I played Elite Dangerous on Xbox for the first time in twenty days...

[LuxAeterna]

I never built a gaming PC from scratch. My ship of Theseus is 25 years old and did cost somewhere around a base Tesla Model 3, when summed up and adjusted for inflation, with most of the budget spent in the early years. Even if I decide to buy every console released since the NES at original retail price, it's barely making a dent into that PC budget.

Or in other words: Console hardware cost doesn't matter, they're virtually "free".


PC gaming is not investment, it's literally ing away money each year. And that's fine, as long as it was fun. But somewhere around introduction of Steam, Windows Vista and Games for Windows LIVE it turned into something ... else, I don't like very much. So I cut the budget. And you know what happens to a PC, when you do that.

These are all your opinions (and mine as well) which is your right to have but I'm not going to argue with you about trivial matters. I just wanted to say I like PC over consoles and why. If you don't like my answer then that's your choice as well. You don't like PCs, okay...

I'm moving on now.
o7

 

[Iron Golem]

I came up on a NES at age five. I stumbled into computer gaming at age 11 with Civilization, Doom and Warcraft. I have been a gamer my entire life, and during different times through the years I have gone back and forth. They both have merits, I prefer PC these days. I use to work in a warehouse and it wore me out in my twenty's. I would come home from work beat and would sink into the couch and play on the 360 when I just couldn't bring myself to sit at the computer. I haven't owned a console since 360 and have been PC only since then, but I can understand the appeal.

Sometimes computers are a nightmare, consoles just work (When they don't red ring!). In this day and age to keep up with computers as a casual user with no real knowledge and deal with the myriad of problems that can arise puts people off Id imagine. I think its cool you can just grab a console pop in some games and get going. I had a week about a year ago where my computer did some kind of update and my sound drivers, the device, everything just vanished. I couldn't get it to work, I trouble shot and hit google for a days, posted on forums, messing around (I knew XP pretty good but Windows 10 still feels fresh, I am more familiar with it now but it still feels awkward at times), and when your tired and just want to come home and relax and game, that is one of the most annoying things in the world. I almost bought a Xbox One. The part that infuriated me the most was I just randomly restarted and everything was working again with no real rhyme or reason. Having a variety of options depending on your life situation and technology experience level is only a good thing I think. I do consider console games to be somewhat more casual as a lot of the strategy and multiplayer games I came up on were on PC only so its where I prefer to be. Things are obviously different now though as consoles aren't just a video game exclusive device and you can now comfortably web browse and do the movie, music thing etc.

Aside: Un1k0rn I've been ghosting the forums randomly over the years and I enjoy your posts and your honesty.

 

[hunvagy]

Because office gear ist not a game controller. You have to design games around the limitations of these input devices meant for something else.


A modern game controller is not just 14 buttons, the SNES/PS1 age is two decades in the past.


QED. That thing is outdated since five years and doesn't represent the current state of art. Its design is 13 years old now. Nobody supports the 360 controller on consoles anymore, because it has a superior successor. You're proving my argument.

Side note: Microsoft started selling that controller for PCs to establish a baseline with Xinput. And failed. Controller support on PC is still a complete hit and miss. Because PC users barely own any. Even with your 360 you're already part of an elite. Most people never make it past $10 bargain bin controllers.


As a matter of fact, people use the cheapest crap as peripherals after all the budget has gone to the GPU. Back then they started released PC games on DVD instead of CD (that was in 2004 two years before Bluray), people complained they couldn't read them, while consoles accepted DVDs since 2000. The story repeated with GTA V for PC, which got a 7 DVD release for PC, while the first console adopted Bluray in 2006. Of course, nowadays PC games don't have any disc in the box anymore (downloading all content from app stores like mobile phones, with people complaining about download sizes now).

That's the thing with consoles: They offer game developers a nice baseline to rely on: A big HD capable screen with multi-channel sound, a certain APU with a certain amount of memory, a certain amount of storage (currently 50 GB), a modern high quality game controller with many features to design gameplay around. (Ever seen a PC game using an accelerometer ever? That's a video game standard now.)

The only thing they can assume on PC is some version of Windows with one of two barely compatible 3D driver stacks, a green one and a red one, for everything else you have to go with the lowest common denominator. Anything that has any additional requirements (even the five years old console baseline) sells like crap. (BTW: The most common amount of VRAM on Steam ist still just 1 GB.) That's why many devs don't even bother with porting games.

I'm looking at the current gen controllers, but I honestly don't see the more then 14 buttons you mention:

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/xbox-one-wireless-controller
http://www.ps4playstation4.com/PS4-Controllers

Or do you mean the gyro that's in the dual shock 4 and the built in touch pad? Because that's still not a 100+ keys you can configure as you see fit. And as many benefits these cutting edge controllers offer, the restrictions in my view also ruined a lot of established things in video games, at least in the genres I play. Weapon wheels in Doom? If there are so many options on that peripheral, then why not use that touch pad for quick weapon cycle? Why a wheel with slowmo time? I just don't understand some of the choices that are made at times.

As for the crap peripherals, I really can't imagine that if someone spends 1700 EUR+ on a gaming machine, that they can't budget in a proper mechanical keyboard and mouse for another 300 or so. On the subject of Blu-Ray and DVD, I wanted a Blu-Ray reader/writer for ages. Guess what, you can't even really get any. No idea why, but it irked me for quite a while. Must be that people decided my country does not need it I guess xD

And yes, consoles offer a good baseline, but their power does become the lowest common denominator. Unless I misread, the PS4 Pro has the same AMD GPU that I run in my machine, and it is enthusiast entry level (it's an RX580). And the big HD screen... you can output the GPU signal on a TV just the same if you desire. HDMI and DisplayPort are a thing. So if the console is the benchmark for power and prowess, then everyone will have to wait 4-5 years for every technological advance, because that's how much time it takes for a console generation to run its course.

We are now seeing the manufacturers trying to turn them into PC lite with upgraded versions, but still. And honestly, I owned a PS2 and I loved it. It had many advantages over my PC that I had, but I honestly don't see that anymore with consoles. You have to wait for day 1 patches, just like the PC, you have to install the game just like a PC, and it is full of bugs just like a PC. The only thing it has going for it is the price point and the instant gratification point of not having to care about the inner life of it.

As for PC configurations, I actually agree with you there, people have some very weird ideas. I'm really getting tired of the same question popping up in any new release thread, which is "will this run on my joke of an integrated graphics card?". The 1GB of VRAM is astonishing though, that hasn't been a thing for 5 years now I'd say.

I honestly didn't come into this discussion to argue for or against consoles vs PCs, because both have their target audience, and their purpose. But even on PC there's tech and tech. It's hard to compare a good console controller to Babby's first microsoft ps/2 compatible mouse and a 101 button rando keyboard vs. something like this combo for instance: https://www.roccat.org/en-HU/Products/Gaming-Keyboards/Skeltr/ and https://www.roccat.org/en-HU/Products/Gaming-Mice/Leadr/

Guess all I'm trying to say there are a few of us who are trying to do office equipment a bit more properly then a bargain bin two button mouse from Tesco

 

[Backer42]

Or do you mean the gyro that's in the dual shock 4 and the built in touch pad? Because that's still not a 100+ keys you can configure as you see fit. And as many benefits these cutting edge controllers offer, the restrictions in my view also ruined a lot of established things in video games, at least in the genres I play. Weapon wheels in Doom? If there are so many options on that peripheral, then why not use that touch pad for quick weapon cycle? Why a wheel with slowmo time? I just don't understand some of the choices that are made at times.

The Xbox controller doesn't feature touchpads, accelerometers or gyros. So for multiplatform titles like DOOM (2016) they are the lowest common denominator. Thank Microsoft.

As for the crap peripherals, I really can't imagine that if someone spends 1700 EUR+ on a gaming machine, that they can't budget in a proper mechanical keyboard and mouse for another 300 or so. On the subject of Blu-Ray and DVD, I wanted a Blu-Ray reader/writer for ages. Guess what, you can't even really get any. No idea why, but it irked me for quite a while. Must be that people decided my country does not need it I guess xD

People spending that amount of money on PCs are a niche within a niche. The countries with the largest PC gaming crowds have them, because they can't afford console games (nor pirate them) or game consoles were simply banned completely (like in China). As for optical drives in PCs: They fell out of use, because people were cheap and stuck with DVD drives until DVD itself became obsolete. Might have to do something with that copying Blurays never became a thing.

And yes, consoles offer a good baseline, but their power does become the lowest common denominator. Unless I misread, the PS4 Pro has the same AMD GPU that I run in my machine, and it is enthusiast entry level (it's an RX580). And the big HD screen... you can output the GPU signal on a TV just the same if you desire. HDMI and DisplayPort are a thing. So if the console is the benchmark for power and prowess, then everyone will have to wait 4-5 years for every technological advance, because that's how much time it takes for a console generation to run its course.

Gaming PCs are far worse on average. Steam measures 1-2 GB VRAM for the majority of their customers in 2018. The PS4 launched with 8 GB GDDR5 in 2013 and has a 80 million install base now. This is why game developers like to go there.

I think we can put this spec race to rest. Game developers can't develop the next Crysis for expensive high-end PCs because, almost nobody owns those.

We are now seeing the manufacturers trying to turn them into PC lite with upgraded versions, but still. And honestly, I owned a PS2 and I loved it. It had many advantages over my PC that I had, but I honestly don't see that anymore with consoles. You have to wait for day 1 patches, just like the PC, you have to install the game just like a PC, and it is full of bugs just like a PC. The only thing it has going for it is the price point and the instant gratification point of not having to care about the inner life of it.

I have a different PoV. Running games from a slow optical disc drives never was an advantage. The (needed) move to installing on hard drives is fully justified. While the disc is a convenient high-density physical distribution medium, it's not suitable as a (Flash-)ROM cartridge replacement.

As for release schedules and post-release updates: The habits of modern software development are not specific to a certain platform, but to a certain time and era. The mostly bug-fixed games once were on PC too. They were copied to floppies and later printed on discs and installed to HDD since day 1. OTOH I still have perfectly working 1.00 games on PS4 Bluray, which never saw a patch, because they didn't need one.

As for PC configurations, I actually agree with you there, people have some very weird ideas. I'm really getting tired of the same question popping up in any new release thread, which is "will this run on my joke of an integrated graphics card?". The 1GB of VRAM is astonishing though, that hasn't been a thing for 5 years now I'd say.

It's in the August 2018 Steam Hardware Survey.

I honestly didn't come into this discussion to argue for or against consoles vs PCs, because both have their target audience, and their purpose. But even on PC there's tech and tech. It's hard to compare a good console controller to Babby's first microsoft ps/2 compatible mouse and a 101 button rando keyboard vs. something like this combo for instance: https://www.roccat.org/en-HU/Products/Gaming-Keyboards/Skeltr/ and https://www.roccat.org/en-HU/Products/Gaming-Mice/Leadr/

Guess all I'm trying to say there are a few of us who are trying to do office equipment a bit more properly then a bargain bin two button mouse from Tesco

Though "gaming keyboard" is a bit of a oxymoron to me. And at that price level that hardware aims for a sub 0.1 percent install base.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

how dare you have a machine that is accessible to the masses, with a 'plug and play' style where you don't need to worry about GPU compatibility or having to have upgraded hardware every few years. let's go on a crusade and burn them all!

1º PCs are available for the masses & you don't need to be a hardcore PC master-race gamer to simply go to a Best Buy or online to buy a suitable computer.

2º I find the plug & play description inacurrate since many consoles nowadays need the creation & use of users, this was really aparent the last time I went to play with my friends on a Xbox One. In either case, decent computers boot up just as quickly as consoles that is if you don't just make them sleep.

3º There's no obligation to improve the software or hardware of your PC, that decision is yours & will depend on the games you want to play & how good you want to play them (resolution, settings & FPS), besides, it's not like consoles are immune to obsoletization either, a new generation tends to come each 3 years and retrocompatibility or postcompatibility is never assured.

4º You don't have to worry about the compatibility of anything in your PC if you buy it prebuilt or simply use a laptop.

... Or how about you calm the frick down and think about your position rather than having an (what I consider) uncontrolled rant about how crappy consoles are compared to PC master race. Consoles have a place.... just like cheaper less able phones have a place alongside more advanced phones.... or how a small car has a place alongside a big car.

1º Controllers are fine but I find mouse & keyboard to be superior as they have more keys to keybind, greater precision & you can quickly type on them, I also find controllers to be rather stiff.

2º IMO the selling point of consoles is local multiplayer support or in other words, it's the get-go form of modern entretainment if your friends come along. Outside such use, which is a legitimate reason to have one, I find no place for consoles in the gaming industry.

They are accessible, easy to use and convenient. Live with it.

Well, computers are those three as well...

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Just reminding you that I do think consoles have a well-deserved place.

This thread is about my personal journey through gaming, and I needed to voice why consoles just won't accommodate me any longer.

I am not saying consoles are terrible. I am saying that they do not offer the customisation that is on offer on the PC platform. I have also agreed in the bluntest of terms that consoles are better value for money, for the core experience of playing games.

 

[Backer42]

2º I find the plug & play description inacurrate

Well, I have Steam library with rouhgly 500 games. If I choose a random one to install and launch it, there is 50 % chance it won't work (out of the box).

I realized this when I was revisiting some stuff I played in the past and stuff collected from bundles, where I was just trying one game after another to get an impression what it was about. Getting just a few games to launch and run properly can fill an evening. Browsing through lets say 50-100 Steam games without taking days off is completely out of the question.

My console library is much smaller, but regardless of how old a game is and for which platform it was made, even when I picked them up in used condition, it still works like on day one. I just have to plug it into the correct console. In fact I got a few PS2 ports of older favorites my modern PC doesn't run properly anymore at one buck per disc.

1º Controllers are fine but I find mouse & keyboard to be superior as they have more keys to keybind, greater precision & you can quickly type on them, I also find controllers to be rather stiff.

I find a dedicated game controller to be superior to office equipment.

2º IMO the selling point of consoles is local multiplayer support

I don't own a single game which supports local multiplayer on PlayStation. In fact all my local MP games are on PC.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Well, I have Steam library with rouhgly 500 games. If I choose a random one to install and launch it, there is 50 % chance it won't work (out of the box).

I realized this when Ia was revisiting some stuff I played in the past and stuff collected from bundles, where I was just trying one game after another to get an impression what it was about. Getting just a few games to launch and run properly can fill an evening. Browsing through lets say 50-100 Steam games without taking days off is completely out of the question.

My console library is much smaller, but regardless of how old a game is and for which platform it was made, even when I picked them up in used condition, it still works like on day one. I just have to plug it into the correct console. In fact I got a few PS2 ports of older favorites my modern PC doesn't run properly anymore at one buck per disc.

None of the steam games I've bought don't work & you are the first person I've heard who claims such thing. Another thing to note is that you don't need to dowload a game every time you play it but if we consider the installation time after purchase then that'll heavily depend on your internet connection & the distance to your nearest disk provider but IMO you could just leave the download on the night & wake up with the game installed.

Another thing to note is that computers won't play every game that has existed though you can play many old titles via an emulator (and there's no console which can do so), it is more time consuming but that's better than buying a whole new console just to play the games.

The last remark is just wrong, there's no console that plays games from other plattforms except maybe some titles from a previous generation.

I find a dedicated game controller to be superior to office equipment.

I don't find the ability to type with your controller a down side & not all mouse & keyboards are "office equipments", this is rather notorious since many are marketed as gaming peripherals so they actually are dedicated, plus, you can play with many other peripherals like a joystick or a steering wheel. One last thing to note is that computers are compatible with some gamepads if that's your thing.

I don't own a single game which supports local multiplayer on PlayStation. In fact all my local MP games are on PC.

That still doesn't refute anything since that comes down to personal preferences, after all, setting up two keyboards at the same time is cumbersome.

 

[Backer42]

None of the steam games I've bought don't work & you are the first person I've heard who claims such thing.

Just wait another five to ten years, then try again.

Anyway the average Steam user doesn't have this problem, because they have less than ten games on their account, with most of them being F2P/P2W games which are constantly updated.

Another thing to note is that you don't need to dowload a game every time you play it but if we consider the installation time after purchase then that'll heavily depend on your internet connection & the distance to your nearest disk provider but IMO you could just leave the download on the night & wake up with the game installed.

I have 25 years of PC gaming in my bag, I know my way around. You don't need to explain to me how digital platforms work. I have every PC game I own downloaded and installed. That's about 3 TBs BTW.

Another thing to note is that computers won't play every game that has existed though you can play many old titles via an emulator

You can't play Windows games via emulator.

(and there's no console which can do so),

Wrong, Nintendo sells NES/SNES emulators for their consoles since years.

it is more time consuming but that's better than buying a whole new console just to play the games.

The last remark is just wrong, there's no console that plays games from other plattforms except maybe some titles from a previous generation.

You realize that I already own all the platforms I have games for?

BTW: The cost of new consoles dwarfs compared to the amount of money I spent on PCs during the last 25 years.

I don't find the ability to type with your controller a down side & not all mouse & keyboards are "office equipments", this is rather notorious since many are marketed as gaming peripherals so they actually are dedicated,

Yes, they equip office equipment with fancy RGB LEDs and attach the label "gaming", so they can ask ridiculously prices. There are even "gaming chairs" - laughable.

However these expensive "gaming" peripherals are a niche market. Most people don't own anything beyond a $10 keyboard and mouse.

plus, you can play with many other peripherals like a joystick or a steering wheel.

That's nothing special to PC. You connect peripherals like steering wheels to consoles as well and play games with them, which aren't even available on PC, like Gran Turismo for example.

However these peripherals are more niche than gamepads for PC. Game developers usually ignore them completely, because almost nobody owns these.

One last thing to note is that computers are compatible with some gamepads if that's your thing.

Just that half of PC games don't support gamepad controllers properly, even when they have console ports, which do. Steams tells you this, when you launch through Big Picture. I can actually play only a fraction of my PC library on my TV.

Next time you should read the whole thread including my previous posts, before replying, then you would know, that I own quality game controllers and use them regularly to play PC games.

That still doesn't refute anything since that comes down to personal preferences, after all, setting up two keyboards at the same time is cumbersome.

Local MP on PC works with two or more gamepad controllers, just as everywhere else. For what does one connect two keyboards to a PC?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Just wait another five to ten years, then try again.

Anyway the average Steam user doesn't have this problem, because they have less than ten games on their account, with most of them being F2P/P2W games which are constantly updated.

I still would like a proof of such phenomena, I certainly own games that are well past 5 years old that aren't F2P/P2W and work fine, Portal, Portal 2, Garry's Mod come to my mind.

I have 25 years of PC gaming in my bag, I know my way around. You don't need to explain to me how digital platforms work. I have every PC game I own downloaded and installed. That's about 3 TBs BTW.

Well then I don't see why you posted about a situation nobody would find themselves unless they got a new computer.

You can't play Windows games via emulator.

Can you give me examples? I was thinking more about old console games. One thing to note, consoles don't have that much versatility in terms of retrocompatibility & those who do tend to only be retrocompatible 1 generation back.

Wrong, Nintendo sells NES/SNES emulators for their consoles since years.

And apparently NES/SNES are all the games that have existed.

You realize that I already own all the platforms I have games for?

BTW: The cost of new consoles dwarfs compared to the amount of money I spent on PCs during the last 25 years.

Well those platforms didn't come for free, also, currently you can get all games that are released on the market except for the console exclusives which are easily outnumbered by the games which have no support on consoles. Also, that spenditure will depend on the quality of the hardware you buy, if you always bought high end or simply top notch CPUs & GPUs mixed with an obscene amount of RAM then it's not a surprise you spent more money on the PC.

Yes, they equip office equipment with fancy RGB LEDs and attach the label "gaming", so they can ask ridiculously prices. There are even "gaming chairs" - laughable.

However these expensive "gaming" peripherals are a niche market. Most people don't own anything beyond a $10 keyboard and mouse.

Haha, do you really think offices are filled with "Republic of Gamers" mouses with flashy RGB LEDs? No, they are marketed as gaming because they are designed for it, how? With higher DPI, RGB & higher response times. Offices indeed don't need more expensive equipment.

Either way, I already told you that having office equipment isn't a downside since you can both game & work with them, 2 in 1. It should be noted that gamepads aren't exactly cheap either so bare that in mind.

That's nothing special to PC. You connect peripherals like steering wheels to consoles as well and play games with them, which aren't even available on PC, like Gran Turismo for example.

However these peripherals are more niche than gamepads for PC. Game developers usually ignore them completely, because almost nobody owns these.

Even still, game consoles don't support as many peripherals.

Just that half of PC games don't support gamepad controllers properly, even when they have console ports, which do. Steams tells you this, when you launch through Big Picture. I can actually play only a fraction of my PC library on my TV.

I then conceed the point of gamepad compatibility, however, you can still play we KB & M on the couch, just with some small table for it.

Next time you should read the whole thread including my previous posts, before replying, then you would know, that I own quality game controllers and use them regularly to play PC games.

I don't see the relevance of this comment.

Local MP on PC works with two or more gamepad controllers, just as everywhere else. For what does one connect two keyboards to a PC?

Because most people & as you just said, games don't use gamepads, either because they just don't support them or because they weren't intended for it. On the other hand, most if not all games I know of PC don't have local multiplayer mode in contrast to my Wii console & my friends Xbox & PS4 which have a lot of local multiplayer games like CoD, Rabbits go Home, Super Mario, Smash Bros, etc.

 

[Backer42]

I then conceed the point of gamepad compatibility, however, you can still play we KB & M on the couch, just with some small table for it.

LOL, didn't know you were just trolling the whole time. I'm using game controllers on PC since 1993, when I started playing on PC. It was casual PC gamers, who only used the keyboard instead.

Anyway, Steam just published a blog about controller support https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1712946892833213377 They made huge progress in that department as they develop Steam into a platform instead of just a game downloader.

There provide nice fresh numbers. For example, the installed base of DualShock 4 controllers in Steam is just 12.2 million, the Xbox One controller is at about the same with installed base of 11.5 millions. The outdated 360 controller gained 27.2 millions since 2005.

These numbers are pretty low, if you compare them to the installed PS4 consoles (83 millions in 2017) with a guaranteed DS4 controller. All controllers registered on Steam together don't even reach half of that installed base. Compared to the total number of Steam accounts (125 millions in 2015), it's merely 25 % and this is a reason why PC developers don't bother to much with controller support.

The comments under that blog speak volumes. People unhappy that Steam offers them options and they actively despise controller support. That's PC gaming 2018.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

LOL, didn't know you were just trolling the whole time. I'm using game controllers on PC since 1993, when I started playing on PC. It was casual PC gamers, who only used the keyboard instead.

I tell you what, it's not allowed to troll in this forums so if you are confident in my intentions then report this or the other post & put your money on your mouth or just shut up.

Anyway, Steam just published a blog about controller support https://steamcommunity.com/games/593...46892833213377 They made huge progress in that department as they develop Steam into a platform instead of just a game downloader.

There provide nice fresh numbers. For example, the installed base of DualShock 4 controllers in Steam is just 12.2 million, the Xbox One controller is at about the same with installed base of 11.5 millions. The outdated 360 controller gained 27.2 millions since 2005.

These numbers are pretty low, if you compare them to the installed PS4 consoles (83 millions in 2017) with a guaranteed DS4 controller. All controllers registered on Steam together don't even reach half of that installed base. Compared to the total number of Steam accounts (125 millions in 2015), it's merely 25 % and this is a reason why PC developers don't bother to much with controller support.

The comments under that blog speak volumes. People unhappy that Steam offers them options and they actively despise controller support. That's PC gaming 2018.

Yo soy hispanoparlante, te agradezco por dispararte en el pie.

Anyways, the posted page actually proves my point very nicely, it says that "Desde el 2015, más de 30 millones de jugadores han registrado al menos un mando" or in english, "Since 2015, more than 30 million players have registered at least one gamepad". Please note it says since 2015, not since 2005 & the numbers come from all Steam, not DualShock4 which in fact is never even mentioned in your source.

I also want to point out that a graph in the source shows how quickly can gamepads grow in popularity in PC, in particular, the Switch Pro.

Spoiler

Anyways, the point of the whole source is that gamepad compatibility is on the rise & 25% of all steam players is a huge sector of the playerbase, for analogy purposes, if everybody in the world used Steam, 25% of the gamepad users would equal to more than the population of China.


As my last point I should ask, do console games have widespread compatibility with mouseKB, flight sticks, pedals, VR & more interestingly, with other gamepads that don't belong to the console you own?