Opinions on combat logging

Are you that shocked that pilots don’t kill every ship they pull, or are you just trolling?

If I'm completely honest, a bit of both.

I'm a pure PvEer these days, and lucky enough to know enough people to have a good multiplayer experience in private groups (not just Mobius). I've also been round long enough to know that though I dislike PvP, my time in Eve tells me I am (or at least was) pretty good at it. And the fights I have been in here say that yes I am shocked that some people take as long as 15 seconds to make the kill...

I'm also just as shocked that so many people don't even fit basic defences.


Still, we should be talking about average times here. While it might take 15s to kill a PvP fitted battle Vette, 99% of "customers" will be flying things that die in 5s. If you set the timer to fit the meta ship, then you condemn the average player to death whenever a determined player picks them. And if they use the menu to leave, they should at least have a chance to survive. A 15s timer guarantees they won't.

As to the alt-f4 types, I don't care what happens. Well, I kinda do as there might be a good reason, but usually not.
 
Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying, Siobhan. :)

I think in my own brain I was just thinking of the Big 3 and didn't explain that. Whoops? Those absolutely can last long enough to survive the 15 second timer, in my experience. Smaller ships, no, you're usually smoked right out like you said.
 
Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying, Siobhan. :)

I think in my own brain I was just thinking of the Big 3 and didn't explain that. Whoops? Those absolutely can last long enough to survive the 15 second timer, in my experience. Smaller ships, no, you're usually smoked right out like you said.

They can last 15+ seconds in literally everyone's experience. Everyone that's ever tried it, I mean. Reading Siobahns post, I'm just scratching my head wondering where that's coming from.
 
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Ah this remind me of my youth 40 pages ago when we discussed to death how the timer was stupid because godmode ships where lasting 15+ secs anyway.

Glad to see everyone here agree nowadays it's totally unfair for small ships. Let's remove the timer now shall we FDev. It's stupid. All those gentlemen aren't even menu logging anyway.

Except for this guy on page 16 who menu logged while docking his T9. And the other who got ganked by several poles of the slot. and this other one who got to pee IRL. True elite of the federation always have hours long session with strictly no disconnect and sit on a pot if peristaltism show it's ugly rear.
 

Deleted member 115407

D
Did y'all man-up yet, or what?

P.S. 15 seconds is a massive exaggeration. Well for well engineered little guys anyways. I can imagine stock little guys can get vaporized pretty fast.

Also, I literally read less than a sentence of the conversation that spurred that reply.

And 90skid is right.
 
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If I'm completely honest, a bit of both.

I'm a pure PvEer these days, and lucky enough to know enough people to have a good multiplayer experience in private groups (not just Mobius). I've also been round long enough to know that though I dislike PvP, my time in Eve tells me I am (or at least was) pretty good at it. And the fights I have been in here say that yes I am shocked that some people take as long as 15 seconds to make the kill...

I'm also just as shocked that so many people don't even fit basic defences.


Still, we should be talking about average times here. While it might take 15s to kill a PvP fitted battle Vette, 99% of "customers" will be flying things that die in 5s. If you set the timer to fit the meta ship, then you condemn the average player to death whenever a determined player picks them. And if they use the menu to leave, they should at least have a chance to survive. A 15s timer guarantees they won't.

As to the alt-f4 types, I don't care what happens. Well, I kinda do as there might be a good reason, but usually not.

Watch literally any good PVP combat and the fights take a minimum of 6 minutes.

If someone is being killed within 15 seconds, they're doing something SERIOUSLY wrong in their build, and they need help.

Also, I bet it's as challenging killing a decent player in 15 seconds as it is finding someone who can pronounce your name correctly lmao.
 
Lots of people here express great pleasure in combat logging (be it menu exit or alt+F4) on players to extract salt. That is no different to someone expressing great pleasure in destroying players to extract salt. If one is griefing so is the other.

If you do not see that logic you are a griefer too
You are talking out of the wrong end and making a mess, which is far from unusual for the true griefer/ganker (inc. apologist) sub-section of the PvP community in these forums. :rolleyes:

It is you who can not see the difference... true combat logging is cheating and reportable as such, menu logging is not regardless of the circumstances, and griefing is something else entirely. The difference is marked and not as nuanced as you are implying.

If some choose to brag about true "combat logging" on these forums then FD should do something about them, the same goes for anyone that brags about engaging in habitual true and blatant griefing. Arguably they should also at least issue formal warnings to anyone that tries to defend the rights of CMDRs to engage in these behaviours in ED.

As for the menu loggers that brag about it, that is another matter entirely. It is little different from those that extract salt on these forums for ganking other players. Neither forums behaviours should really be allowed but that does not make either case griefing. Only ganking behaviours can devolve into actual griefing.
 
You are talking out of the wrong end and making a mess, which is far from unusual for the true griefer/ganker (inc. apologist) sub-section of the PvP community in these forums. :rolleyes:

It is you who can not see the difference... true combat logging is cheating and reportable as such, menu logging is not regardless of the circumstances, and griefing is something else entirely. The difference is marked and not as nuanced as you are implying.

If some choose to brag about true "combat logging" on these forums then FD should do something about them, the same goes for anyone that brags about engaging in habitual true and blatant griefing. Arguably they should also at least issue formal warnings to anyone that tries to defend the rights of CMDRs to engage in these behaviours in ED.

As for the menu loggers that brag about it, that is another matter entirely. It is little different from those that extract salt on these forums for ganking other players. Neither forums behaviours should really be allowed but that does not make either case griefing. Only ganking behaviours can devolve into actual griefing.

So hang on, you're saying its fine to combatlog/menulog as long as its considered a grief. Like not engaged in powerplay/bgs/world events?
 
I for one love how rlsg will defend to the death the act of menu logging to escape in-game consequences as one hundred percent valid one hundred percent of the time...

And yet throw her hands in the air and declare that any PvP that hurts someone's feelers to be EULA-breaking griefing.
 
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Watch literally any good PVP combat and the fights take a minimum of 6 minutes.

If someone is being killed within 15 seconds, they're doing something SERIOUSLY wrong in their build, and they need help.
False reasoning, and irrelevant - most staged PvP fights will probably be between people that have agreed to it and will be in motion. There are also numerous factors that will affect TTK including engagement ranges, damage fall-off and the firing arcs of those involved. Just because someone does not exploit resistance or health stacking to ridiculous levels in the context of the general game environment also does not mean that they are necessarily doing anything wrong with their builds either, ED is not essentially a PvP-focused game and ED Open environment is not primarily a PvP-focused environment (it allows it but that does not make it a requirement of it). The only "mode" of ED that can truly be called PvP focused is CQC.

Regardless, the menu timer is not necessarily there to allow for a kill to occur and during that time our individual ships are essentially sitting ducks. The menu timer is also applied in variety of circumstances, not just exit in combat or PvP circumstances.
 
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declare that any PvP that hurts someone's feelers to be EULA-breaking griefing.
False representation on your part - Exaggerated and disingenuous extrapolation of what I have stated.

Saying that the griefing offense is subjective is not the same as saying that any PvP that hurts someone's feelings is actual griefing. The targeted individual may believe that there is merit in their complaint(s) against specific CMDRs, but it is upto FD or their delegate to make the true judgement. In the general case, if PvPers exhibit a modicum of restraint and common sense then they should never be found at the wrong end of a shadow ban for griefing.
 
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False representation on your part - Exaggerated and disingenuous extrapolation of what I have stated.

Saying that the griefing offense is subjective is not the same as saying that any PvP that hurts someone's feelings is actual griefing. The targeted individual may believe that there is merit in their complaint(s) against specific CMDRs, but it is upto FD or their delegate to make the true judgement. In the general case, if PvPers exhibit a modicum of restraint and common sense then they should never be found at the wrong end of a shadow ban for griefing.


Careful there. You're dangerously close to admitting that it's Frontier who defines what is and isn't cheating and not yourself, which means that your nonsense about shield booster stacking being a breach of the EULA might finally be soon put out of its misery.
 
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False reasoning, and irrelevant - most staged PvP fights will probably be between people that have agreed to it and will be in motion. There are also numerous factors that will affect TTK including engagement ranges, damage fall-off and the firing arcs of those involved. Just because someone does not exploit resistance or health stacking to ridiculous levels in the context of the general game environment also does not mean that they are necessarily doing anything wrong with their builds either, ED is not essentially a PvP-focused game and ED Open environment is not primarily a PvP-focused environment (it allows it but that does not make it a requirement of it). The only "mode" of ED that can truly be called PvP focused is CQC.

Regardless, the menu timer is not necessarily there to allow for a kill to occur and during that time our individual ships are essentially sitting ducks. The menu timer is also applied in variety of circumstances, not just exit in combat or PvP circumstances.
False reasoning, and irrelevant - if you're getting rekt in 15 seconds you're not taking into account the dangers that you'll face and are therefore being punished. If your trade build has 1E Shield Generators and negative armour then you ARE factually doing something wrong.

Cars aren't MEANT to crash, but in the event that it does happen you have mitigating factors in order to save people. You aren't MEANT to get into combat, but you SHOULD be taking actions to avoid the risk to your ship and cargo.

How about you alter your build instead of combat logging? Personal responsibility seems to have been thrown out the window these days. The SECOND you step into OPEN you are inviting ANYONE to interact with you in ANY WAY.

There is no such thing as consent to a pirate, or a murderer, that's the whole f'in point for God's sake.
 
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Griefing is generally defined as behavior intended to cause grief (irritation, anguish, etc) to another player.
Generally speaking, a single incident involving two specific players is not considered intentional or deliberate griefing. Normally, for a griefing to be actionable there would have to be a pattern between the two individuals in question. That would notionally require at least 3 incidents or other corroborating evidence in order for intent to be established.

If anyone genuinely believes that someone is engaging in harassing behaviours by using the 15 timer, then the problem in question is the individual's behaviour rather than the timer itself. Arguing for the timer to be changed because of such behaviours only plays into the hands of those that engage in other behaviours, and unreasonably penalises players in other cases.

Let's take some simple illustrative incident use cases for reference:-

  1. Player A engages Player B near spawning place X and kills them, waits for them to respawn and repeats the process ad nauseum. This would most likely be consider griefing by any reasonable person
  2. Player A engages Player B, player B combat logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED, finds themselves in the same instance and combat logs after Player A engages them again, etc. Combat Logging is the offence in this case.
  3. Player A engages Player B, player B menu logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED, finds themselves in the same instance and menu logs after Player A engages them again, etc. Player A could be considered guilty of harassment in this case, depending on the precise circumstances but ultimately Player B is not essentially at fault since they have not gone out their way to put themselves into the situation even if they did choose Open.
  4. Player A engages Player B, player B combat logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED into a different mode/instance, and continues as normal. Player B is guilty of combat logging but proving it as such is tenuous.
  5. Player A engages Player B, player B menu logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED into a different mode/instance, and continues as normal. Player B is not guilty of anything in this case.
  6. Player B engages Player B, player B combat logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED, finds themselves in the same instance and combat logs after engaging Player A again, etc. Player B could be guilty of both harassment and combat logging in this specific case.
  7. Player B engages Player B, player B menu logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED, finds themselves in the same instance and menu logs after engaging Player Aagain, etc. Player B could be considered guilty of harassment since they have gone out of their way to create the circumstances.
    [*=left]Player B engages Player A, player B menu logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED into a different mode/instance, and continues as normal. Player B could be guilty of combat logging in this case but proving it as such is tenuous.

    [*=left]Player B engages Player A, player B menu logs on Player A, Player B relogs into ED into a different mode/instance, and continues as normal. Player B is not really guilty of anything in this case, but if they do this to different people habitually then it is not really a good thing to encourage.
In the cases 2, 4, 6, and 8 the complication is proving that the combat logging is not the result of some technical issue as opposed to a deliberate action on the Part of Player B.
In the cases 1 to 3, Player A could be found guilty of either harassment or griefing regardless of what Player B is guilty of.
In the cases 4, 5, 8, and 9 there would be nothing notionally actionable against Player B - additional corroborating evidence may change that but in cases 4 and 5 it could also incriminate Player A as being a griefer.

This leaves us with the odd-ball case 7, where Player B is going out of their way to harass another player then exit the game on them. Whether it can be considered griefing or not is another matter but ultimately the menu timer is not the problem. As with case 1, it is the pattern of behaviour not the game mechanics/balance at fault.

In short, griefing typically is considered to require the intentional destruction of another player's in-game assets through deliberate action. Any other form of repetitive targeted behaviour is just harassment - whether considered harassment in the legal sense of the term or not.
 
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False reasoning, and irrelevant - if you're getting rekt in 15 seconds you're not taking into account the dangers that you'll face and are therefore being punished. If your trade build has 1E Shield Generators and negative armour then you ARE factually doing something wrong.

Cars aren't MEANT to crash, but in the event that it does happen you have mitigating factors in order to save people. You aren't MEANT to get into combat, but you SHOULD be taking actions to avoid the risk to your ship and cargo.
Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed - ED is not just about combat and just because someone does not gear their ship up for it does not mean they are doing anything wrong either.

How about you alter your build instead of combat logging? Personal responsibility seems to have been thrown out the window these days.
Let's be clear here - actual combat logging is not condonable and using the menu timer is not combat logging. FTR personally, I do not engage in nor condone combat logging as per FD's definition.

The SECOND you step into OPEN you are inviting ANYONE to interact with you in ANY WAY.
That does not mean all patterns of interactions are permitted though. Griefing and Harassment are two examples of prohibited behaviours.

There is no such thing as consent to a pirate, or a murderer, that's the whole f'in point for God's sake.
There are some nuances to this, but ultimately ED is not "Pirates and Murderers Online", but even if it were like GTA Online in that regard there are certain patterns of PvP behaviours that are expressly prohibited.
 
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