News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

See post above :)

Note I'm being devil's advocate here because I Iike doing so and it's healthy :)

But then you do find its location. That's exploration, right? Finding stuff not just having it given to us on a plate. It's a breadcrumb trail..

Read signals > make decision > locate object > scan object > probe object > land on object > find interesting things on object and take photos > post exploration tale of discovery on forum.
 
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Would I be right in my assumption that when a system is entered & 'honked' that the new system would still bring up the list of objects in the Navigation Panel.

This being so, it could well be quicker to use the Navigation Panel instead, clicking through the list & hopping back to main screen & looking at the Planets 'hologram' image.

I'v been doing this since the system map was 'upgraded' making quite a lot of HMC's indistinguishable from Rock/Ice Worlds. Got used to doing this pretty quick too.


Added

Yeah just jumped in game & looked.

The system I jumped to, from the system map, may contain HMC's or Rock/Ice Planets, but which are which? The 'hologram image isn't always 100% accurate could be either
This is where this ADS system becomes useful to me. I can now activate the scanner to get the signal of the HMC's. That would mean I didn't have to travel to it to find out it's only a Ice Planet.

Now that's how this ADS scanner should be used in game.
 
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Rightho FD.

A question on behalf of Ziggy, myself and others:
How hard will it be to discern relative positions, trajectory ,size and properties of objects using the new wave system?

I think that's a fair enough question.
Appreciate the post!

During the live stream it was brought up, they didn't have an answer ready, but said the concern would be taken into consideration.

All we can ask for :)
 
I'v been doing this since the system map was 'upgraded' making quite a lot of HMC's indistinguishable from Rock/Ice Worlds. Got used to doing this pretty quick too.
Still, two of four HMC holograms are shared with Rocky Bodies (which have only one unique hologram themselves)...
 
Note I'm being devil's advocate here because I Iike doing so and it's healthy :)

But then you do find its location. That's exploration, right? Finding stuff not just having it given to us on a plate. It's a breadcrumb trail..

Read signals > make decision > locate object > scan object > probe object > land on object > find interesting things on object and take photos > post exploration tale of discovery on forum.
You're describing the part of the new exploration mechanics I haven't got an issue with.

I really do like the new mechanics, can't wait to see them showcased on a live stream, can't wait to put them in practice. Happy about the direction exploration is taking. This is not me dumping on the entirety of the new system. With or without the information of the system map, I'll be making use of it extensively I think. It's just that without the system map info I'll use it less than I would have. The way I see it, they complement each other, they don't detract from one another.
 
Stuff isn't "given to us on a plate".

For the things I - and it seems a significant number of others - like to find, you have to hit a lot of systems. I'm not particularly interested in POIs or USSes, and I highly doubt I will be whatever FD come up with. I like rare or beautiful combinations of bodies or stunning vistas, deep fissures and close binaries, mountain ranges with plateaus you can land on, places to land where you see a nearby nebula inching from behind a hill with the rings of a close gas giant framing the scene. These things cannot be measured, any more than you can put an exact figure on how beautiful Vermeer's Lady Standing At A Virginal is, or precisely HOW rock and roll Iggy Pop slathered in peanut butter in 1970 was.

Which is why it's vital to be able to be able to quickly see what's in a system before going further with scans or probes.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
This would be great if not essential ... I'm just not convinced it does so yet hence the need to try and get this point seen and noted by the dev's. As a suggested alternative, how about being able to switch to different types of scanner mode other than gravitational anomalies (e.g. spectrographic analyis that allows us to focus on things like water, amonia or CO[SUB]2[/SUB] for identifying water worlds, amonia worlds of earth likes rather than just things with high mass).

This is a great idea!

And I don't think the signatures will be unique. They will be on a different place on the scale and that's how you'll need to learn which value represents given planet type. That's how I understand it at least.
 
Yet another question for the devs.

Once the initial ads scan (or honk) has been done, do the orbital lines show up?

If so then pilots could quickly make a sharpish dash to say the third planet or whatever if they need to.
 
Yet another question for the devs.

Once the initial ads scan (or honk) has been done, do the orbital lines show up?

If so then pilots could quickly make a sharpish dash to say the third planet or whatever if they need to.

This was asked on last night's stream.......Yes!
 
Wow, very cool stuff! Thank you for this! I think I'll be out for exploration again.

What we really need in addition to the new scanner are utilities with which we can generate our own waypoints or marks, especially on planet surfaces and a surface map, where we can see or locate our own position (of the ship and the srv). This should not be too hard to implement and would be cool for explorers.

What I also would like to see in the game is being able to scan the surface of the planet with my ship scanner. So I would have the choice of using the probes or flying near the surface and scan the surface on my own with some sort of a terrain radar/scan system.
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
Yet another question for the devs.

Once the initial ads scan (or honk) has been done, do the orbital lines show up?

If so then pilots could quickly make a sharpish dash to say the third planet or whatever if they need to.

I think they've said yes to that on the stream yesterday.

You could also potentially follow an orbit line while in Scanner View to catch the signature of the planet you're hunting for.
 
Wow, very cool stuff! Thank you for this! I think I'll be out for exploration again.

What we really need in addition to the new scanner are utilities with which we can generate our own waypoints or marks, especially on planet surfaces and a surface map, where we can see or locate our own position (of the ship and the srv). This should not be too hard to implement and would be cool for explorers.

What I also would like to see in the game is being able to scan the surface of the planet with my ship scanner. So I would have the choice of using the probes or flying near the surface and scan the surface on my own with some sort of a terrain radar/scan system.

Waypoint tags on planets....Yes please!

Waypoints on route plotting too.......I still get a 'plot fail' on a 900LY route because a 'dog leg' is needed to traverse a 'permit locked' region.
 
You're describing the part of the new exploration mechanics I haven't got an issue with.

I really do like the new mechanics, can't wait to see them showcased on a live stream, can't wait to put them in practice. Happy about the direction exploration is taking. This is not me dumping on the entirety of the new system. With or without the information of the system map, I'll be making use of it extensively I think. It's just that without the system map info I'll use it less than I would have. The way I see it, they complement each other, they don't detract from one another.

There could be a compromise. Planets that have moons or planets that orbit each other could be counted as one signal on the analysis. This would speed things up considerably when scanning them. So when you successfully scan that signal you get the planet/s and all it's moons as they are very close and could be considered one item.
 
This is what concerns me most.
(I did not read to the end of the thread yet so I'm not sure whether this has been addressed yet or not.)

Is it really a concern? You can still honk-and-jump and get some cash for exploration if you must use a non-exploration ship for exploration. All of the ships mentioned in that list (Viper, Eagle, iEagle, DBS, Hauler, Sidey) weren't the best for exploration anyway. Sure you could use them (and indeed a friend got to the other side of the galaxy in a hauler), but it's a bit like taking an Orca into a combat zone.
 
59d7bcf4-618c-43e9-9b3e-3ae4515c299d.png


It was mentioned yesterday on stream that the 'lowresness' of the planetary body of this screenshot might not have been intended. Actually, i hope it will be low res, pixelated and less colorful, until the scanner has fully aligned/tuned in onto the signal of the body.

I have created a mockup:
uUKAd85.png
 
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Flag planting?

As I see it there are a couple of things that need to happen to make this work. In general the dynamic of making Exploration harder is fine, as long as it's more worthwhile.

I have some thoughts I fancied putting out there. Please feel free to comment.

If you want to keep the immersion aspect alive then I think moving a situation where, from a honk, you can only find the star right in front of you is a bit of stretch. If a computer can fly you across thousands of light years in space, I'd expect that a scanner can at the very least automatically say "I've found at least 8 significant gravity wells in this system that are likely to be planets, possibly with moons, and they're roughly in these places". As many seem to have suggested, that could be represented by showing blanks on the system map, and doing away with the HUD images for planets which are far too much of a giveaway at the moment. How many of us just honk, select each planet and then move on if they don't find any HUD images without the little jigsaw piece at the bottom left that represents an ELW?

Once you have a high level map of the gravity wells then, as I see it you have a couple of options. You can either use the spangly new scanner to find what's out there (which gives you more information than just a honk), or you can fly towards the gravity well and when you get close, honk again. That second honk when you're closer gives you the number and location of any orbiting moons and the like. I think the key here is making the process of finding the location of something and its makeup distinct things. The ADS tells you roughly where something is, the DSS tells you what each thing is and if there's anything interesting to do there.

Which is my second key point. I don't mind putting effort into detailed scanning and probing a planet (it sounds like it could be fun), as long as there's a reasonable chance of finding something genuinely interesting. That might be surface locations with specific materials, or tree formations, or barnacles or any other manner of interesting things that haven't yet been thought of. Explorers want to feel like we're the first to find something genuinely exciting and share our finds with the world. Think Star Trek and going where no one has gone before.

Which brings me to my last point. Why not let us place an actual marker on a planet to say we've been there. I would love to be able to plant a beacon (a 34th Century Flag) to say I had physically landed on a planet with my CMDR name and date/time and for other people finding that planet later to see that beacon when they DSS it. Hell if you want to go the whole hog, why not have the act of planting a beacon make the details for that planet appear for everyone on first honk. That way exploring becomes a community effort and each find becomes of use to everyone else in the galaxy.

I realise the mechanics of this are such that much of it may be impossible to implement given the number of stars and planets and system users, but the 4 salient points are:

1) make it relatively easy to know that "something" is out there

2) give us the option to find it using the new scanner from afar or to fly in the general direction and learn more (for those who don't carry all the best equipment or just want to fly around to look for stuff)

3) make getting the detail harder but more likely to yield genuinely interesting results

4) let us make our mark and share what we find with other players or explorers passing through.


If those steps could be implemented then I think you suddenly have a genuinely interesting proposition on your hands. From what I've seen the current build is not that far off this and much of the above (with the exception of 34th century flag planting) could be done with only minor tweaks.

What do y'all think?
 
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As a suggested alternative, how about being able to switch to different types of scanner mode other than gravitational anomalies (e.g. spectrographic analyis that allows us to focus on things like water, amonia or CO[SUB]2[/SUB] for identifying water worlds, amonia worlds of earth likes rather than just things with high mass).

Quoting this because, it’s a very simple but effective idea to enable explorers who want to detect the planets of their choice speedily, before deciding to move on or not.

This could show up identicly as the augmented view shown in the live stream example (blue blurry patches), and as you apply the filters. Some blurry blue patches will change colour perhaps to a green blur for ammonia worlds etc...

Although, Frontier are working so us players will have a good sense of interpretation with the existing scanner apparently. But the above technique is easy and simple so still worth considering I feel.

Flimley
 
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I think they've said yes to that on the stream yesterday.

You could also potentially follow an orbit line while in Scanner View to catch the signature of the planet you're hunting for.

So, we can't see the body but its orbit in our windshield... this is exactly opposite as it is done in astronomy. You detect the body first and determine the orbit later, based on a series of observations along it. So, we can't have a body detection as soon as we initially "honk" the system but their orbits will be displayed?. Nop. This is illogical.

It is really "scientifically" easy to simulate. During the "honk" our 33th century onboard telescope takes a series of 360º full-sky pictures and analyze them, looking for moving dots by parallax. We are traversing the system at superluminal speeds, after all. After that, give me a series of blurry pictures of the bodies detected and its relative positions in system (the actual ADS behavior) whom i'll have to "study" with my super-duper 33th century wave detector. This way, we have both the old and the new system combined.
 
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Once you become familiar with the "type" scale it'll be quite intuitive to look for a set type of planet.

I'd give it a week before someone will have added the type wibbles to the wiki.
 
Meanwhile, back on page 112.

It's not just about being used to it. Here is what it is:

Now, if I travel long distances I check the system map each jump and see what the Stellar Forge has cooked up for me. This might distract me into diving into a system. So a travel session turns into an improv exploration session. I check out more systems than not having the system map at my disposal. And the shame is, with these new probe mechanics, I could be distracted once more during my distraction. It's a vortex of distraction.

If this new system is implemented, I'll just travel. I will indeed honk and scoop and scan the occasional ELW, but there's nothing to tell me: check out this system, it's a great looking system. Travel doesn't turn into an exploration event, it's just buckyballing where I am headed and that's it.

So, no, it's not just force of habit, or getting used to a new mechanic. It's about having less incentives to investigate a system.

edit: Blimey, should have realised this was 10 pages ago. Pre-empt added at beginning of the post.

I think you're making some assumption there wont be any clues in the energy distribution signal that says "this system is unusual or interesting". It seems pretty clear from the amplitude, distribution, and the range discriminator that we'll be able to see much more info that is currently available on the cartoon-like out-of-proportion system map just by scrolling through and tuning the various "channels" of the system. If you know how to read it, you won't be missing any information. It will just be presented as a signal instead of an image, and the signal will contain far more information than the current ADS system map does now.
 
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