Opinions on combat logging

[Smaste]

At this point the logger should really be asking themselves:

"What am I actually even doing in open?"

following FD's rules apparently lmao

 

[Perseus]

At this point the logger should really be asking themselves:

"What am I actually even doing in open?"

They are deliberately disrupting the gameplay of others with the intent of causing negative feelings by blatantly cheating.
AKA griefing.

 

[Krash]

They are deliberately disrupting the gameplay of others with the intent of causing negative feelings by blatantly cheating.
AKA griefing.

Sometimes twice over:
1) they pull me minding my own business
2) they realize the rebuy screen is near so instead of high wake, the menu log is the better option for whatever reason

Is this to increase the salt of their victims? I dunno

 

[Asp Explorer]

For some players, excitation of the sodium pumps of the opposing seat-to-keyboard-interface is the purest form of emergent gameplay interactictivity

 

[Rubbernuke]

So is there a good form of interdiction, or is everything bad?

 

[jasonbarron]

At this point the logger should really be asking themselves:

"What am I actually even doing in open?"

Good question. For the official record, I absolutely consider practitioners and forum advocates of clogging (or even menu logging during combat) to be the purest, most distilled version of a griefer. When I attack and attempt to destroy someone in game, I'm playing the game with the tools given to me (well, actually I paid a bunch of money for them) by Fdev themselves and I'm playing well within the intents of the game's various systems, and that's before layering in my very valid role play; someone can call me a griefer, but they're simply pulling the insult right out of their backsides with no legitimate evidence to back it up...while on the other hand, clogging and advocating of such on the forum and other media platforms has literally only one purpose that needs no deciphering

 

[SnowyNI]

And Salt is the new Sugar! Anyone feeling the rush yet?

 

[lenna]

So is there a good form of interdiction, or is everything bad?

Interdiction and PvP in general is not expressly an issue. Some PvEers may resent the lack of an Open PvE mode and/or the membership limits of Private Groups but that is another matter entirely.

Fundamentally, to answer your question, the problem starts with what happens after the interdiction. There is no such things as good or bad interdictions, they just are.

 

[Frank Craft]

FD have essentially admitted that the current excesses of shield booster stacking was unintentional, therefore by their own book of definitions utilisation of it is an exploit and therefore cheating and an EULA breech by their own rule book.

Good god, I've heard it all now. What next, a SWAT team breaking down the doors of "exploiters"?

 

[Makaan]

I don't agree with combat logging in open because you consent to PvP the moment you click Open Play.

If you don't want any risk of PvP, play in Solo or join Mobius.

Personally, I think Frontier should have made a separate PvE server, and in that, you can choose to engage in PvP only if both of you consent to it, kind of like Borderlands where you can challenge a squad member to a fight and they can either accept or decline.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Best possible way to avoid any kind of possible setbacks, or threat, is instead of clicking 'play', click the 'x' button and watch TV. But nothing too scary.

But then there's always the power button on your remote.

 

[Smaste]

Best possible way to avoid any kind of possible setbacks, or threat, is instead of clicking 'play', click the 'x' button and watch TV. But nothing too scary.

But then there's always the power button on your remote.

Why do that when FD allow you to "menu log" in combat? lol

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Why do that when FD allow you to "menu log" in combat? lol

But menu logging requires like, 3-4 button pressed and waiting 15 seconds...!

If you don't click play, then you don't even need to wait.

Logic.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Smaste]

But menu logging requires like, 3-4 button pressed and waiting 15 seconds...!

If you don't click play, then you don't even need to wait.

Logic.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

You make a good point, now if only all menu loggers would follow that advice!

 

[lenna]

I don't agree with combat logging in open because you consent to PvP the moment you click Open Play.

Combat Logging (as FD define it) is not justifiable regardless of the mode you are in, Menu Logging on the other hand is fair and reasonable.

Joining Open is not however granting a carte blanche consent to any and all PvP behaviours. FD created the Open environment obviously in the hope that people in general would not treat it like a PvP arena, what has transpired since release has shown that some PvPers fail to respect that hope/intent. The whole concept was doomed from the start, the moment you open the Pandora's box of allowing random PvP there will inevitably be some that push the boundaries of what people in general will tolerate.

If you don't want any risk of PvP, play in Solo or join Mobius.

The problem with that stance is the Mobius groups already have hit the membership limits of Private Groups many times over and Solo does not grant the option of co-operative multi-player gameplay.

Personally, I think Frontier should have made a separate PvE server, and in that, you can choose to engage in PvP only if both of you consent to it, kind of like Borderlands where you can challenge a squad member to a fight and they can either accept or decline.

I don't necessarily disagree with this principle; However, I think the general idea will never be done because some in the community seem to fear that Open mode would be abandoned sufficiently to declare it dead. FD could theoretically crack down harder on certain PvP behaviour patterns but doing so in a fair and reasonable manner is littered with complications. The 3.0 C&P/C&C changes were a good start and did so in an even handed way. There are other things that could be done in addition to that but whatever they choose to do there will always be some that object to it regardless.

 

[Smaste]

Combat Logging (as FD define it) is not justifiable regardless of the mode you are in, Menu Logging on the other hand is fair and reasonable.

Joining Open is not however granting a carte blanche consent to any and all PvP behaviours. FD created the Open environment obviously in the hope that people in general would not treat it like a PvP arena, what has transpired since release has shown that some PvPers fail to respect that hope/intent. The whole concept was doomed from the start, the moment you open the Pandora's box of allowing random PvP there will inevitably be some that push the boundaries of what people in general will tolerate.


The problem with that stance is the Mobius groups already have hit the membership limits many times over and Solo does not grant the option of co-operative multi-player gameplay.


I don't necessarily disagree with this principle; However, I think the general idea will never be done because some in the community seem to fear that Open mode would be abandoned sufficiently to declare it dead. FD could theoretically crack down harder on certain PvP behaviour patterns but doing so in a fair and reasonable manner is littered with complications. The 3.0 C&P/C&C changes were a good start and did so in an even handed way. There are other things that could be done in addition to that but whatever they choose to do there will always be some that object to it regardless.

wrong.

menu logging and randomly killing players are both perfectly acceptable methods of playing the game.

FD say so.

 

[lenna]

menu logging and randomly killing players are both perfectly acceptable methods of playing the game.

FD say so.

Actually, it is you that is essentially wrong...

I did not say menu logging was not allowed but true combat logging (deliberate forced termination of the gaming session in a combat setting) is prohibited - that much FD has made clear.

The random killing aspect was always intended to have limits (FD has already stated this - DB in their vision statement for ED) - it is just nigh on impossible to properly police such limits with automated mechanics.

[EDIT]See this YouTube from about 41:30 to 45:00 for FD's official position regarding Combat Logging, PvE, PvP, and the Open environment.

[/EDIT]​

 

[Commander Vesica Urinaria]

At the moment I avoid playing in Open until I've made enough credits to buy the ship I'm working towards, upgrade it and have enough for quite a few rebuys too.. When credits are not the issue anymore I still have to engineer it, including the guardian stuff because I mostly want to use it against Thargoids.. When I started playing somewhere in May this year I played in Open and then got killed 4 times in 5 attempts when trying to deliver 100 tonnes of Beryllium to Narri for a community goal in my harmless and defenseless Type 6 by 3 different players, the 5th time I combat logged and that person did send me an angry message.. They weren't interested in my cargo, but only wanted to destroy me, they immediately opened fire and with in a few seconds my ship was gone.. For me, at that moment, losing 100t of Beryllium 4 times was about double my entire credit balance.. This basically forced me to play in Solo, I bought the game to get involved in the war against the Thargoids and wanted to play in Open because the social aspects.. So within the first week I already new it was going to be a long grind to get to the point I want, especially in Open..

Because the game doesn't really punish players that enjoy killing lowlevel players in defenseless ships (not that I consider it to be ok against veteran players in well equiped ships) I'm not against combat logging..
If you're a Pirate and just after cargo that a player carries, I'm fine with that..

I would suggest to end combat logging by losing your ship if you do this.. But only when they also implement something to stop griefers or any other kill everything that moves -type of players..

Maybe it's an Idea that cargo is blown up too when you destroy a ship so there is no need to blow the ship up, and if you destroy a ship without any bounties on it (only when you initiate the attack yourself ofcourse) you have to pay for the rebuy of the ship and the lost cargo instead of the of the player that is being destroyed..
The only problem I see with this is that Pirates haven't got a lot of options if their target doesn't comply and tries to escape..

Maybe I'm wrong because I look at it with a PvE players perspective, who isn't interrested in the PvP part of the game..

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

For clarity's sake, this is, verbatim what it says in the link you provided:

"This is a quick update to let you guys know what we’re looking at regarding the issue of “combat logging”.

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

Commanders might use this exploit the moment they are interdicted or the moment before they are about to be destroyed.

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

Because we don’t have an all powerful server running the moment-to-moment game play simulation, there is no infallible arbiter to take control of a player’s ship when they ungracefully exit.

So what we’re doing is logging telemetry that will help us detect when this exploit is explicitly being used.

Right now, all we’re doing (and have already started doing) is looking at and implementing methods of collecting and analysing data.

At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. I'll just repeat: please avoid combat logging - we're taking this issue very seriously.

On a related, but separate track, we’re looking at introducing benefits to Commanders that persevere and stick it out through dangerous encounters, as well as general credit costs and rewards balancing.

I’m not quite ready to talk about these in more detail just now. Obviously though, they can never counter the potential costs of ship destruction, but we want to look at a range of disincentives and incentives both to counter this issue.

I hope this helps clarify our position a little."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Go through that word for word and show me expressly where he states that logging out via the menu in combat to, as he words it: "to avoid defeat, destruction and damage." DOES NOT COUNT.

Dont want to add insult to injury, but what's your feeling about them doing nothing about the issue for three years, and removing "combat logging" in the report canevas altogether.

XD

 

[Makaan]

Joining Open is not however granting a carte blanche consent to any and all PvP behaviours. FD created the Open environment obviously in the hope that people in general would not treat it like a PvP arena, what has transpired since release has shown that some PvPers fail to respect that hope/intent. The whole concept was doomed from the start, the moment you open the Pandora's box of allowing random PvP there will inevitably be some that push the boundaries of what people in general will tolerate.

My point is, is that PvP is an element of Open Play and you consent to it when you enter that mode. Does that excuse excessive griefing? Probably not, but the point still stands.

The problem with that stance is the Mobius groups already have hit the membership limits of Private Groups many times over and Solo does not grant the option of co-operative multi-player gameplay.

Ahh, this is something I didn't realise, forgot about the caps.

I don't necessarily disagree with this principle; However, I think the general idea will never be done because some in the community seem to fear that Open mode would be abandoned sufficiently to declare it dead. FD could theoretically crack down harder on certain PvP behaviour patterns but doing so in a fair and reasonable manner is littered with complications. The 3.0 C&P/C&C changes were a good start and did so in an even handed way. There are other things that could be done in addition to that but whatever they choose to do there will always be some that object to it regardless.

Yeah, I don't think it will happen either. But it would help. I feel that people who want player co-operation without any risk of PvP would move to it, so probably a lot of people from Private Groups and Solo Play, and those that want to avoid PvP in Open. However, there's still a lot of people that enjoy the added risk of Open Play and the PvP element it offers, so that mode would still be full of players.

I'd say the main issue is that there's no punishment for people who, for example, purposefully grief newer players in open over and over again. The Pilots Federation can permit lock systems and give you access to them, couldn't the same be done to excessive griefers as a punishment, by locking them out of systems, for a set period of time?

I agree that there are many options. I do feel a lot of these issues would not be issues today if we had a PvE mode alongside Open Play. It's a shame we'll never see it.