an empty threat at best.
 
FDev needs to really bite the bullet on this issue.

FD doesn't need to do a damned thing about it- because it's not an "issue" except in the minds of some who perceive there's an imbalance where there really isn't one.

If they felt there was sufficient cause to do so- they would have done it already. Apparently, they don't because they haven't.

You sure you the game is a fit for you? I mean, all the marketing materials clearly tell you that the BGS is meant to be affected by all modes- without engaging in multiplayer to begin with. If you're dissatisfied, then clearly you either a) didn't research the game before you bought it or b) bought it anyway and then realized you'd made a mistake because you don't agree with the design.

In either case, it's not Frontier's "fault".
 
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However, when a PvP group has a PmF, who most likely are not going to be clued up on the ins and outs of the BGS, (Becuz we r stupid gun jockiez) then get thier faction smashed by a bunch of PvE players who can completely deny them a means of defence in thier chosen playstyle, this is a one way street, and thats where the issue lies.

I would BGS, but I simply do not see the point in engaging in something where you don't get a taste of your opposition. No idea of numbers, no idea of methods they use, ETC.

It's very one sided. My argument here is about fixing that one sidedness.

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ehhh... git gud?

We're a BGS group with a number of pilots that practice PvP against each other to git gud at PvP, even though that is not our main activity, but adds emergent game play to conflicts. Why, as PMF group, do you not want to git gud at BGS play, but instead insist the game is changed to your skillset?

Or... don't play the BGS, or be prepared to be steamrolled by those who know what they're doing.

This game has many layers. Being good in one doesn't mean you're good in another. You want to play BGS and be successful? ​git gud
 
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Moreover, you are specifically advocating that people undergo said tedium, because it should be the only way to BGS. Can you not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying?

Tedium, right?

The BGS is affected by trading, mission running, passenger ferrying, exploration, bounty hunting, combat, murder, piracy, smuggling, mining, and I am probably forgetting something.

What does not affect it (meaningfully) is PvP.

If the PvE content that drives the BGS and is practically all activity in the game is tedium to you.... why do you play the BGS? Actually, why do you play Elite at all?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Generally if you were to see a large number of cmdrs with the same faction tags, or even an unusually large number of cmdrs in what are generally, backwater systems, it's a pretty good indicator.

If you needed verfication, you could easily look at the influence statistics to confirm it could you not?

I don't get where the idea of "They just want to shoot us innocents" comes from, this is about fairness.

If you seriously think there is enough PvPers to disrupt your BGS, then you are very mislead. There are not.

Moreover, don't you think it would be good to give that subset a job within the BGS? Maybe being hired as a millitia would pull them away from ganking newbies in Eravate, or mass murdering traders at the CGs? Clearly that has been ignored also.

Faction tags don't exist, as another has said. Some players choose to put them in their CMDR's name - that's entirely optional though. I expect Squadron tags to be introduced in the Q4 update - although I don't expect there to be a direct link between Factions and Squadrons.

The influence stats are up to a day out of date when they are read.

The BGS is fair - it just does not require PvP.

Why should players who are prone to the low effort behaviours you mention, be rewarded? If players don't want to be attacked by others at CGs or in the starter systems then they know what to do - that does not require content to be restricted to Open Only - quite the opposite.

I'm not demanding that at all, I'm in fact advocating everyone gets a level playing field so that folks can interact with the system at the same level. Do not try to re-purpose my comments. The PvEers can still interact with it in a PvE capacity, the difference being, that the PvPers are not then automatically shut out from the concept.

What you've just said there, is literally what you are claiming I'm saying.
"you don't want to learn how the mechanics of it work"

No, not everyone enjoys tedium admin or doing dull and vapid missions to retain thier influence. It's that simple.

And the faction tags that most people tend to put in thier ship ID or before thier ships name. Regardless, a high amount of player traffic (outside the norm), in your system is either one of three things.

A CG, a profitable trading/passenger run, or indeed, a BGS move.

Again, the playing field is level. All players interact with the BGS in a PvE capacity. If players choose to engage in PvP then that's their choice - and their choice alone.

Well thats just wrong.

PvP is effective to defend a system, it is not to take one.

There is a big difference in its application.

Once again, this is about not forcing anyone to use one or another method, and giving people the option to choose which one they want to apply.

I expect that the time of the players required to patrol every system in which the PMF was present, 24/7, on three platforms, just in case they encounter a player that might be about to affect their Faction could be better spent, in terms of influencing the BGS.

It's entirely about forcing an optional playstyle (PvP) - onto players who don't need to engage in it for any reason within this game.

The game has not been designed to be dominated by PvP - and some PvP players really don't like that fact. However, we all bought that game, not one where anyone was required to engage in PvP.

As I would be expected too, I will repeat myself.

If it effects the whole, it should only be accesible in a mode where the whole resides.

If you don't find it compelling, I have no problem, but it is the truth.

Moreover, you are specifically advocating that people undergo said tedium, because it should be the only way to BGS. Can you not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying?

The whole does not reside in Open, as has been mentioned. Open, like PvP, is an optional game feature in this game. While Sandro has indicated that a majority of players play in Open, he has also indicated that both Solo and Private Groups have significant populations. Equally, another Dev has indicated that Frontier are well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP - which suggests that PvP-gating significant game features isn't on the table - which is backed up by Sandro's repeated statements that the only game feature being considered for Open Only is PowerPlay.
 
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Jane Turner

Volunteer Moderator
Currently, we have a couple of Murder Monkeys about.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/385078471350812694/486082315718754304/unknown.png

There is the slightly ridiculous situation that the one at the top of this list probably has run up say 70 -2 transactiions in this system and has 9 figure bounties in two other jurisdictions. However second bounty on the list is a player who intercepted and took out the previous second incumbent of second place, who was also running a 9 figure bounty. Had the comeuppance been delivered in a system where the faction is in control it would have been worth +2. As it was retribution was delivered in the neighbouring system, without a KWS and the murder money was "hiding" behind crimes on and a Power Play pledge.


THere may be some opportunity to rebalance that a bit.
 
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Stopping CMDRs by direct action remains optional in this game, as does playing in a multi-player mode where one may be stopped by another player.

The best resolution to the issue is to stop treating murder as one kill = one transaction - as that works in all modes.

I realise that this does not suit the Open Only Agenda, however I don't subscribe to that - and I certainly didn't buy a game that supports it.

Add bot control to that.
I've made experi3nce in the past with trade-nukening through bots. One cutter flying 240k ls to a market not owned by us 24h a day over a complete week.
There is no chance for a competition against bots and this is also a huge problem.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Add bot control to that.
I've made experi3nce in the past with trade-nukening through bots. One cutter flying 240k ls to a market not owned by us 24h a day over a complete week.
There is no chance for a competition against bots and this is also a huge problem.

Bots, and any other macro-enhanced operations (that Frontier have indicated are not permitted), should be stamped out as the cheats that they are.
 
There are some very polarising opinions here...and I think everyone is correct...from their standpoint.

Would be good if you're playing in a private group, or solo, to be able to drop into a PvP BGS or CZ.
Would making 20% of these "open play" when you drop into them work, regardless of the mode you logged into the game with.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
There are some very polarising opinions here...and I think everyone is correct...from their standpoint.

Would be good if you're playing in a private group, or solo, to be able to drop into a PvP BGS or CZ.
Would making 20% of these "open play" when you drop into them work, regardless of the mode you logged into the game with.

Players should not be forced to participate in PvP.

If players want to engage in PvP then they can log into the multi-player game mode most suited for them - their choice.

Plus, console players without premium platform access *cannot* play in multi-player.
 
Currently, we have a couple of Murder Monkeys about.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/385078471350812694/486082315718754304/unknown.png

There is the slightly ridiculous situation that the one at the top of this list probably has run up say 70 -2 transactiions in this system and has 9 figure bounties in two other jurisdictions. However second bounty on the list is a player who intercepted and took out the previous second incumbent of second place, who was also running a 9 figure bounty. Had the comeuppance been delivered in a system where the faction is in control it would have been worth +2. As it was retribution was delivered in the neighbouring system, without a KWS and the murder money was "hiding" behind crimes on and a Power Play pledge.


THere may be some opportunity to rebalance that a bit.
Maybe a better solution would be to make not so easy to sent a system into lock down or give the system controllers a more even way of rectifying it. As it stands it seems that Fdev is ok with powerful attacks which are hard to stop or at least unwilling to balance them.
 
Players should not be forced to participate in PvP.

If players want to engage in PvP then they can log into the multi-player game mode most suited for them - their choice.

Plus, console players without premium platform access *cannot* play in multi-player.
Ok, I agree...but what I suggested would force anyone to do anything.
What it allows is a choice that if someone wants to PvP, while in a private group, then they drop into a CZ that's flagged as PvP/Open.
Best of both worlds...
 

Jane Turner

Volunteer Moderator
Maybe a better solution would be to make not so easy to sent a system into lock down or give the system controllers a more even way of rectifying it. As it stands it seems that Fdev is ok with powerful attacks which are hard to stop or at least unwilling to balance them.

Lockdown is an advantageous state when defending against murder, so I'd hate to make it harder to get to. Currently if a murderer of say 50 ships is taken down in system, the nett benefit to the murderer is 98 transaction points in terms of influence leverage
 
Lockdown is an advantageous state when defending against murder, so I'd hate to make it harder to get to. Currently if a murderer of say 50 ships is taken down in system, the nett benefit to the murderer is 98 transaction points in terms of influence leverage

So it's the easy gain of transactions by murder that needs adjusting?
Or the whole "per transaction" way of calculating influence?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
So it's the easy gain of transactions by murder that needs adjusting?
Or the whole "per transaction" way of calculating influence?

As I understand it, there is a disparity between how murder is treated and how other transactions from other methods are - it seems that each murder counts as a single transaction.
 

Jane Turner

Volunteer Moderator
As I understand it, there is a disparity between how murder is treated and how other transactions from other methods are - it seems that each murder counts as a single transaction.

Yes... and while it is tempting to eg remove the transactional nature of bounty hunting - that in turn is well balanced with the rest of the BGS. Simply requiring "murder bonds" to handed in somewhere as a transaction, and be lost if the murder was taken down by a player or authorities, would solve a lot of the balance issues.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Yes... and while it is tempting to eg remove the transactional nature of bounty hunting - that in turn is well balanced with the rest of the BGS. Simply requiring "murder bonds" to handed in somewhere as a transaction, and be lost if the murder was taken down by a player or authorities, would solve a lot of the balance issues.

It would also be an effective pan-modal solution.... ;)
 
Yes... and while it is tempting to eg remove the transactional nature of bounty hunting - that in turn is well balanced with the rest of the BGS. Simply requiring "murder bonds" to handed in somewhere as a transaction, and be lost if the murder was taken down by a player or authorities, would solve a lot of the balance issues.

I like it as a practical solution, but I'm having trouble putting it into a lore-sense perspective!

As dystopic and cut-throat as Elite's universe is, I can't imagine every station having a facility to declare illegal kills. Some kind of black market transaction, maybe?

Food for thought, happy to discuss further elsewhere if it's off topic :)
 
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