News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

@Ziljan
Yeah, I’m diggin that idea.
And from a game world perspective, one could imagine there existing two manufacturers producing the competing systems. Both operating in very different ways.
It gives the player real choice over which system they choose and why.
I would be astonished to see this actually happen, but, wouldn’t that be great.

Flimley
 
Why not apply that approach to other parts of the game then, hmmm? Normal FSD for people who want to travel the normal way, & insta-travel for those who want to get to Colonia in a more "convenient" manner. Or combat where some players can choose to fight normally, but give the option of an insta kill button.

Oh dear Marc. Oh dear me.
 
Oh dear Marc. Oh dear me.

Why "dear me"? Having the two exploration systems existing side-by-side makes no more or less sense than what I've suggested. Why should FDev maintain both systems at a cost to their own resources? I'm happy to retain certain "cut-down" aspects of the old system & merge it with the new one......but having them exist side-by-side makes zero sense.
 
@Ziljan
Yeah, I’m diggin that idea.
And from a game world perspective, one could imagine there existing two manufacturers producing the competing systems. Both operating in very different ways.
It gives the player real choice over which system they choose and why.
I would be astonished to see this actually happen, but, wouldn’t that be great.

Flimley

Yeah the more I think about it, the more it seems fair from an equity perspective. How many different weapon loadouts can combat pilots have? Yet Explorers only get a single option? I am the last person that would want to overburden Frontier with extra coding, but it does seem a bit unfair that Explorers don't have genuine options in their loadouts.
 
Yeah the more I think about it, the more it seems fair from an equity perspective. How many different weapon loadouts can combat pilots have? Yet Explorers only get a single option? I am the last person that would want to overburden Frontier with extra coding, but it does seem a bit unfair that Explorers don't have genuine options in their loadouts.


....but all those different load outs lead to the same outcome ;). For my part, I am happy to retain a range of Discovery Scanners-with the same ultimate functionality-but with each one able to do more, & quicker, than the one below it. So *if* we accept the "Darkened Sphere" approach-the Basic Scanner might only totally "light up" stellar bodies in a 10ls radius, & maybe show darkened Spheres out to 50ls. An Intermediate will be 50ls & 100ls respectively, & an advanced will be 100ls & 200ls respectively (though I still prefer my science module idea :p). Each different level of scanner would also give much more certainty, as to what the darkened spheres are, than the one below it. So your basic scanner may only ever be able to tell you what a stellar body is with 40% certainty, Intermediate will tell you with a 50% certainty, & Advanced up to 60% certainty (maybe 70%). Oh, & either advanced discovery scanners should come with a built in Probe Scanner, or we need a Discovery Scanner above advanced with that functionality......maybe perhaps one that can only be fitted to Explorer Class ships.
 
Why "dear me"? Having the two exploration systems existing side-by-side makes no more or less sense than what I've suggested. Why should FDev maintain both systems at a cost to their own resources? I'm happy to retain certain "cut-down" aspects of the old system & merge it with the new one......but having them exist side-by-side makes zero sense.

Yet you've so far been unable to articulate why they shouldn't exist side by side.

What you have done is use hyperbole and spent most of your time in this thread fighting straw-men.
 
  • Like (+1)
Reactions: EUS
Well Ziljan, there are what? Sixty odd different weapons currently in game? Plus endless engineering options and special effects. But only two types of scanners. One of which comes in three grades.... with basic and intermediate being completely redundant.
#MoreScannerChoice

Flimley
 
....but all those different load outs lead to the same outcome ;). For my part, I am happy to retain a range of Discovery Scanners-with the same ultimate functionality-but with each one able to do more, & quicker, than the one below it. So *if* we accept the "Darkened Sphere" approach-the Basic Scanner might only totally "light up" stellar bodies in a 10ls radius, & maybe show darkened Spheres out to 50ls. An Intermediate will be 50ls & 100ls respectively, & an advanced will be 100ls & 200ls respectively (though I still prefer my science module idea :p). Each different level of scanner would also give much more certainty, as to what the darkened spheres are, than the one below it. So your basic scanner may only ever be able to tell you what a stellar body is with 40% certainty, Intermediate will tell you with a 50% certainty, & Advanced up to 60% certainty (maybe 70%). Oh, & either advanced discovery scanners should come with a built in Probe Scanner, or we need a Discovery Scanner above advanced with that functionality......maybe perhaps one that can only be fitted to Explorer Class ships.

So you don't mind retaining the existing system but it has to have an ultra limited range?
 
Why "dear me"? Having the two exploration systems existing side-by-side makes no more or less sense than what I've suggested. Why should FDev maintain both systems at a cost to their own resources? I'm happy to retain certain "cut-down" aspects of the old system & merge it with the new one......but having them exist side-by-side makes zero sense.

It was the examples that you used for your comparison. I can accept you have a different opinion than I do about both the change and the various suggestions people have made around it, that's fine but immediately going to reductio ad absurdum doesn't really add anything. I mean sincerely, you're comparing the current ADS functionality with instantaneous transportation and a one button smart bomb for PVP?

Extend your comparison to include the current DSS; since it provides a level of additional functionality over and above the thing that's apparently like instant transport and kill buttons, what would that equate to? Transport that allows you to arrive where you want to be before you even set off (thereby creating a time paradox, wow look what you did now! :D) and a button that kills your PVP opponent yesterday?

You seem to be focused way too hard on the current ADS as some kind of exploration instant win button and it just isn't, it doesn't provide a level of functionality that even resembles the two things you suggested. It is a basic tool, nothing more. Something used as a precursor to the remainder of the process.

I've never argued against the fact that the 'remainder of the process' we're talking about there in the current game, detail scanning is as shallow as a puddle, we agree completely on that. That is the aspect of the game that I actually expected most of these mechanic improvements to focus on, only without any need to remove the current ADS functionality. I know you want depth in the game but there is nothing in principle that would have been incompatible about retaining the current ADS and providing a more in-depth, immersive and entertaining detail scanning process.

Well, apart from the fact they chose not to do it obviously. In view of that, running the two side by side as options does seem quite reasonable.

Edit: Only without the ridiculous restrictions suggested in your later post. Seriously that's the shark jumped. It's no longer about gameplay there, it's about punishing people for not playing the game in what you feel is the right way. If you have the new mechanic that you like so much, what difference does it make to you whether another player has the old system; you've just spent a week telling us all how wonderful the new system is and how it's going to be better. Isn't that enough?
 
Last edited:
Yet you've so far been unable to articulate why they shouldn't exist side by side.

What you have done is use hyperbole and spent most of your time in this thread fighting straw-men.

Well Ziljan, there are what? Sixty odd different weapons currently in game? Plus endless engineering options and special effects. But only two types of scanners. One of which comes in three grades.... with basic and intermediate being completely redundant.
#MoreScannerChoice

Flimley

....but all those different load outs lead to the same outcome ;). For my part, I am happy to retain a range of Discovery Scanners-with the same ultimate functionality-but with each one able to do more, & quicker, than the one below it. So *if* we accept the "Darkened Sphere" approach-the Basic Scanner might only totally "light up" stellar bodies in a 10ls radius, & maybe show darkened Spheres out to 50ls. An Intermediate will be 50ls & 100ls respectively, & an advanced will be 100ls & 200ls respectively (though I still prefer my science module idea :p). Each different level of scanner would also give much more certainty, as to what the darkened spheres are, than the one below it. So your basic scanner may only ever be able to tell you what a stellar body is with 40% certainty, Intermediate will tell you with a 50% certainty, & Advanced up to 60% certainty (maybe 70%). Oh, & either advanced discovery scanners should come with a built in Probe Scanner, or we need a Discovery Scanner above advanced with that functionality......maybe perhaps one that can only be fitted to Explorer Class ships.

I posted a thread in the Dangerous Discussions about how to have both sets in the game and avoid the issues.

Mark, having a limited range ADS reveal would be fine for people like us, but several people who want the ADS will settle for nothing less, and no combination of the two systems will let them be happy. That's fine imo, the two can exist very well side by side, since they each have significant advantages that kinda even out, but the key is that they just can't mix.
 
How is your view different from those arguing for stronger AI opponents to just fly a Sidewinder instead?

Or those who didn't want instant ship transfers to just not use it?

There are no direct consequences to other players as exploration is essentially non-competitive as previously explained.
 
They could have a dialog box pop up when 3.3 launches that asks them if they want to upgrade their ship.

Just thought of another issue, USS are now generated for the whole system and found by the new discovery scanner. But it's not really a change for people with the old scanners, since the old ADS/DSS can still use the same previous method of locating USS: random proximity encounters. Depending on how the USS are resolved (using filters, or just passively pointing), there doesn't necessarily have to be a difference between the way USS work between the two sets.

Doesn't *have* to be different modules. Could just be a toggle. If honk then new process disable. You're free to pick and choose system to system which way you want to go. Maybe it's toggled by the firegroup? Fire 1 honk the old way, fire 2 the new way. If 1 is used (or system map exists) 2 is disabled
 
Mark, having a limited range ADS reveal would be fine for people like us, but several people who want the ADS will settle for nothing less, and no combination of the two systems will let them be happy.

So, 'people like us', and by extension 'people like them'?

Sad really, and like Red Anders, despite being presumably 'one of them' I too don't watch Netflix while playing Elite. Presumably not hardcore enough... :D
 
Doesn't *have* to be different modules. Could just be a toggle. If honk then new process disable. You're free to pick and choose system to system which way you want to go. Maybe it's toggled by the firegroup? Fire 1 honk the old way, fire 2 the new way. If 1 is used (or system map exists) 2 is disabled

I thought about that but it either creates opportunities to exploit by getting infinite ADS and infinite range surface resolution, or it forces Frontier to code a "system map reset" if you switch scanner sets OLD=>NEW after the initial ADS honk. A reset could work, but then you should have to carry around all 4 scanners.
 
So you don't mind retaining the existing system but it has to have an ultra limited range?

Not precisely what I said. A honk would give a detailed scan of objects out to x light-seconds (in some ways making it another improvement on the existing system) & then give a low res scan (the darkened spheres we mentioned) out to (x*y) light-seconds. That low-res scan would even give you the probabilities that each stellar object is of a certain type (like, say, 55% chance ELW, 40% WW, 5% HMC), with the probabilities based on predicted size, position within the habitable zone of the primary star, emissions etc. Emission & gravity well info would be unlimited range, but would then obviously have to be "decoded" by the player. You could then use the low-res scan probabilities to determine which planets you most want to resolve/decode first.....though I am far more interested in planets I can currently land on than planets that earn me the highest amount of coin.

Edit: where the darkened spheres are concerned, I would probably even retain the ability to "hear" audio clues as to what those planets might be......as I still believe that is rewarding skill.
 
Last edited:
Eh, maybe let them have this one. It is true, it does have to be one set or the other set. But I don't see why we can't have both sets of scanners in the game, as long each set will only work with its paired scanner, eg New with New and Old with Old, but no mixing of Old ADS + New DSS (or New ADS + Old DSS), because the technologies are incompatible. Of course, both sets would still be able to launch probes.

I think I would actually be just fine with this because the new set has some rather serious advantages:

NEW SYSTEM:
1) infinite range
2) easier cherry picking
3) faster scanning with no travel times, and will allow for use of probes without necessarily increasing the time relative to the old system

OLD SYSTEM:
1) instant reveal of system map
2) you can still watch Netflix, binge drink/toke, be missing half a brain and still play it
3) will take FOREVER once you add probes to the old point+travel+wait mechanic, which gives you more time to watch Netflix per system


If die hard clingers of the old ways want to hold onto their old ADS and old DSS combo why not let them? They'll be moving along like happy little snails. As long as they're happy who cares how much faster we collect high value tags?

I would remove the probes from the old way. The old way is eyeballing and obviously they think that's better, let them have it.

I just can't believe what I read at times. It's utter crazy.
 
Back
Top Bottom