News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal
The thing I like most about exploration in the game is finding new things or arrangements of things and mucking around in space. It's like taking a walk in the woods. "Oh, hey, that plant looks kind of weird," or, "check out that cool looking moss on that rock," only the galactic space equivalent.
If that means I'm not really an "explorer" in the game, I'm OK with that. I just hope I can still be a space vagabond without too much getting in the way, like repetitive mini-games.
If that means I'm not really an "explorer" in the game, I'm OK with that. I just hope I can still be a space vagabond without too much getting in the way, like repetitive mini-games.
Our new exploration motif:
[video=youtube;ZzbGjJwJe80]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzbGjJwJe80[/video]
[video=youtube;Tf8f6wYWyQI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf8f6wYWyQI[/video]
[video=youtube;cBU6C6lA6vI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBU6C6lA6vI[/video]
[video=youtube;ZzbGjJwJe80]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzbGjJwJe80[/video]
[video=youtube;Tf8f6wYWyQI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf8f6wYWyQI[/video]
[video=youtube;cBU6C6lA6vI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBU6C6lA6vI[/video]
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A honk is about 10s, dropping into a beacon is at least a minute lost (moving to beacon, dropping in, scanning, back to super cruise, regaining lost speed). For finding a mission target, this is lost time, adding up fast. And if you are a trader, pray that the beacon is not compromised.
I feel that all the exploration improvements, great as they are, have made it worse as a tool for fast and efficient travel. I feel that assassination missions and sightseeing tours will need some rework so that they will not slow down.
I have a similar sentiment where I'd prefer ED stick to their hard sci-fi human centric lore, excepting possible thargoid controlled or settled clusters supposedly currently in some permit locked areas. Where besides the usual planetoid scanning, new artifact discoveries are mostly limited to other ship crashes as before, ancient human megaships or lost colonies. Eventually with atmospherics, there could be encountered lost colonization human civilizations, plenty of flora and fauna transported or mutated from earth. Very very few alien races similar to Niven's Known Space world, or Asimov's human only galaxy. Overall, maybe the occasional invader from the another galaxy or dimension, i.e. perhaps the thargoids.
I think even where currently in system view, some scanned gas giants mention ammonia or gas based life, the description should be changed to just "capable" or "possible" of supporting this kind of life, or better yet mention of life nixed altogether, and not be assumed life on these gas giants are ubiquitous everywhere in the galaxy.
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Let me first say I LOVE your description of the planned changes! This is why I've been putting off doing any exploration this year. I've been waiting for this. Now, a couple bits of feedback.
Interference
I think an important point to making the exploration gameplay rewarding and interesting, is that it shouldn't become a rote mechanical task. I think one way to achieve that is for our instruments to not be perfect. They should require a little perception and insight to interpret the readings.
I'd like for noise interference and occlusion to be part of this. It doesn't feel right to do a detailed scan right through a star, for example. But also, most stars must throw out a great deal of radiation in all spectra. You'd think that would have some impact on sensitive measurements. Maybe that causes interference patterns in the readings from our instruments. Depending on the amount, a skilled user might be able to see past the noise. Or, a more practical user might move the ship away from the star a few light seconds so as to get a clearer picture.
Trying to scan a faraway object, with a noisy object near to the line of sight, we should also see interference. Other objects like gas giants could also be noisy, to a lesser extent maybe.
Missions
Please make new missions that ask us to go procure exploration data. This provides an additional practical angle to exploration, exploration in the service of industry. (Though pure, independent exploration would still be a thing!)
One mission type might ask us to scan a particular system. Or ten systems in a particular region of the Galaxy. Or ten systems in some range of distances from the mission giver. These missions might originate from High Tech economies (for scientific reasons), or Military economies (for strategic reasons).
Another mission type might ask us to map gas giant rings. Extraction economies would probably want this. Or, factions trying to expand might be interested to know which nearby systems present mining opportunities?
Interference
I think an important point to making the exploration gameplay rewarding and interesting, is that it shouldn't become a rote mechanical task. I think one way to achieve that is for our instruments to not be perfect. They should require a little perception and insight to interpret the readings.
I'd like for noise interference and occlusion to be part of this. It doesn't feel right to do a detailed scan right through a star, for example. But also, most stars must throw out a great deal of radiation in all spectra. You'd think that would have some impact on sensitive measurements. Maybe that causes interference patterns in the readings from our instruments. Depending on the amount, a skilled user might be able to see past the noise. Or, a more practical user might move the ship away from the star a few light seconds so as to get a clearer picture.
Trying to scan a faraway object, with a noisy object near to the line of sight, we should also see interference. Other objects like gas giants could also be noisy, to a lesser extent maybe.
Missions
Please make new missions that ask us to go procure exploration data. This provides an additional practical angle to exploration, exploration in the service of industry. (Though pure, independent exploration would still be a thing!)
One mission type might ask us to scan a particular system. Or ten systems in a particular region of the Galaxy. Or ten systems in some range of distances from the mission giver. These missions might originate from High Tech economies (for scientific reasons), or Military economies (for strategic reasons).
Another mission type might ask us to map gas giant rings. Extraction economies would probably want this. Or, factions trying to expand might be interested to know which nearby systems present mining opportunities?
I very much doubt this will be the case. Nearby objects will likely be faster and easier to scan, and once you have the closest object to a star, you have a MAJOR CLUE as to what the rest of the system contains. See an ice planet as the closest object to a star, boom, you know every object after that is also going to be ice. See a metallic or HMC object as the closest? Hmm, maybe there will be terraformables in the system? The distribution of orbits also gives a big clue because orbits have resonances. This is why the game populates systems in the current recognizable and familar distributions that we see repeated again and again.
Also recall that we currently have lots of clues about what a system contains just from the Holograms. The new energy distribution and gravity signatures will likely contain alot of hints and repeating signals that will likely become familiar patterns, so that a Veteran Explorer popping open the DSS interface will be as obvious as popping up the current System Map, but in a way that is so much cooler and rewarding than just glancing at a picture a giant arrow saying WW is over >>>>HERE<<<<.
Think about it, if we know the type of star, we know the distance to look for terraformables and WW. Simply set the range filter to that habitable zone range and look for an energy signal of WW and terraformables, the same way you look for the signal of metallic metorite signals. That is potentially much faster than the current system of honking, checking the galmap for potential HMCs, flying over to the expected habitable zone and pointing and waiting.
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So my thoughts a few of that have been touched on in here before but also wondering if Frontier actually are still bothering to get some one who understands 'science' to look at things etc. New Mechanics are great but they are also ignoring a few things...
1. For at least about 4AU a quick set of visual scans done by a computer even over the course of a few minutes should pick out 'most' planetary objects and before you go 'no they don't' yeah they do how do you think a lot of stellar mapping is currently done for Local Earth and Near Earth Objects out to about the range of Jup and Saturn.. We literally take 1 set of images and then another and run a pattern analysis on them. Your telling me we can't do that with the computers in the 3304 despite them being able to calculate the requirements of manipulating gravity with out tearing apart planetary bodies (FSD local space) and the requirements to punch a hole into witch space and then out into a new system?
2. How much of a Grind is this going to be? Yes Explorers want mechanics but honestly we want engaging game play, not grinding at the moment there is a lot of risk and time sink and not the greatest reward especially if we compare the time sink values towards other environments, this is going to ADD to that time sink considerably and the most we see is 'oh we will boost the credit pay out'. Great, except maybe you can explain why we have to return to a station to transmit even basic data when apparently the technology exists too:
a. Log any and all infractions against me even if a ship is destroyed before an authority vessel can arrive to back up the call for help's information (so apparently we can send detailed scan data instantly across massive distances).
b. virtual reality link real time massive data spectrum across thousands of light-years instantly (Multiplayer) with out any form of degradation or loss..
but we can't send something like a 'Hey there are 5 planets in this system, here's a packet burst proving my discovery, pay me for it and i'll expect a bigger pay out when i return with the detailed scan'.. ?
Yeah I get it game and there will always be some grind and some loop that's the nature of games and even real life, BUT at least make your technology base and the like CONSISTENT, hell if Colonia can talk with the Sphere then exploration pilots should be able to send basic data back and get some immediate reward for the time and effort their sinking into things.. not run the risk of constantly oh great i got blown up there goes 8 months of work.
OR if you are going to continue with the current Explorers aren't able to get a reward with out coming back, and have to sink all this time in add the original game play mechanics that you all put up back in pre-alpha and the like where a destroyed vessel would DROP its black box and any one could then find and salvage that black box and get all the data from it.
right now this is like a step in the right direction but also a step int he wrong one because while adding new exploration mechanics it really seems like it's 'hey heres more grind (and more shoot things most likely? seems that's how we all interact with everything right), and oh yeah if.. IF you manage to get back we will reward you, while eveyr other game play loop in the game basically gets a reward at least every few hours because hey they are near stations'.
1. For at least about 4AU a quick set of visual scans done by a computer even over the course of a few minutes should pick out 'most' planetary objects and before you go 'no they don't' yeah they do how do you think a lot of stellar mapping is currently done for Local Earth and Near Earth Objects out to about the range of Jup and Saturn.. We literally take 1 set of images and then another and run a pattern analysis on them. Your telling me we can't do that with the computers in the 3304 despite them being able to calculate the requirements of manipulating gravity with out tearing apart planetary bodies (FSD local space) and the requirements to punch a hole into witch space and then out into a new system?
2. How much of a Grind is this going to be? Yes Explorers want mechanics but honestly we want engaging game play, not grinding at the moment there is a lot of risk and time sink and not the greatest reward especially if we compare the time sink values towards other environments, this is going to ADD to that time sink considerably and the most we see is 'oh we will boost the credit pay out'. Great, except maybe you can explain why we have to return to a station to transmit even basic data when apparently the technology exists too:
a. Log any and all infractions against me even if a ship is destroyed before an authority vessel can arrive to back up the call for help's information (so apparently we can send detailed scan data instantly across massive distances).
b. virtual reality link real time massive data spectrum across thousands of light-years instantly (Multiplayer) with out any form of degradation or loss..
but we can't send something like a 'Hey there are 5 planets in this system, here's a packet burst proving my discovery, pay me for it and i'll expect a bigger pay out when i return with the detailed scan'.. ?
Yeah I get it game and there will always be some grind and some loop that's the nature of games and even real life, BUT at least make your technology base and the like CONSISTENT, hell if Colonia can talk with the Sphere then exploration pilots should be able to send basic data back and get some immediate reward for the time and effort their sinking into things.. not run the risk of constantly oh great i got blown up there goes 8 months of work.
OR if you are going to continue with the current Explorers aren't able to get a reward with out coming back, and have to sink all this time in add the original game play mechanics that you all put up back in pre-alpha and the like where a destroyed vessel would DROP its black box and any one could then find and salvage that black box and get all the data from it.
right now this is like a step in the right direction but also a step int he wrong one because while adding new exploration mechanics it really seems like it's 'hey heres more grind (and more shoot things most likely? seems that's how we all interact with everything right), and oh yeah if.. IF you manage to get back we will reward you, while eveyr other game play loop in the game basically gets a reward at least every few hours because hey they are near stations'.
OK, so my previous posts prove why I should read through *all* of the posts by Frontier staff before posting 
.
So, on the basis of my read through, I do still have a few minor things I'd like to suggest/reiterate/clarify.
Firstly, Adam, can you tell us how the new exploration mechanics will actually tie in with Mission specific USS's & PoI's. The current system makes finding our mission targets ridiculously easy (whereas 1.0 through to 2.0 made it ridiculously hard). Are we finally going to get a middle ground where players have to actually *work* to find mission targets (how hard being perhaps dependent on mission rank) rather than just having them appear if the player is willing to hang around long enough? That is what I most crave.
It was mentioned in the mining update that we'd be getting a scanner that can do short-range scans of rocks from within belts & rings. However, surely its time for Discovery or Detailed Scans to reveal the % Content of Minerals & Metals within a belt and/or ring? If I am looking for Painite, then having a Detailed Scan reveal that one ring has 35% Painite content, whilst another only has 10%, then I know which ring I am better off mining in. Please implement this mechanic in Q4.
When it comes to doing Detailed Surface Scans, without probes, I definitely feel we need multiple ways to perform them. The passive approach we currently have will reveal some details-but require a close range; a more active scan (which requires you to actually do a "honk") can be done at a further range, & will reveal more detail than the passive scan.....but not as much as a probe scan. The final approach would be to use the ship like the probe & do a close range orbit of the planet-using the same target system as the probe. This will get you as much info as a probe scan......but be a lot more dangerous, though less dangerous for more skilled pilots, obviously.
Lastly, please *please* consider adding more layers of skill to fuel scooping, as I mentioned above, so that players who want more excitement and/or faster fuel scooping can do so....albeit at some amount of risk. Seriously, in general please don't underestimate how important the need for more added potential dangers, is in terms of making exploration more exciting.
.So, on the basis of my read through, I do still have a few minor things I'd like to suggest/reiterate/clarify.
Firstly, Adam, can you tell us how the new exploration mechanics will actually tie in with Mission specific USS's & PoI's. The current system makes finding our mission targets ridiculously easy (whereas 1.0 through to 2.0 made it ridiculously hard). Are we finally going to get a middle ground where players have to actually *work* to find mission targets (how hard being perhaps dependent on mission rank) rather than just having them appear if the player is willing to hang around long enough? That is what I most crave.
It was mentioned in the mining update that we'd be getting a scanner that can do short-range scans of rocks from within belts & rings. However, surely its time for Discovery or Detailed Scans to reveal the % Content of Minerals & Metals within a belt and/or ring? If I am looking for Painite, then having a Detailed Scan reveal that one ring has 35% Painite content, whilst another only has 10%, then I know which ring I am better off mining in. Please implement this mechanic in Q4.
When it comes to doing Detailed Surface Scans, without probes, I definitely feel we need multiple ways to perform them. The passive approach we currently have will reveal some details-but require a close range; a more active scan (which requires you to actually do a "honk") can be done at a further range, & will reveal more detail than the passive scan.....but not as much as a probe scan. The final approach would be to use the ship like the probe & do a close range orbit of the planet-using the same target system as the probe. This will get you as much info as a probe scan......but be a lot more dangerous, though less dangerous for more skilled pilots, obviously
.Lastly, please *please* consider adding more layers of skill to fuel scooping, as I mentioned above, so that players who want more excitement and/or faster fuel scooping can do so....albeit at some amount of risk. Seriously, in general please don't underestimate how important the need for more added potential dangers, is in terms of making exploration more exciting.
Yeah I get ya, I wasn't aiming at NMS proportions of stuff but the occasional broken srv or cargo drop while you're 10k ly out is a bit meager imho.
I'm absolutely thrilled about the probe system but finding something unexpected on occasion would be nice, give us reason to launch probes.
Why did you stop doing it then? ADS was an optional internal last time I looked.
Another one. If it caused you such an existential crisis mate, why did you keep buying and equipping an ADS? You can still find bodies using the eyeball just like you always could.
I have to admit every time I see someone make this claim, part of me thinks it's like those people who look back fondly at the camaraderie and sense of national pride they had during WW2, whilst forgetting about the powdered egg, bombing and six years of genocide.
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All new "First mapped": You'll be able to add a first mapped across any planet within the galaxy, including within the bubble. Giving all players that have joined the game since it's launch even more opportunity to make their mark on the galaxy.
So what happens to all the discoveries that explorers have already made. You just flush them down the toilet? This totally sucks! Pure crap! So now instead of seeing the planets, you'll see a rendering of it on an "interface", just grinding endlessly doing this, then flying to the place. I am soooooo losing interest in this game.
So what happens to all the discoveries that explorers have already made. You just flush them down the toilet? This totally sucks! Pure crap! So now instead of seeing the planets, you'll see a rendering of it on an "interface", just grinding endlessly doing this, then flying to the place. I am soooooo losing interest in this game.
Thank God, there is somebody left in the world who doesn't try to tell me that 'the proof is in the pudding'
For what it's worth, the current thinking in the planetary science community is that simple life -- i.e. microbial or proto-microbial -- probably *is* pretty common in the universe. Some kind of biochemistry clearly arose very early in the history of our Earth, and similar conditions are probably quite widespread in our galaxy.
However, Fermi's Paradox alone does strongly suggest that we live in a galaxy with few if any other spacefaring civilizations. Which I'd imagine FDev is thankful of, because evidence suggests that creating the art assets for an entire new alien species is *expensive*.
Mentioned on another thread. I was thinking, aside from just having persistent POIs show up in a scan, it would at least be interesting to have natural wonders pointed out in a system scan. For example, highest and lowest elevations on a planet, for those looking to explore extremes. Regions with highest concentration of rare metals/minerals for SRV rock hunters.
Every time I hear that, I'll want to hit full down diveplanes, flank speed and full left rudder. DIVE! DIVE!
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