News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

From what we know about it, I like it a lot. It's a fair and deserved balance towards actual exploration. I would much prefer if the UI for the system scan/energy scan was part of the cockpit HUD however, so it doesn't feel like a minigame that is separate from the actual game.

I'm reserving my judgement for when it'll be playable, but I'm very curious to see it all in action.


Rant :

A lot of people seem to not understand that they don't have to scan systems if they don't want to. It's far from a requirement. They jhonked up until now because it's literally blended with refueling, doesn't cost any time nor anything, besides the ADS itself, and it happened to be very profitable on top of that. Someone going to Colonia the fastest possible, honking to see if there is anything of interest on the way, and only going to scan ELW or WW are cherry-picking, not only that, but an opportunistic kind of cherry-picking. But get this : if you're going to Colonia the fastest possible, you are not doing any exploration. That is not what you are doing. You're just going from point A to point B. You are not even concerned by that rework. The fact that honking along the way is free and profitable has nothing to do with exploring. If you're doing that, that is fine, but you can't be mad that it finally get fixed. You know what kind of star you are at, and you can refuel, or not, and you've got the energy scan, that you can learn to read. But that's all you need to know about the system. If you are interested in the discoveries, maybe put more effort into this. Maybe train reading the energy scan so you can still cherry-pick.

But here's the thing : nothing is forcing anyone to scan systems. If you don't want to spend the time, then why would you get the information ? Why do people want all the information about the system in one honk ? If not to go and grab only what's valuable (and let's not be hypocrites here, that's exactly what it is) ? That sounds like abusing a system that was in place, that was profitable, and that is going to be fixed, which is an effective nerf to one kind of gameplay, and also a buff to another kind of gameplay that has been dull for ages. If it wasn't a bug, it was certainly a design flaw to me, because it could be abused, and that's why I use the word "fix".

People seem to not realize that the honk provides the energy scanner, which should provide enough information to know if the system is worth their time. That's what the energy scanner is. I like it because it rewards actual explorers, and requires cherry pickers to put in some effort without preventing them to do that. Honestly that's a fair and deserved rework. I have been cherry-picking, for the record, because it was possible and didn't cost me anything. More than that, it was very profitable, in fact, that's how I made the little money that I made. That does't prevent me to see that it makes exploring unrewarding.

People seem to not realize that nerfs are needed, for any iterative game. I know it might not be pleasant to have that removed, and it might affect the way you play, but it's the case for any update to any game, and really, it is completely out of our control, as players. FDev decides, FDev will never satisfy everyone with any single decision they make, and they still have to make decisions, because players urge them to do so. They're nice to ask for feedback in the first place. ED is FDev's game, they have a vision for it, and ultimately they are judge. Us players, we will never reach a consensus, we are who-knows how many thousands of players, that is not happening, we will not all agree on anything. Now if it doesn't please us, individually, we have the choice to change our playstyle, to adapt to this decision, or to stop playing the game (or even, that sounds crazy, but that part of the game only). This is far from the end of the world.

I personally would feel much better if each visited system was completely tagged by one CMDR or two. But completely tagged, not just the star and the most profitable body around it. And mind you, I have done that, honked, went to the ELW/WW to scan it, and not touch anything else in the system because I've seen it/it's not worth my time/I already knew before jumping what was of value (roads2riches yay)/whatever. But I have also entirely visited a nebula cloud (Elephant's Trunk iirc). For the heck of it. When I filter by visited stars, that portion of the sector is all blue for me. And the blue is the same size as the cloud. That was fun. That was a goal. There wasn't even anything of worth aside from a couple of 10-stars systems. But that looks more like exploring than honking on the way to some random point, whatever the reasons are for that honking. And I'll do it again. Don't know where, don't know when, but I'll do it again.
 
Say no to interstellar pollution ;) Make probes for finding poi's. Let commanders who have scanned their worlds already "map" them. (as if we hadn't already) I mean break down the name. Detailed. Surface. Scanner. Says it all right in its name, it scans the surface of a planet in great detail using advanced 3304 technology. How is a sputnik probe better than that? Hey I dont mind firing probes, cept pollution, but c'mon at least let us keep our records intact. it gives me alot of pride to know I alone discovered so many worlds, I tout Elite for this very reason.

Probes *are* for finding PoI's.
 
...and thats all they should be for

Also finding elws (rare and my favorite) wasn't easy, never is. Not every journey out into the black was fruitful, if you are an explorer worth your mettle, than why would you (the player) want to piggyback off of someone elses' finds?
 
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Wondering how many of us will slam our ships into stars on entry to a system. We'll have to kill that habit of honking the moment we arrive lol
 
Everyone is entitled to their view. I see three main exploration camps with regards to new exploration mechanics.

Type-1: I want to keep my infinite scan honk because I want to know what is in the system before I scan interesting planets or look for scenic views. This seems strange to me as it like an explorer wanting to know the unknown before exploring it. Some just want quick credits.

Type-2: Some CMDRS enjoy supercruising and like to fly around the system in their ship to scan planets.

Type-3: Like the more involved game mechanics and finding the unknown, infinite honk reveal all destroys the new game mechanics.

I think some commanders have been conditioned by years of Elite role play that pressing one button and pointing your ship at planets is exploration because exploration was so hollow. That's how I see things.

Personally from what I've read, I like FDev new exploration mechanics.
 
I am a little too excited to make much of a comment here but WOW!!!!

As Pam from Archer would say...
tumblr_lygvsyDdRs1r5rl88o1_500.gif

 
There's something in that livestream that gave me cause for concern.

Adam said that first you open up the Discovery scanner screen and "then you do the honk" (I'd like to give an exact quote but for some reason the video is now coming up as restricted).

This really will break things for me. After the initial wave of people arriving in a system, reflexively pressing their scanner button and immediately blinding themselves to the massive star they're just about to fly into, it will become a case of:-

Jump into system
Steer away from anything you can see that you're in danger of hitting
Throttle back to 30km/s

Only THEN will you press the scan button, after which you can honk and discover the star that you're sitting right next to, and then look at the Energy Distribution thingy and cecide what to do next.

Id like to see it more like this:

Drop into the system and honk as you are used to doing.
This brings up the Energy Distribution scale on your HUD, which you can analyse while you continue to be able to see where you're going. If you then decide it's worth investigating you can park yourself by the star as above and open up the full interface.

Ideally I'd prefer to see the whole thing as a HUD overlay, as others have already mentioned, but I don't think that's what we're getting.

On that last point, though, I don't think it is so set in stone that we cannot get it changed to a HUD overlay, if we make a big enough noise about it.

Things like that are where our efforts are best spent, not telling them to throw the whole thing out & start again.
 
Everyone is entitled to their view. I see three main exploration camps with regards to new exploration mechanics.

Type-1: I want to keep my infinite scan honk because I want to know what is in the system before I scan interesting planets or look for scenic views. This seems strange to me as it like an explorer wanting to know the unknown before exploring it. Some just want quick credits.

Type-2: Some CMDRS enjoy supercruising and like to fly around the system in their ship to scan planets.

Type-3: Like the more involved game mechanics and finding the unknown, infinite honk reveal all destroys the new game mechanics.

I think some commanders have been conditioned by years of Elite role play that pressing one button and pointing your ship at planets is exploration because exploration was so hollow. That's how I see things.

Personally from what I've read, I like FDev new exploration mechanics.

I am between 2 & 3. I like to supercruise around, but I like to have in-game stuff to do whilst flying.
 
(I know this post breaks the only-reply-to-FD "rule" but I think it's important that FD can understand and contextualise those areas where players' opinions differ, and sometimes that means highlighting a contrary opinion. Besides, if they wanted to enforce the rules shouldn't this have been in FF? :p)

You do know that other than a few close exceptions, the star background isn't actual stars in the game right?
Unless something has radically changed in the last few years and I missed it, I am 99.99% certain you are wrong on this. The reason the hyperspace jump takes so long is because it's building the skybox using every star visible from the ship's location. Overlays such as the galactic core, nebulae and interstellar dust are applied a little more loosely albeit still as realistically as the engine permits. But in general, if there's a distant point source of light on the screen, it's an actual star in the game.

Being able to navigate by directly targeting those stars within jump range has been a point of discussion since the Kickstarter. The Q4 QOL/Exploration update would seem like a golden opportunity to drop it into the game, if it's technically feasible.

I don't see the issue... All the discovery names will still remain. The difference is that people who take the time to scan the system FAR MORE THOROUGHLY than previous commanders will quite rightly get a new, separate name credit for doing so.
To be fair, it's not just that they'll be scanned more thoroughly than by previous CMDRs. It's that they'll be scanned more thoroughly than previous CMDR's could. It's a distinction easily lost if you're not in the completist headspace, but it might be significant for some and I understand fully why it's ruffling a few feathers.

When I first started exploring I kept a spreadsheet with all of my significant discoveries; first ELW, first fully-mapped system etc. but I quickly gave that up as it was taking more time to maintain than I was actually playing the game. When Q4 drops I will probably head back to the most significant ones so I can try to ensure my first ELW is mapped by me, and that my 100+ body fully scanned system gets the full mapping treatment (I'm a sucker for punishment).

What I'm not going to do is interrogate EDSM or my own logs in an attempt to First Map everything I've previously First Discovered, and even if that information was available directly in-game I still don't think I'd have the patience or inclination to do so. But I can't easily dismiss the concerns of those who will feel obligated to try, or who know they will live with a feeling of having been duped out of something by these changes. There are a range of motivations that drive the desire for exploration in ED, and not all explorers share them all. For those whose motivation is the need for a sense of completion, I can understand how needling this new First Mapped mechanic could seem.

Pre Q4 all systems already beeing discoverd and planets scanned should be credited to the commanders that located and scanned them first.
It's certainly an option. Is it the least worst option? I guess it depends on whether it would annoy newcomers more than not doing it would annoy completionists. Hard one for FD to call, really. We used to "resolve" such things with a referendu poll, but it was learned quite quickly that nothing good ever came from having a referendu poll.

well i would gladly look them up exept not every stinking system is logged as most where scanned pre horizons and there was no bookmarking , visited star logs in the galaxy map yet and even if it was it doesnt log systems on the server only on your pc /laptop or device your currently playing.
It does log them on the server; this is how the system map is able to tell you who First Discovered something when you enter or scan a system. What isn't possible, for historical technical reasons, is being able to quickly pull up all First Discoveries for a given CMDR. You have to tell the server what system you're interested in, then it returns the tags. It can't be done the other way around.

Something of a design oversight on FD's part IMO, but one we may be stuck with. This is a very good, if somewhat dry, video that explains some of this:

[video=youtube;EvJPyjmfdz0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0&feature=youtu.be[/video]

A couple of years ago someone, I think it was Michael Brookes, ran a custom script on the server and extracted a bunch of First Discovery By CMDR data in the form of a spreadsheet that was posted to the forums. So it can be done, just not in real time and not on an end-user client. At least not yet.

Also, why do you have to do it all over again? Your OCD so bad you need to surface map every single system you've discovered?
Dismissive (mis)use of "OCD" notwithstanding, yes there will be players who will feel a pressing need to go back and "fill in the blanks" on earlier discoveries. Those who do not have a complete list, or whose lists are so extensive that doing so would be impractical, may feel particularly aggrieved by this new system.

As a very borderline example I can empathise with that. If I don't get to First Map my very First Discovered ELW I'll be somewhat disappointed. Anything else I can take or leave. But I can barely begin to imagine how I'd feel if I was a completionist with thousands of systems I considered "done", only to be told I hadn't actually "finished" them yet. Or that someone else might beat me to it. Even if you don't understand the psychology of it, a little empathy isn't too much to ask. Something as small as this might literally be the end of the game for a handful of people. Not something I'd imagine any game developer wants to be responsible for, but such are the varied motivations that drive ED players.

Or, let me guess, you'll want 1st map credit because you "would have" mapped them if you "could have" mapped them.
It is a fair point though, isn't it? That will be absolutely the case for some players. You might disagree with their interpretation but they're not "wrong".

Maybe there's a compromise here. What if First Mapped is given to any CMDR who has fully First Discovered a system (minus belts, which most players stopped mapping years ago), but not to anyone who just cherry-picked one or two worlds? It's something of a broad distinction and as with most things there will be those on both "sides" who feel it doesn't fully meet their requirements. But it would give the absolute completionists their sense of closure without having to revisit thousands of systems, while those who just honk-and-go at high-value or photogenic planets will hopefully not be so bothered at not getting First Mapped too.

Ideally I'd prefer to see the whole thing as a HUD overlay, as others have already mentioned, but I don't think that's what we're getting.
I'm not entirely convinced by that. In the mocked-up screenshot, the Comms and Info panels are clearly visible. The only time we see these panels is from the pilot's in-seat POV. I wonder if that isn't a hint that the scanner screen is being developed as an overlay that can be wrapped onto the pseudo-3D in-cockpit view, and we're only assuming it's a galmap-style screen because it's rendered flat in the sneak peek.

I could be straw-clutching, of course, but there's so little to go on it would be folly to assume either way. (Disclaimer: I've only watched the first 20 minutes of the livestream video, so apologies if it's clarified in there).

If I understand the new procedure correctly, in the new screen you have a 360o rotation freedom. By having a separate screen it allows ships like the conda to have the same rotation speed as more agile ones, thus eliminating frustration for the gamer.
I'm not sure whether I like that interpretation or not. I hated the Anaconda when I first flew it after driving an Asp for over a year; the slow supercruise turn rate was distracting to the point where I wanted to scream. But I was ultimately seduced by the insane jump range and outfitting possibilities, so I learned to live with it and saw the slow turn rate as the price I had to pay for the other gains. It's a compromise, as many game choices should be.

Giving all ships the same speed for scanning purposes takes some of that away IMO. On the other hand, I guess there will be some Anaconda pilots tens of thousands of light years from the bubble who will go absolutely nuts if their scan rate is determined by the ship's rotation. It could be the final straw for some, and such concerns can't be dismissed any more than the completionists' concerns from earlier in the discussion.

I guess a constant scan rate across the fleet is the least worst option in this case, but it'll be a pity. Another nuance of ship choice lost. (All assuming the scanner is controlled by ship movement, of course. If it's something separate, like the telepresence guns on the SRV, it's all a moot point anyway).

* Noone who has visited systems in the past is losing anything. Their names will always remain as they are now. They will just be joined by people who have used new tools to find out a bit more. Just like Columbus discovered the New World in 1492, those who came after him were able to discover a lot more using newer and improved tools. This is exactly the same, and makes absolute sense. Your initial discovery will never be taken away from you - but you never discovered everything about those systems because the tools were not invented at the time.
+1 That's a very practical and Zen-like way of looking at it. It certainly works for me. But I also appreciate that it may not be enough headcanon for those who feel they've been baited-and-switched on some aspects of the exploration mechanic.

On a more general note, I fear that those posters who are offering radical reinterpretations of what FD have put forward here -- even those ideas that seem subjectively better in many ways -- might be wasting their pixels. At this point it's almost certain that many hundreds of manhours have already have been allocated to this update, and that a significant amount of code already exists. Unless new ideas can be worked into what little we already know, FD may be very limited in what directional changes are now possible. And while there is some merit in the idealistic argument that FD shouldn't have coded byte one without consulting the community, they tried that before with the DDF and it didn't work out well at all. It took weeks to reach anything approaching a consensus, and in many cases that consensus was ignored anyway.

Not trying to deflate anyone's balloon here. Discussion is good, and it occasionally leads to significant improvements to the game. But if you don't want to be disappointed, or end up feeling as though you're "not being listened to", small tweaks and direction changes are more likely to see the light of day than radical rethinks at this point. This is how extensions to the ED house are built these days. The community may help pick the decor, but the foundations and structure are generally out of our hands.
 
I realize that I don't chime in on the forums much. I felt like I had to this time around.

I realize that many of my questions may have already been answered. I didn't have time to go through all 119 pages, so a courtesy summary is appreciated.

---

I am a vested voice in the Elite Dangerous community. I stream content from Elite Dangerous on average of three nights a week or more. I want to see this succeed. But in order for me to support the dramatic changes, I need to understand them, see them, and ultimately, try them. I realize that two static screenshots cannot possibly do the work and planning and design that has went into this corner of the Q4 update any justice, so please understand that this is really just my first impression, gut reactions.

---

The Discovery Scanner

  • Will the Discovery Scanner camera view be automatic or optional?
    • If optional, will we need to map another button to access that interface?
    • If automatic, what does it mean to the common practice of "Jonking" or simply travelling between points, attempting to get scan data (passive, low investment) on a per-system basis?
  • What about discovering system bodies using parallax? Is that still something that is possible? Is it just not pragmatic?
  • What does this mean for the System Map interface?
    • Will it still be used?
    • Only populated after bodies are scanned individually?
    • What about 'known' or visited systems? Will they unpopulate?
    • Any chance we can see a demo of what the System Map will look like after the proposed changes?
  • What will a 'jonk' yield, or will that no longer be possible?
    • What is the time required to identify and get basic information for all bodies in a system?
    • Is it changing from what it is now?
  • How about planets far away from the entry point, on remote binaries for instance?
    • Will a player need to zoom in on each distant star, and scan each body to determine if there are planets of interest at medium to long range from system entry points?
  • What about interdictions / velocity while in the DS Camera?
    • Does using the sensor array / Discover Scanner mean your ship has to be oriented in the direction you are attempting to scan?
    • Does the sensor array / Discover Scanner function more as a 'turreted' overlay?
    • Will players using exploration tools be more vulnerable to being interdicted, by either NPC or player ships if they have to focus on the Discovery Camera instead of the scanner?


Unidentified Signal Sources
I've spent far too much time waiting for random High-Grade Emission signal sources to spawn hunting down materials to fully believe in my heart of Imperial hearts that ANY change to exclude random occurrence from the process is a welcome change. This excites me.



  • Because USS's will be located using the Discovery Camera now, does that imply that a Discovery Scanner is required to find USS's henceforth?
    • If so, this could be negatively received by people that do not wish to use a module slot on their ship.
    • If not, should the Discovery Camera be renamed to something else? Perhaps Sensor Camera?

Detailed Surface Scanners

  • What about existing engineered modules, like the DSS?
    • I've put a lot of hours in gathering resources for Fast DSS's. I value efficiency, and being able to 'map' or Discover something 5x faster than I would otherwise maximizes my gameplay value. Will those choices translate over with parity to the new version of the DSS, or will the existing upgrades be forfeit?
    • I'd heard on the livestream today something about the ability for a DSS engineered to carry more 'ammo' of micro probes. If this is the only option for engineering DSS's, I don't feel that it is an adequate exchange.
  • What if you scan something and then FDev adds a site to a planet in that system later...
    • Do you have to rescan it?
    • Will it 'appear,' and if so, is there a notification? (A system you previously scanned at SNOOFY XY-Z e42 has a new location on B 4 b)

First Mapped By


  • ALL Planets? Even Water Worlds and Earth-Like Worlds? (Scanning Earth was mentioned briefly at the end of today's livestream)

Closing Thoughts

  • As no doubt many have already echoed, this will indeed be something that we need to see in action to make a clear assessment on the benefits or drawbacks of these changes.
  • In the future, when Frontier Dev offers up work in progress screenshots, perhaps also include a second version of the screenshot with annotations to help the community interpret the new interface.
  • Understanding that there are many types of players (skill, time, passion, intensity, etc.) makes it increasingly difficult to make a unilateral change and have it be adopted across the entire community. I'd really rather see things be additions or alternatives to existing mechanics than mandated changes, and generally believe that the reception would be better if players had it as an option rather than a requirement
  • I've got my 9th anniversary holiday trip coming up with my beloved wife, who graciously accepts that I love this game as a close second. We'll be AFK as I remind her that she still has the top spot at the end of September and beginning of October. I sincerely hope that the time for the Beta and testing and providing meaningful feedback on these proposed changes does not start and conclude at that time.
  • As always, I want to thank the dedicated men and women at Frontier Developments for continuing to make best efforts at developing and improving this game that has become a cherished part of so many of our lives.
 
Hopefully we also get to view our data while not being docked.
Or any way to filter discoveries made, like ELW or ammonia worlds, on the fly.
 
Consider adding rogue planets. These would be a prompt in hyperspace which says something along the lines of "Gravitational anomaly detected" and then gives you the option of investigating by dropping out of warp. The intrigue of rogue planets would be that the skybox is as bright as it can get, and also the planets could maybe go outside of normal stellar forge parameters to make them visually very interesting and occasionally exceptionally bizarre. They could be goldmines for surface deposits maybe. You could stumble on a rogue planet that has antimony more common than iron perhaps. These could be rare encounters and maybe you cant get to a planet more than once because they aren't saved on the map.
 
Just wondering if it's possible for the EM spectrum widget do dah thingy to be displayed as you honk, and for it to stay up on the normal screen as you keep the honker button down?

That means on my way to sage a* or whatever, I can honk, and use the EM spectrum to work out if there are any ELW or things that interest me, then immediately jump if there isn't anything interesting.

This would actually be a time improvement, as I wouldn't have to check the system map.
 
So the current basic loadout for explorer ship is:
shield
dss
ads
fuel scoop
No problem, even the sidey can do this.

Add SRV requirement for synth these ships can no longer be fit for exploration
viper
eagle
ieagle
DBS
hauler
sidey

Was this really the plan?

This is what concerns me most.
(I did not read to the end of the thread yet so I'm not sure whether this has been addressed yet or not.)
 
Morning lads.

BIG question for FD: Will you be adding new content to support this new exploration mechanic apart from standard USS's? Say for example on the planets that we find?

Wont be much point in all this unless it is so.
Say for example:

Crystal fields.
Mineable deposits.
Defendable deposits.
Landgrabs.
Caves!
Ancient ruins and tech.
Maps to far away places (with a big reward)
Crashed megaships. (With loot)
Junkyards (With engine parts etc...)
Data and synthesis stashes
Racetracks! (beaconed and lit canyons)

A dark obelisk?

I really do hope so. Otherwise it will be "Tea" all over again.
 
Before:

People wanted depth, skill and no honk and go.

After:

We want depth, skill AND honk and go.

I have some sympathy for the idea that it would be nice to see an outline of all bodies in the system without having to scan them. That said Ive not tried the new system. More importantly people are largely deciding what's 'interesting to see' based on what planets we currently have (and importantly what's landable) and what's currently on them. The later will most certainly change in this update with new rock surface features and more things to potentially find on the surface.

I'd say that if in the next 12 months we are able to land on many more planets, this new system will look vastly different because many more planets you find will now be interesting, worth scanning and visiting. Of course Frontier aren't going to confirm atmospherics to try and justify this system and we shouldn't take it as read. But at some point all or nearly all planets will be landable and as such we should look at this mechanic with that in mind.

Edit: it's perhaps worth pointing out that the graph should very quickly give you an overview of what's in a system in terms of rock - - - > gas. It's not as if you'll be scanning blind and finding you've done it 20 times and only found lumps of rock.
 
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Morning lads.

BIG question for FD: Will you be adding new content to support this new exploration mechanic apart from standard USS's? Say for example on the planets that we find?

Wont be much point in all this unless it is so.
Say for example:

Crystal fields.
Mineable deposits.
Defendable deposits.
Landgrabs.
Caves!
Ancient ruins and tech.
Maps to far away places (with a big reward)
Crashed megaships. (With loot)
Junkyards (With engine parts etc...)
Data and synthesis stashes
Racetracks! (beaconed and lit canyons)

A dark obelisk?

I really do hope so. Otherwise it will be "Tea" all over again.

They've said they will be seeding the universe with stuff to fund, so yes. We also know there will be space lightning amongst other stuff in, we'll, space.
 
Just wondering if it's possible for the EM spectrum widget do dah thingy to be displayed as you honk, and for it to stay up on the normal screen as you keep the honker button down?

That means on my way to sage a* or whatever, I can honk, and use the EM spectrum to work out if there are any ELW or things that interest me, then immediately jump if there isn't anything interesting.

This would actually be a time improvement, as I wouldn't have to check the system map.

Hi, NSR2. I suggested something along those lines last night: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ation-Reveal?p=7015094&viewfull=1#post7015094
 
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