News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[aRJay]

Originally Posted by Will Flanagan (Source)
You will be able to synthesise micro-probes for the detailed surface scanner, but the better aim you are, the less probes you will need to get complete coverage.


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I don't like this idea of having to synthesise planetary materials to manufacture these micro-probes and would urge the developers to consider infinite ammo because these probes are going to be the keys to unlocking/mapping new systems. Deep space explorers are going to use thousands of them but that's not the reason why I say this.

What does an explorer do when their deep in the outer rim and their staring at the wreckage of their only SRV? Will customer support replace it, no questions asked or will it be the end of any meaningful exploration when they use up their last probe.

If only we were able to synthesise a new SRV into our empty bay, now that would put the smile back on our face, come on guys make us smile

They will be reduced to only being able to obtain the data that they can obtain with the current systems, losing the surface mapping detail (POIs etc on planets and probably Hot Spots in rings) that the DSS probes provide.

 

[mossfoot]

If only the game and the direction Frontier seems to be taking it could have that same sort of impact while playing it for some of us space junkies.

Sorry, mossfoot. I highly respect your opinion, but mucking around with these sort of mini-games isn't really how I happen to get my kicks. Sure, they might be nice options for fleshing out additional content, but not as a gateway to access the content already in the game, in my opinion.

Hope you can see where I'm coming from here.

All the best.

I wish I could see where you're coming from, but you might need to explain it more.

If the current method is dull (which it is) and the new method is faster, even if you're not fully engaged with it, it's got to be a step up, doesn't it?

 

[Red Anders]

People seem to keep missing the QoL of not having to fly all the way to planets to scan them. Was beginning to think I imagined it up on my own.

I think that sounds great. It's the fact that knowing they're they're there to be scanned to begin with currently takes about ten seconds. All the new stuff like detail scanning with the new map interface, being able to get further info like locations of interest by using probes sounds great, I love it. I just don't want to have to spend ages getting to a point when I can do all that new fun stuff when there's currently a game mechanic that gets me to that point pretty much immediately.

I'm not trying to categorise players here, this is just an observation about the way we use language I guess but for me 'discovery' and exploration' are not the same thing. I explore things after I discover them. Discovery = finding out they're there. Exploration = checking them out.

The thing with making discovery a game is that this is a reasonably realistic representation of the galaxy. That doesn't mean NMS-style worlds with tens of thousands of odd things to be found. The thing with rarity is that by definition it means there are a hell of a lot of things that aren't rare at all just sitting out there making the rare stuff rare. That's how it works.

Anything up to three quarters of the stars in the galaxy are estimated to be red dwarfs. There are a hell of a lot of snowballs. No particular shortage of boulders. I don't scan or explore many of them to begin with unless they have (for example) an interesting orbital pattern giving interesting views. Most don't.

Right now an ADS scan gives me a good enough idea about that and other considerations about a system's contents for me to work out whether I want to explore the system fully, or press on and maybe discover something incredible in the next system, which I will then explore. If that process goes from taking ten seconds to even 'just' ten minutes, it reduces the number of systems I could potentially check out in an hour from sixty (honk, scoop, system map, jump) to six, with no change at all in the percentage chance of finding something interesting because the galaxy itself seems to be completely unchanged in this update. With the exception of probably some new kinds of USSs, this is all new ways of finding exactly what in the game today and nothing more based on what has been said. The probe-lobbing in particular sounds really good, it will be great to get surface POI data at last and the new map scan system as a way of getting what is currently DSS data also sounds like it could be good - it's just that lack of a quick system overview that feels like it might wreck it for me.

As I said back when they first anounced it, it really needs a beta to get a proper flavour of how it's going to shake out but there is absolutely no doubt at all that it is going to take longer to simply discover what bodies exist in a system - it takes ten seconds now, no way is any scan map mechanic doing that and although you'll get the current DSS scan data as part of a combined discovery and scanning process with these changes, any time saving compared to current DSS scanning only exists at all if the things you simultaneously discover and scan are things you would have detail scanned anyway. If not you haven't 'saved' any time at all, you've spent time doing something that you wouldn't have done in the game as it is today, which doesn't bring any particular entertainment payoff for the additional time.

It's all opinions. I can only judge it against what I like to do and how I like to do it.

I wish I could see where you're coming from, but you might need to explain it more.

If the current method is dull (which it is) and the new method is faster, even if you're not fully engaged with it, it's got to be a step up, doesn't it?

It's only faster if you currently scan every body in every system that you jump through. I know some explorers do and that some even say that no true Scotsman explorer doesn't, not that I particularly care what other people think about how I derive my enjoyment from a game.

If you don't do that now and only investigate a system further when something you see on the system map after a honk piques your interest, it isn't faster at all. It doesn't matter how fast the equivalent of a current DSS scan is in the update, it's an activity which you wouldn't be doing at all at the moment with the ADS honk reveal being completely separate from DSS scanning and so wouldn't be spending any time whatsoever on.

Please, please don't say anything about cherry picking, credits, earthlikes, credits, 'high value planets' or credits by the way. Not a motivator for me at all. Credits from exploration are a bonus for me, not a reason to do it.

 

[knausis]

Have you seen the picture in the OP? Clearly not. The process you speak of reveals *all* the info currently revealed by a Detailed Surface Scan, which can currently only be done when you are within 1000-100 light seconds of a planet, depending on its size.



How like haters to complain about a feature that they clearly know nothing about. Still, makes it easier to dismiss their "concerns".

And i thought you said you know how the new scanner work. Revealing only the main star and fuzzy points in extra screen, for you, means revealing all information? Oh god.

So you reckon that, in 1 minute, you can discover all the details of a planet-including its material content? Do you even play the game, or do you play vicariously via the forums?

You starting to cherrypick texts out of context? You getting triggered? Good lol.
Lets continue.
In 1 minute i can jump in to the system, honk (that gives complete information about systems build and distances, few important stats about planetary objects like - radius, mass and very important - distance from star, ring sizes), then i check the system map if there is something i am interested in, and if there is nothing i want, like objects with huge rings with landable planets around them, i am already in next system. And yes, you can do it also in 45 seconds for smaller systems if you focus. I dont need to know a composition of a rocky body that i am not interested in, but i will tag a rocky body if i see it has cool canyons.
Currently we also have planet holo images on the HUD we can use to distinguish what type of gas giant it is for example, if there are doubts about targeted body.
Take all these tools away, and best you can do in that 1 minute is see the star and jump to next system.

So yeah, looks like you are the one not playing the game.

I am ready to spend MY time scanning objects that MY interests are for, i wont spend MY time to scan fuzzbals in hopes that from all gas giant fuzzies i might find one with big rings, especially because i CAN do it currently in few moments.

 

[WR3ND]

I wish I could see where you're coming from, but you might need to explain it more.

If the current method is dull (which it is) and the new method is faster, even if you're not fully engaged with it, it's got to be a step up, doesn't it?

For me it's just as much of a space sim as a space game. I want to spend my time flying my cool sci-fi spaceship around in space in cool looking systems, landing on cool looking worlds, that sort of thing, not messing around with additional maps, launching space basketballs, and the like to have that experience, which I can have now already in the game without having to take gameplay time with those features. For me, they're more of an encumbrance. I'd rather that they added additional gameplay options for additional content instead of limiting the options and content already in the game.

 

[Lestat]

Can we use larger slots to combine with the Surface scanner to store more Ammo? So let say your Surface scanner is in a Module 2 slot. It could be used to store 75% extra Ammo than a Module 1.

 

[Jethzk]

Please take care of the USS spawning problem. It is very annoying that they do not spawn until after super cruising for a while.

 

[Sylveria]

You getting triggered? Good lol.

You may want to avoid the "goading commentary" if you really wish others to take you seriously. Just a suggestion.

I don't know about everyone else, but I typically tend to ignore the rest of a post when I see this type of vitriol. (and that's all it is)

I definitely don't want to see every thread devolving into a handbag discussion because people are unable or unwilling to communicate clearly without involving primary school tactics.

 

[mossfoot]

For me it's just as much of a space sim as a space game. I want to spend my time flying my cool sci-fi spaceship around in space in cool looking systems, landing on cool looking worlds, that sort of thing, not messing around with additional maps, launching space basketballs, and the like to have that experience, which I can have now already in the game without having to take gameplay time with those features. For me, they're more of an encumbrance. I'd rather that they added additional gameplay options for additional content instead of limiting the options and content already in the game.

I suppose to me looking at maps is part of the exploration experience. And the new maps seem like they'll be a more interesting experience than the way it currently is.

But as to whether or not they'll be more of an encumbrance, I suppose we'll need to see it in action during the beta. I've just always felt the core elements of exploration--content aside--were so bare bones as to be non-existant.

I also want additional gameplay content, but I also want the experience we currently have to be improved upon. It's been neglected for far too long.

 

[knausis]

Quite the contrary. Your problem is that you only see what you might lose but not what you will gain. Giving up old habits is always painful to some.

Its not an old habit or something, its efficiency that we lose.
And there is the problem you dont see - in current game i can spend only 1 minute in new system to know if it is worth my time. After the patch - i will be forced to scan all objects, or at minimum all gas giants (if i am looking for gas giants for example) to even know anything about them. While currently i honk, and i have all data about them in system map to know if it needs a closer visit. And if there is cool object in system, i still will need to fly to it to check it out, no matter how far the new extra screen scanner works.

Fdev proposed ADS changes might work good and cool in bubble for places where you always want scan systems fully, it wont work outside it, in a galaxy with multi-billion star systems where people scan only whats worth scanning. And worth scanning doesnt necessarily means big value targets.

For example, players who visit Colonia or such. Currently they honk, check system map if something cool or valuable is there and decide what to do - scan something or jump next. If nothing is there, you have spent 1-2 minutes from jumping in and out of system.
Now imagine with new ADS, where players only see main star after honking. How many players do you think will spend extra time to scan fuzzbals they know nothing about, or in best case - from the frequency thingy they know it is a gas giant, but dont know even the type anything else about it? I give them 1k Ly till 99% give up wasting time and start "jump in - scoop - jump out" without bothering to waste time in hopes they might find something cool in the system.

 

[Red Anders]

Quite the contrary. Your problem is that you only see what you might lose but not what you will gain. Giving up old habits is always painful to some.

Read my post on the last page and explain to me what I will gain.

I'll also say you (and a few others) seem to be oddly gleeful about the fact that some other players think one or more aspects of this update might affect their gameplay adversely. I've never really got that attitude to be honest.

I mean for me, it's an update in which every part except one sounds pretty good and a couple of parts sound really great. It's just that the one part that doesn't sound so great is the one that means I'll be able to spend less of my game time doing all the other ones.

Not really sure why that marks me out as a target for mockery to be honest. I mean today I left the house for work at 9am, got home at 9pm, it's 2am right now and I'm about to go to bed for about six hours before I do it all again. I've found time to play the game for about 45 minutes tonight. As it happens I'm in the bubble at the moment and used my time productively (as much as we ever do when playing a game) but if I'd been out in the black and managed to discover just three systems full of identikit snowballs in that time because I had to spend time sitting in those three systems getting full scan data that I don't care about just to find out that they're full of identikit snowballs, I can't see that I'd be doing it for too many nights before I just played something else because I wouldn't be moving the needle on my happymeter anything like enough to justify using all my supposedly fun time for the day on it.

I can accept that someone else might be in paroxysms of joy at the prospect of doing that and I don't feel any need to mock them for it. Schadenfreude isn't really a good look when it's being directed at people who just want to have some fun in a computer game.

 

[MightyBOB]

I'm just amazed that they don't see how great a compromise/synthesis of old and new playstyles this actually is.

Before, back when the early exploration debates were occurring, most of the naysayers for change argued that removing this or adding that would slow down their credits per hour or just slow down gameplay in general.

But it's pretty clear from how things are described that the process will be much FASTER in the two extremes (rush exploring and deep exploring) and take only modestly longer for those in the middle.

For those in a hurry, the energy emissions bar at the bottom will tell you at a glance if the system is worth stopping and taking a deeper look at. Yes, it won't be as obvious as the system map (though, how many people still mistake cloud covered rich metal worlds for water worlds or earth-likes from time to time?), but once you know what to look for it a) won't take more time and b) be more immersive than the current system. Win Win.

For those looking for really hard to find objects, brain trees, gysers, ruins, etc... this is going to speed things up. A lot. Eyeballing that stuff was a PAIN and I doubt many who did it truly enjoyed it other than the for the sheer challenge of it. But for most of us it was just a pain. Again, this will not only speed things up, but feel more immersive than the current system. Win win.

For those now caught in an interesting system and wanting to scan the good stuff before moving on, yes, it will probably take a bit longer. But not as long as you think. After all, you're not having to fly to each and every world to get your DDS on. The DDS element as you currently know it can be done just by locking onto the signal and getting the zoom in (from what I understand). And this provides all the same information as the DDS. So in that regard, again, it's going to be faster.

It's just the new mapping function (which is optional, and a whole new layer of gameplay) that will slow things down.

So... from what I can tell, everything we CURRENTLY do is going to be done more efficiently. Plus a new layer of exploration added on top of that for those who want it. Those who don't, can skip it.

So I'm just not seeing the problem.

Can a wave signal tell me that a high metal content body is a trinary object orbiting around two other HMCs without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal tell me that a body has a high chance of volcanism just from looking at it without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal tell me that a body is landable without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal tell me a body's precise orbital distance without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal do all of that, and more, and do it for every body in the system in under a minute? Honk can.

Except after Q4 a honk won't be able to do any of those things and I doubt an unscanned wave signal will be able to either. This is a huge loss of functionality. The only thing that the new minigame makes faster (for planetary exploration) is detailed scans of full systems. But this comes at a great cost; everything else gets slowed down and it makes you blind to troves of information until after you do the detailed scans. If you ever want to see a map of the system you are forced to spend time scanning everything because there is no other way to get planets to appear in the system map out in deep space.

Everything else about the exploration changes sound great. I'm excited for probe mapping. The neutering of the ADS honk is a poison pill.

 

[maddavo]

Sounds interesting. I just finished two weeks of exploring to get to Elite and thought my exploration days were over - doh! Could have used less flying around systems to scan planets!

QUESTIONS:
When this goes live, will all the "First Mapped" tags be blank?
Will "First Mapped" tags just apply to landable planets and rings - or are non-landable planets also mapable?
Will we be able to bookmark coordinates on landable planets?

 

[rekurzion]

wait...how does a gas giant provide nickle? or is the picture of the zoomed in gas giant and its resources just a bad copy and paste job?

 

[Sylveria]

Can a wave signal tell me that a high metal content body is a trinary object orbiting around two other HMCs without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal tell me that a body has a high chance of volcanism just from looking at it without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal tell me that a body is landable without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal tell me a body's precise orbital distance without doing a detailed scan? Honk can.

Can a wave signal do all of that, and more, and do it for every body in the system in under a minute? Honk can.

Except after Q4 a honk won't be able to do any of those things and I doubt an unscanned wave signal will be able to either. This is a huge loss of functionality. The only thing that the new minigame makes faster (for planetary exploration) is detailed scans of full systems. But this comes at a great cost; everything else gets slowed down and it makes you blind to troves of information until after you do the detailed scans. If you ever want to see a map of the system you are forced to spend time scanning everything because there is no other way to get planets to appear in the system map out in deep space.

Everything else about the exploration changes sound great. I'm excited for probe mapping. The neutering of the ADS honk is a poison pill.

For some, it may be a "poison pill", for others it's a definitive boon that distinguishes "travelers" from "explorers" and thus rewards gameplay accordingly, based on actual involvement and engagement as opposed to "causality". Just because you "happen to be" moving from point A to B doesn't make you an "explorer"- anymore than going on holiday to Brighton Beach makes you a cartographer.

It really is about time Frontier helped people to recognize that. The "Crayola Payola" trend needs to go, with a quickness.

 

[Boomdaddy187]

A Reason to Explore

I am relatively new to the Elite: Dangerous series and I have been hooked! Exploration is something I have wanted to get into, but the time involved just to grind your way to a decent ship...MAN!

This will get me to dabble more in exploration for sure! Great upgrade FD. Can't wait to see what else you got coming!

 

[Cliché]

After watching the live stream, I think I understand what they are going for and kind of like what I'm seeing, but ...

It looks like a commander can enter an unexplored system and just sit there and "discover" the entire system w/o actually going anywhere. That seems too easy to be "earning" discovered by tags. Is that exploration? I don't see the point of improving exploration with more depth just to make it easier for mere "travelers" to scoop up half the "rewards". Maybe it won't really change very much. They'll learn the energy readings for earth like, water and ammonia worlds and only bother scanning and mapping them (as usual), rather than wasting their time scanning others just for tags.

Also, in addition to the "First Mapped By" tag, I'd like to see a "First Landed On By" tag. That one would be for the really dedicated explorers. [yesnod]

 

[Marc_Hicks]

The reactions of some people here takes me back to the 2.2 Beta. As you may well recall, there was a bug in one of the beta updates that left the interior of honked planets blacked out. FDev promised to remove the bug in the next patch, but all the explorers screamed "NO!!!!!", as they wanted it kept in. Thus followed a very long debate between FDev & the Beta Testers about what they wanted from the exploration mechanics. My feeling is that what we see in the OP is a direct result of that conversation, almost 2 full years ago.

Personally, I like the look of it, & its the kinds of features that might finally get me out beyond the bubble to explore. However, I do believe that compromises can be made to assuage the fears of those who feel it goes "too far", but bringing back the "honk reveals everything" mechanic is definitely a compromise too far IMHO.

The Science Module is one compromise I mentioned above. Another would be that = our HUD-post honk-should provide visual clues of the rough location/distance/size of a stellar object within the system (sort of like a variant of the Parallax system), then players should be able to get a better resolved scan of the stellar body by flying towards it & re-honking at a certain range (not sure what range, though certainly a longer range than where the current detailed scans takes place). Not sure if this approach should reveal as much detail as the Emission/Gravity approach, but it should at least give a name, classification (ELW, Class I Gas Giant, HMC etc) & surface features......but probably not the material content or presence of surface features.

Another thing I'd very much like is for the "mini-game" aspect of the Discovery Scanner to be do-able whilst in-flight. i.e. the picture we see in the Opening Post should really be an overlay of our regular HUD, but not so intrusive that we cannot still fly the ship......possibly with the *option* to open the image up in a separate screen.

 

[Cliché]

QUESTIONS:
When this goes live, will all the "First Mapped" tags be blank?
Will "First Mapped" tags just apply to landable planets and rings - or are non-landable planets also mapable?
Will we be able to bookmark coordinates on landable planets?

Yes (except maybe Earth ...), Yes (just not stars and black holes), and I Don't Know.

 

[Sylveria]

The Science Module is one compromise I mentioned above.

I absolutely LOVE the idea of a Science Module- or even many facets of such "science" in different modules, however- I'd also like internal ship optional slots to be adjusted for said modules accordingly, or said modules specifically being able to utilize UTILITY slots (or perhaps even "weapon" hardpoints...) instead of trying to cram them into already meager real estate in a ship. Not everyone flies (or wants to) an Anaconda for Exploration, after all. Would Utility slots need to be adjusted accordingly for all prior ships? Most likely- and Frontier may even have to take a further look into the aspects of "balancing" for combat as a result... but perhaps that's the way it SHOULD be since most balance passes previously have had tendency to be centered around combat instead of ALL activities in this game.

EDIT: In relation to "weapon hardpoint" equips- perhaps the justification can be made whether it's a DIRECT activity as opposed to an INDIRECT activity. Directly engaging an object, versus indirectly (passive scans, for example) engaging.