News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Wendake]

Just listened to the LiveStream...can't wait to play chapter 4 ! I really love the whole new exploration gameplay mechanics.

I only have 1 concern :

- would be interesting to know if a system have already been discovered by another CMDR early in the process (anyway if it's discovered it means that data exploration was sold so technicaly we should be able to have access to it in some sort of way)

o7

 

[[VR] Deggial]

That's literally what honking does. It puts an image of the body on the map. And tells you how far from the primary star each body is. ...

No, it literally does NOT do this!

What it puts on the map is a generic icon of a planet type, not the surface structure of the planet itself!
In order to find out, whether or not interesting surface features are present, you have to scan the planet.
When zooming in without a scan, all you see is a wire-frame sphere. (If the planet is landable, that is. Otherwise you can’t zoom in at all.)

(As you drove me crazy with your claim, I actually launched the game in order to confirm my point. With all the back and forth regarding this topic a while ago, I was confused if I could be wrong.
So I tested it and it is as I wrote. )

Edit: For more details, please have a look at Red Anders’ beautiful post below.

 

[Sparkam]

One important thing

[up] Proposal looks great. One thing bothers me. The planet from proposal image looks as if it was shot from a close distance with wide angle camera. That's not good...

Hopefully massively zoomed in view of a planet will be realistic, narrow angle telescopic shot like this

or this

 

[wstephenson]

Like Deggial, I long for diegetic in-cockpit gameplay, rather than bolted on minigames. This is why supercruise, interdiction, mining, SRV wave scanning and Horizons landings are all harmonious components of the game.

I like the basic principle described in the OP, but why can't we have it as a cockpit activity? Here is how it would work:

1. Honking activates the scanner in 'area mode'', generating a 360° frameshifted gravitational wave ping.
2. The processed echo gives us an idea of mass distribution in the system. Following a mass/distance² rule, large or nearby bodies, as well as all stars, will be instantly resolved. So an ELW 500-1000Ls distant or an average gas giant 2000Ls distant will be located precisely, although only mass and orbital elements will be given. They appear in the nav panel Unexplored as now, and as wireframe spheres in the system map.
3. Unresolved masses, such as the above gas giant's ring system and moons, secondary stars' planets, as well as more distant and smaller bodies, appear in the nav panel as 'UNRESOLVED MASS' and as a glowing cloud on the system map. Bodies occluded by an intervening body are also unresolved, although they may have been near enough to resolve ordinarily.
4. Now the second phase begins. This involves peering, by aiming the ship or a turreted sensor array at the centres of unresolved masses, and using the energy signature tuning and aiming mechanisms described in the OP to send focused sensor pulses at a set strength towards the body. As bodies are resolved, they are subtracted from the energy spectra. Setting the power of the pulse increases its effective range, but this uses more energy from SYS, encouraging a light touch. Resolved bodies are entered into the nav panel tree as above
5. Unresolved mass in the nav panel or map indicates the survey is incomplete.
6. It may be necessary to reposition the ship in order to survey occulted masses, or very distant, very small masses.

In this way, a quick look at the major features of the system is provided, and the expanded survey functionality is provided as a new mode of existing gameplay, and situational awareness of the cockpit and nearby space is maintained.

 

[Alfred J Kwak]

I don't understand why we can't just look up all of the ones we've already discovered.
They have your Cmdr name on them, lol...

well i would gladly look them up exept not every stinking system is logged as most where scanned pre horizons and there was no bookmarking , visited star logs in the galaxy map yet and even if it was it doesnt log systems on the server only on your pc /laptop or device your currently playing.

 

[Red Anders]

I'm just going to throw something in here.

Hands up if you remember the 2.2 beta from 2016? That was the one where they changed the functionality of the detailed surface scanner so that it told us what materials could be found on a planet for the first time - before that if you wanted say polonium for example, you had to land on a planet chosen at random, drive round, shoot some rocks and just see what you got. Yes, really newcomers. We did that. For about a year actually.

It also introduced the zoomable 3D models of landable planets with full surface maps that we have on the system map now. Prior to that the system map looked exactly the same as it does now after a honk with the pretty little pictures of planets but that's all you got - a 2D picture.

OK, so when they released the beta at first it was bugged in a way that meant an ADS scan revealed the bodies but didn't load the 2D pictures, so all you got for an ADS honk was plain black spheres. Scanning with a DSS then revealed the image and the 3D zoomable surface map. If you weren't playing back then and are having a hard time visualising what I mean, here's a picture:

All the ADS honk gave you is the black balls that you can see for every planet other than the first three.

DSS then gave you what you can see for the first three planets.

Now, remember please that this was unintended. A bug. However some of our exploration brethren actually liked not being able to see any detail at all from an ADS honk and started a campaign to either keep it like that for everybody, or to make it a toggleable setting so that they could turn off the pictures/3Dmodels from an ADS honk and only see those with a DSS scan. It was a relatively small proportion of players but a fairly vocal one and the idea gained enough traction that FDev did actually consider whether to implement it. However they decided not to do that eventually. I'm going to be honest and say I would have been fine with it being toggleable for people who liked it, but there's no way I would ever have enabled it myself.

So. What we're getting here is an update where the ADS won't even show you the black spheres in that picture from a honk. You get the main star and nothing else. I can see that 90+ pages into the thread, some people still seem to be having difficulty processing this fact but that is what they have said very clearly - the honk shows you nothing but the star on the system map.

If anybody who wasn't here (or who likes a bit of nostalgia) wants to recap the discussion around that 2.2 beta by the way, here's a link to a thread which includes a poll with over 1,000 votes, 75% of which said 'yes we want the honk to still show all the planets in a system in full colour glory':

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...nable-(A)DS-to-detailed-surface-in-system-map

So yeah. We're now seemingly getting an update that will provide less from the ADS honk than a previous (bugged) variant did, one which was never even implemented into the game because although I fully accept that some players loved it, a lot of other players didn't. Interesting choice.

Please also note - I am NOT posting that as an attempt at saying 'oh hey look, 75% of people said this was bad, so it's some sort of evidence about the current proposals'. It was a different issue, it was unintended and most importantly it wasn't part of the overall package of changes being announced now. I'll bet that some of the players who said 'no' to the 2.2 issue might have said 'yes' if it was a trade-off for the other aspects of what is being delivered now. I just thought it might give some added context to the ongoing discussion.

 

[WR3ND]

...

I'll be back in about 20 minutes with another clever meme

Spoiler

At least use a spoiler. No need to clutter up the thread.

 

[akaliel]

you really think we wouldnt have mapped those planets if we could?

Frontier screwed explorers for 4 years come up with this crap and we have to do it all over again.
Explorers are getting screwed over again and again for years now.

Frontier had an entire year to come up with something good lots of hype and its already screwed up beyond repair.
Now explain it to the ones that are doing or have done the distant worlds expedition or the galactic rim journey that suddenly what they scanned and loved to do is now mostly void.
O and never mind the sudden replacement of scanners for ammo based scanners and probes. these come in handy for the explorers that do not have the mining lasers to collect the materials for synthesis, or the larger ships that dont have the collector limpets to gather the materials .

The entire mechanic is screwed up and badly designed . 4 years the community told them what explorers wanted and this is not it.

Let's not pretend the community had some agreed on and well formed idea of what they wanted exploration to be. For the most part they simply wanted interesting things to find and some sort of gameplay wrapped around exploration. That was it.

Also, why do you have to do it all over again? Your OCD so bad you need to surface map every single system you've discovered?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

well i would gladly look them up exept not every stinking system is logged as most where scanned pre horizons and there was no bookmarking , visited star logs in the galaxy map yet and even if it was it doesnt log systems on the server only on your pc /laptop or device your currently playing.

That's exactly what I mean by can't.

 

[Alfred J Kwak]

This is what it feels like to be an explorer waiting for explorer content , and when it Finaly arrives.
[video]https://tenor.com/FLAM.gif[/video]

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

you really think we wouldnt have mapped those planets if we could?

Frontier screwed explorers for 4 years come up with this crap and we have to do it all over again.
Explorers are getting screwed over again and again for years now.

Frontier had an entire year to come up with something good lots of hype and its already screwed up beyond repair.
Now explain it to the ones that are doing or have done the distant worlds expedition or the galactic rim journey that suddenly what they scanned and loved to do is now mostly void.
O and never mind the sudden replacement of scanners for ammo based scanners and probes. these come in handy for the explorers that do not have the mining lasers to collect the materials for synthesis, or the larger ships that dont have the collector limpets to gather the materials .

The entire mechanic is screwed up and badly designed . 4 years the community told them what explorers wanted and this is not it.

Of course you would have mapped them if you could, but that functionality wasn't in the game at the time so you couldn't. I've discovered planets in the bubble that other players missed either because they didn't use an ADS or the ADS wasn't available at the time. Too bad for them, too bad for you.

What do you expect them to do, go back in time and add the functionality to the original game? Or, let me guess, you'll want 1st map credit because you "would have" mapped them if you "could have" mapped them.

 

[c00ky1970]

Like Deggial, I long for diegetic in-cockpit gameplay, rather than bolted on minigames. This is why supercruise, interdiction, mining, SRV wave scanning and Horizons landings are all harmonious components of the game.

I like the basic principle described in the OP, but why can't we have it as a cockpit activity? Here is how it would work:

1. Honking activates the scanner in 'area mode'', generating a 360° frameshifted gravitational wave ping.
2. The processed echo gives us an idea of mass distribution in the system. Following a mass/distance² rule, large or nearby bodies, as well as all stars, will be instantly resolved. So an ELW 500-1000Ls distant or an average gas giant 2000Ls distant will be located precisely, although only mass and orbital elements will be given. They appear in the nav panel Unexplored as now, and as wireframe spheres in the system map.
3. Unresolved masses, such as the above gas giant's ring system and moons, secondary stars' planets, as well as more distant and smaller bodies, appear in the nav panel as 'UNRESOLVED MASS' and as a glowing cloud on the system map. Bodies occluded by an intervening body are also unresolved, although they may have been near enough to resolve ordinarily.
4. Now the second phase begins. This involves peering, by aiming the ship or a turreted sensor array at the centres of unresolved masses, and using the energy signature tuning and aiming mechanisms described in the OP to send focused sensor pulses at a set strength towards the body. As bodies are resolved, they are subtracted from the energy spectra. Setting the power of the pulse increases its effective range, but this uses more energy from SYS, encouraging a light touch. Resolved bodies are entered into the nav panel tree as above
5. Unresolved mass in the nav panel or map indicates the survey is incomplete.
6. It may be necessary to reposition the ship in order to survey occulted masses, or very distant, very small masses.

In this way, a quick look at the major features of the system is provided, and the expanded survey functionality is provided as a new mode of existing gameplay, and situational awareness of the cockpit and nearby space is maintained.

The new exploration tool is the SRV scanner for space - so you should love it (based on your post above).

The exploration screen has a %age discovered value displayed, so again hopefully this will allow completionists to know when to stop

The tool has a range aspect to scanner, so you can fine tune and look at specific ranges

When you discover a planet it then appears in the environment and if orbit lines are on these then appear (shown in the original graphic) - it will also resolve the planet name (again shown in graphic) - so can then "cheat" and see how many are there before that planet, or if the planet orbits a secondary body.

For landable planets the output is material composition as well as a hint if other stuff (brain tress, guardian structures, fumeroles or new stuff) is there.

The SRV scanner taught us how to determine a Mesosiderite from a skimmer cluster, this new exploration tool will also quickly teach us about if there is a system of rocky ice worlds, HMC or terraformable HMCs etc.

People have to really let go of the clunky and monolithic Honk, open system map and see everything in one go method we have been saddled with to date. We are going to eb really exploring, analysing "doing Science!" ;-)

 

[akaliel]

The new exploration tool is the SRV scanner for space - so you should love it (based on your post above).

The exploration screen has a %age discovered value displayed, so again hopefully this will allow completionists to know when to stop

The tool has a range aspect to scanner, so you can fine tune and look at specific ranges

When you discover a planet it then appears in the environment and if orbit lines are on these then appear (shown in the original graphic) - it will also resolve the planet name (again shown in graphic) - so can then "cheat" and see how many are there before that planet, or if the planet orbits a secondary body.

For landable planets the output is material composition as well as a hint if other stuff (brain tress, guardian structures, fumeroles or new stuff) is there.

The SRV scanner taught us how to determine a Mesosiderite from a skimmer cluster, this new exploration tool will also quickly teach us about if there is a system of rocky ice worlds, HMC or terraformable HMCs etc.

People have to really let go of the clunky and monolithic Honk, open system map and see everything in one go method we have been saddled with to date. We are going to eb really exploring, analysing "doing Science!" ;-)

Yes, exactly!

My big worry is that the community is at it again. Trying desperately to ruin another improvement to the game.

Because we all love waiting an hour for our ship to arrive...

 

[Noogillim]

I wonder who will win out here?

The HonkMoaners or the WiblyScanners?

 

[wstephenson]

The new exploration tool is the SRV scanner for space - so you should love it (based on your post above).

This misses my point - I don't want to leave my cockpit and do these survey tasks flying a cursor in a 2d squashed version of the system. I don't want to look away from the beauty of the galaxy. I don't want to have to learn and configure yet another set of control bindings.

 

[WR3ND]

I'm just going to throw something in here.

Hands up if you remember the 2.2 beta from 2016? ...

Yep. Was thinking something along these lines might be a good compromise myself, if I can still "scan" the worlds with my DSS without shooting space balls at them to see them on the map.

Not ideal though of course, when I just want to spend some time mucking around in cool looking systems and on cool looking worlds.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I wonder who will win out here?

The HonkMoaners or the WiblyScanners?

We know FD has already decided. Also people will moan, complain and will play Q4 as it will be released.

 

[akaliel]

We know FD has already decided. Also people will moan, complain and will play Q4 as it will be released.

Hopefully they'll go the way of the Telepresence whiners.

 

[who?]

Like Deggial, I long for diegetic in-cockpit gameplay, rather than bolted on minigames. This is why supercruise, interdiction, mining, SRV wave scanning and Horizons landings are all harmonious components of the game.

I like the basic principle described in the OP, but why can't we have it as a cockpit activity? Here is how it would work:

1. Honking activates the scanner in 'area mode'', generating a 360° frameshifted gravitational wave ping.
2. The processed echo gives us an idea of mass distribution in the system. Following a mass/distance² rule, large or nearby bodies, as well as all stars, will be instantly resolved. So an ELW 500-1000Ls distant or an average gas giant 2000Ls distant will be located precisely, although only mass and orbital elements will be given. They appear in the nav panel Unexplored as now, and as wireframe spheres in the system map.
3. Unresolved masses, such as the above gas giant's ring system and moons, secondary stars' planets, as well as more distant and smaller bodies, appear in the nav panel as 'UNRESOLVED MASS' and as a glowing cloud on the system map. Bodies occluded by an intervening body are also unresolved, although they may have been near enough to resolve ordinarily.
4. Now the second phase begins. This involves peering, by aiming the ship or a turreted sensor array at the centres of unresolved masses, and using the energy signature tuning and aiming mechanisms described in the OP to send focused sensor pulses at a set strength towards the body. As bodies are resolved, they are subtracted from the energy spectra. Setting the power of the pulse increases its effective range, but this uses more energy from SYS, encouraging a light touch. Resolved bodies are entered into the nav panel tree as above
5. Unresolved mass in the nav panel or map indicates the survey is incomplete.
6. It may be necessary to reposition the ship in order to survey occulted masses, or very distant, very small masses.

In this way, a quick look at the major features of the system is provided, and the expanded survey functionality is provided as a new mode of existing gameplay, and situational awareness of the cockpit and nearby space is maintained.

Repped. +1'ed. Replied.

Though I think the current plan is a huge step forward, the above is more what I wanted. In-game scanning (so we still have access to in-cockpit screens and cues), not a fullscreen mini-game.

I suspect, it is/was done this way to make it more suitable for Multicrew - one pilots, another operates the sensors in fullscreen mode. I'd much prefer the above though.

 

[Jenner]

Hands up if you remember the 2.2 beta from 2016?

*Raises hand*

I've been here since the beginning. (Ok, not quite. Tj has, but not me). Still, I remember that and I have to say - the fact that *everything* is revealed by a honk really shouldn't have been in from the get-go imho. I get why some people will miss that, but I really do think it will greatly improve the process and enjoyment of exploring *for me.* I never liked how exploration was implemented so I'm glad FD are finally adding to it.

The problem is that the system we have now has been with us for years and people are used to it. There's just no way FD can touch it without angering some people.