News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Ziljan]

There's no point to this proposal from FDev beyond creating a minigame and rewarding credits.

None of the data generated feeds back into the game or out to other players. Probes per hour or screenshots per hour will therefore be an inevitable discussion coming out of it.

You can see this a mile off.

The point is to create a sense of mystery and discovery and interacting more with objects we currently have in the game. I think people need to see it in action, before they judge it. Honestly, how can it possibly be worse than the current vacuous mini-game?

The data generated will feed back to other players engaged in deep space mining in 3.3, and more so in the future if we get colonization mechanics.

Usually I'm the cynical one, but I'm trying to hold out hope that just this once they will stick to their guns until the beta rolls out, and only THEN listen to community feedback. Tbh, the community has no business requesting modifications to a mechanic before they see it in action.

 

[Anjin]

Forgive me if this idea has come up already, this thread has grown quickly.

Compromise MkII

• add a new module, say a “Radio Telescope” or something, that works like the proposed changes to the Advanced Discovery Scanner.
• the existing Advanced Discovery Scanner stays in the game, and works exactly the same way it does now, nothing changes.
• the Detailed Surface Scanner gets a new mode: it can launch probes to map planets, but also works the same way it does now: you get up close to scan an object.

The compromise being that you have to use up another slot on your ship if you want all 3 scanner types, but you really only need either the “Radio Telescope” or Advanced Discovery Scanner.

This way you get to pick the load-out that matches your play style:

• how it’s always worked (but now with probes)
• the proposed new way
• an overlap of the two (with some redundant features across the modules)

The biggest losers with this suggestion would be explorers already out on their epic jaunts, as they’d have to get to outfitting before they could get the new module.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Lmao no. You have zero indication of the former, and you have to have skipped the entire thread to have missed the numerous entirely valid and cogent reasons why the new UI will cause problems.


They're already bundling the DSS functionality into the ADS. That doesn't seem to have been cause for complaints from anyone. Rather, the problem is that the honk is needlessly turned into pointless busywork, and the DSS scan is not particularly changing anything. The DSS part is being made faster, which some people seem to enjoy, but it does not actually fulfill those two points: it has no effect whatsoever on discovering thigns on bodies, and it offers no (and definitely not more) meaningful mechanics as far as discovery and exploration goes. It's just the same old stuff; some made slower, some made faster, only now it's being done in a disconnected -fiddling UI layer.

I don't remember anything remotely as silly as your suggestion being brought up before, so you can probably calm down there (although, now that you've introduced the idea, I'm sure the people who are advocating faster planet scanning will latch onto it).


Yes, that is indeed one of the problems with the suggestion in the OP. Hence why it's being critiqued: it does exactly two things — reduce player choice and agency and increase credit accumulation speed. Hardly a change worthy of being called an exploration update.

What you call busy work looks like gameplay to me.

Maybe when we fight we should get rid of the busywork of using weapons and just look at pretty explosions instead.

Busywork is just a name for gameplay that you don't want or interested in.

I suggest you look up what busywork means.

I haven't suggested anything to you. The DSS is not bundled into the ADS. The ADS won't exist from what I can see and neither will the old DSS.

 

[mossfoot]

The point is to create a sense of mystery and discovery and interacting more with objects we currently have in the game. I think people need to see it in action, before they judge it. Honestly, how can it possibly be worse than the current vacuous mini-game?

The data generated will feed back to other players engaged in deep space mining in 3.3, and more so in the future if we get colonization mechanics.

Usually I'm the cynical one, but I'm trying to hold out hope that just this once they will stick to their guns until the beta rolls out, and only THEN listen to community feedback. Tbh, the community has no business requesting modifications to a mechanic before they see it in action.

This. All this. Only I would add that it's not just to interact with what we have but to create a framework and inform what is added in the future.

 

[WR3ND]

This. All this. Only I would add that it's not just to interact with what we have but to create a framework and inform what is added in the future.

My preferred method of interacting is flying my ship around in space. I prefer that a bit more over messing around with extra maps.

Messing around with extra maps – especially for additional information – when I feel like it might be a nice additional option though...

 

[Tippis]

What you call busy work looks like gameplay to me.

In the same sense as adjusting aniso levels is gameplay… UI is UI. UI is not gameplay.

busywork | ˈbɪzɪwəːk |
noun [mass noun] chiefly North American
work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.

So… pretty much spot on for the new UI.

I haven't suggested anything to you.

Sure you did. You introduced the idea “that the ADS and the DSS gets bundled into one item so you can get "discovered by" on every single thing in the planet and all the in-depth surface details and all the POI's on every planet with a five second honk” — it's a very bold new suggestion, and it's all yours.

 

[Dbrn47]

Its funny because any time a new UI is added that disconnects a player from their immersion cockpit, people on this forum wet the bed.

So many games layer UI like this... I don't get it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

it's as if millions of pvp voices suddenly cried out in terror

Not really- think about it: large ships have large radars for no real reason, A grade sensors do what exactly to justify that weight?

You could have utility boosters that augment scanners in various ways, and hunters who are wanted by the cops could hide in plain sight, Das Boot style. It would add a gigantic chunk of rewarding depth to SC that currently is A to B. Traders might tune ships to be stealthy, or simply go for broke with an old bucket.

Small ships might be harder to spot, making newbies less obvious, and make smaller ships more useful.

 

[Dbrn47]

The point is to create a sense of mystery and discovery and interacting more with objects we currently have in the game. I think people need to see it in action, before they judge it. Honestly, how can it possibly be worse than the current vacuous mini-game?

The data generated will feed back to other players engaged in deep space mining in 3.3, and more so in the future if we get colonization mechanics.

Usually I'm the cynical one, but I'm trying to hold out hope that just this once they will stick to their guns until the beta rolls out, and only THEN listen to community feedback. Tbh, the community has no business requesting modifications to a mechanic before they see it in action.

Right? I don't understand the blatant disregard of benefits to come.

The fact that mining hotspots are going to be a thing that is scannable gets me back into mining (along with the other mining additions we seem to have forgotten about), the fact that I can more easily search for HGE or other USS makes Engineering more tolerable, the fact that I'm actually going to be involved in scanning for things gets me back into exploration, the fact that I won't have to eyeball POIs to go visit the things that are in and will be put in gets me into that aspect of exploration. If they expand on all of this even more, which they should, it can be a big win for folks wanting more engaging mechanics and tie ins to other parts of the game.

As you say, if we get our hands on it and it gets a resounding 'no thanks' from the community, then so be it. I think it'll be worth giving it a shot instead of just scrapping it, because at this point it'd be scrap it and revisit it next year or maybe never. I'd hope no one would want it to turn out that way.

 

[Dbrn47]

In the same sense as adjusting aniso levels is gameplay… UI is UI. UI is not gameplay.

busywork | ˈbɪzɪwəːk |
noun [mass noun] chiefly North American
work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.

Depending on who you ask, it's pretty much spot on for the entire game.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

In the same sense as adjusting aniso levels is gameplay… UI is UI. UI is not gameplay.

busywork | ˈbɪzɪwəːk |
noun [mass noun] chiefly North American
work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.

So… pretty much spot on for the new UI.


Sure you did. You introduced the idea “that the ADS and the DSS gets bundled into one item so you can get "discovered by" on every single thing in the planet and all the in-depth surface details and all the POI's on every planet with a five second honk” — it's a very bold new suggestion, and it's all yours.

What value do you get from playing games? It's about having fun and if those mechanics are fun that is all the value you need, as to gameplay value, yes they do add value depending on what it does. There is nothing fun and of value of a 5 second honk. That is the definition of busywork. Making it 5 seconds as opposed to instant would not add or remove any value to the current ADS. That is the definition of busywork. Not a mechanic that interacts with the gameworld which the new mechanics do.

There is nothing of the new mechanics that stinks of busywork, it's just something you don't like for reasons.

I didn't introduce That, that was what I thought they wanted. If it's not and the ing way to know if there is a POI on a planet is to supercruise there, well that's a turd fest of a game mechanic.

 

[WR3ND]

Right? I don't understand the blatant disregard of benefits to come.

...

Seems like a pretty bold assertion that a hybrid system would necessarily undermine all future exploration mechanics and content and that anyone is actually wanting it to.

 

[Dbrn47]

Seems like a pretty bold assertion that a hybrid system would necessarily undermined all future exploration mechanics and content and that anyone is actually wanting it to.

I'm referring to 'pointless mini-game' comments. No idea what you're talking about here.

 

[Tippis]

What value do you get from playing games? It's about having fun and if those mechanics are fun that is all the value you need, as to gameplay value, yes they do add value depending on what it does. There is nothing fun and of value of a 5 second honk.

There is about as much value in that as there is in aligning bright lights — the difference is that the 5-second honk only wastes 5 seconds before you can get into the part where the player choice and agency kicks in.

Making it 5 seconds as opposed to instant would not add or remove any value to the current ADS.

Exactly. But making it 5 seconds as opposed to instant would add to the “keep busy” part — i.e. it would just be more pointless busywork. It might not have been your intent, but you're accidentally making an argument in favor of removing the charge-up time on the ADS here…

There is nothing of the new mechanics that stinks of busywork

…aside from the exact thing you point out: it does not add any value; it just adds time. Thus, it stinks of busywork by very definition.

 

[WR3ND]

I'm referring to 'pointless mini-game' comments. No idea what you're talking about here.

Fair enough, then. I certainly don't want them to be pointless; I would just prefer them as being additional options to my preferred play style.

 

[Ziljan]

Did you read my post that you quoted? I wrote that I'm worried about losing interest from veteran explorers and new ones alike, with the latter being over time, due to losing the ability of seeing the system layout at a glance. Not body types, but their orbits, configurations.

If we assumed that your theory about how Frontier prioritises dev time is based on popularity is true (personally, I think there's some truth to it, but it's not the whole picture), then if the sudden spike in player interest will be followed by a drop to levels below what was before the change, that would be an even worse thing. If they'll make it take longer to find interesting systems, then that's what we'll get.

Many people are excited by the new mechanic. Is it possible it will get old? Possibly, but that is unlikely. Why? Because basic human physiology tells us that adding mystery to a system is a formula for dopamine release. We will likely be compelled to scan planets and even moons for the same reason we check our email inbox and social media umpteen times a day. Because our brains were designed to derive pleasure from mysteries.

This physiology is precisely why Exploration as a concept is immensely popular, however, the current mystery-free mechanic has absolutely failed to capture the hearts of the vast majority of players and veterans alike. Exploration had similar sustained levels of interest as Power Play, as evidenced by cobwebs in the Exploration Forum before the Q4 update details were announced. Power Play is widely considered a "dead" mechanic.

Quite frankly, there is nowhere left to go but up.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There is about as much value in that as there is in aligning bright lights — the difference is that the 5-second honk only wastes 5 seconds before you can get into the part where the player choice and agency kicks in.

So gameplay is just wasting time now. Maybe we should just teleport to stations instead of fly there as that is just wasting time.

Exactly. But making it 5 seconds as opposed to instant would add to the “keep busy” part — i.e. it would just be more pointless busywork. It might not have been your intent, but you're accidentally making an argument in favor of removing the charge-up time on the ADS here…

Ere no I'm not as there is no gameplay to the 5 second honk.

aside from the exact thing you point out: it does not add any value; it just adds time. Thus, it stinks of busywork by very definition.

No because it adds gameplay which maybe rewarding to use and could be fun to play.

So no it does not stink of busywork unless you call all.gameplay busywork, then we might as well uninstall all games as all games are just pointless busywork.

 

[WR3ND]

...

Quite frankly, there is nowhere left to go but up.

As you see it. Obviously a not insignificant number of other people commenting here from veterans and newbies alike don't have quite the same perspective.

I don't see it as a binary issue the way some here seem to.

 

[Cobra1984]

Possibly, but that is unlikely. Why? Because basic human physiology tells us that adding mystery to a system is a formula for dopamine release.

You have this wrong -

Basic psychology and neuroscience tells us that after being exposed to a previously unknown or mysterious thing for 5-15 times it becomes known and second nature.

There is no dopamine release either when exposed to the unknown, quite the opposite. A sense of elation comes after having resolved the unknown by pattern matching.

Unknown is handled by right brain. The known by left brain.

Further reading: The Master and his Emissary by Iain McGilchrist.

 

[Tippis]

So gameplay is just wasting time now.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but I'm not sure i agree.

Maybe we should just teleport to stations instead of fly there as that is just wasting time.

I don't think you'd have a lot of support for this idea.

no I'm not as there is no gameplay to the 5 second honk.

…which is why five seconds rather than zero means that there's more “keep busy” for the same non-existing value. The 5-second honk is more busy-work than a zero-second honk would be. Thus: what you're effectively saying here is that a zero-second honk would be better (well… assuming you want to remove busywork that is — if you want more of it, then obviously the 5s version is the better option and if I misread which way you lean on that issue then I apologise).

No because it adds gameplay which maybe rewarding to use and could be fun to play.

It's just a UI. The gameplay is almost exactly the same as before, only the surface scanning part will be supposedly be done away with much faster (which is why most people seem to be in favor of having that functionality folded into the discovery scan: less time spent… hmm… what was it that improved if it took less time, again?).

we might as well uninstall all games as all games are just pointless busywork.

Again, this is all your conclusion and/or opinion. I don't agree.