News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Ziljan]

…and that is the entire problem: there is no other meaning than marble collection, as you call it, and as motivators go, it's an immensely narrow and precarious one.

I agree 100%. Life is meaningless. The game is meaningless. Nothing has any inherent meaning except what we give it Whew, now that we've gotten the malignant nihilism out of the way... I do agree, the game needs more backend meaning so that discoveries within a certain range of BGS systems are useful to the BGS beyond just generic honk credit. For instance, creating colonization expansion targets.

The ability to drop nav beacons containing your scan data should also be added for tagged systems so that people can quickly tell if a place has been visited before, and this beacons should be scannable by other players so as to be useful when following behind on a blazed trail.

Nothing in this UI update alters that motivator because exploration itself is not touched in any way.

Cool then you should be fine with keeping the new system since exploration is not touched in any way. Seriously though, I am a big fan of player agency. I have been arguing to increase agency for exploration since the beginning, and it is the guiding principle of any suggestions I make. So really we should logically be on the same side if things only boil down to player agency.
If you'll allow me to paraphrase you, it sounds like you think that you are having choices removed because of the lack of instant information, information that if you possessed it would essentially leave you with only one choice. But if you only have one option, then everything is decided for you, so where is the agency? It sounds like you are saying any lack of initial information means a reduction in choice. But is this really true? And in what ways are your choices actually reduced? Which decision are you no longer in possession?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

[snip word salad and the typical sophistry]

Which decision are you no longer in possession?

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the ability to come to a snap decision on whether or not to even bother with exploring a given star system.

 

[Tippis]

Cool then you should be fine with keeping the new system since exploration is not touched in any way. Seriously though, I am a big fan of player agency. I have been arguing to increase agency for exploration since the beginning, and it is the guiding principle of any suggestions I make. So really we should logically be on the same side if things only boil down to player agency.

Quite the opposite: since the new system does not touch exploration, it should not be implemented — after all, exploration isn't altered but everything else that relies on the same decision-making information is. That's one part of the OP that I find particularly galling: that they throw out this fancy notion of a holistic system that ties together exploration, mining, and mission running and then they proceed to ignore the two parts that are significantly affected and only discuss the part where it makes no mechanical difference.

If you'll allow me to paraphrase you, it sounds like you think that you are having choices removed because of the lack of instant information, information that if you possessed it would essentially leave you with only one choice. But if you only have one option, then everything is decided for you, so where is the agency? It sounds like you are saying any lack of initial information means a reduction in choice. But is this really true? And in what ways are your choices actually reduced? Which decision are you no longer in possession?

I can no longer choose whether or not to engage with the exploration UX/UI. I must play the minigame — it is a requirement before I'm able to decide whether or not I want to play the minigame. Right now, as much as we can argue of the gameplay value of the current state of surface scanning (and again, I would like to point out that no-one seems to mind it being rolled into the ADS and be the main point of the minigame), you can currently choose whether or not to engage in any of that.

There are tons of reason why you'd want not to: because it's just pink snowballs (and I'm after ze big bucks); because it has all been discovered before (and I'm after discovery credit); because I just don't care about the surface details but about the structure (I just want a nice double-ELW against a backdrop of an Ae/Be orbiting a B0-Neutron binary for my screenshot collection); because I don't care about the composition but about the relative positioning (it's just metallics and gas giants and I'm looking for weirdo forest moons with teddy bears on them); because I don't explore (I just want a ring to dive into); because I don't explore (I'm just looking for my mission signal); because I still don't explore (I just want to get to the other end and don't want to clip into gravity wells or engage in any lithobraking). Some of the non-exploration is covered by nav beacons, but that still means we have a reduction of choice: where before we had three options, there are now only two — minigame or wasting (potentially precious) time diving in and out of the beacon grid.

Moreover, even if I do want to explore and do want to play the minigame, not having that information robs you of the simple agency involved in being able to piece the two together and target exactly the kind of space oddity you're interested in. There is an opportunity to add more sleuthing to the process, but that opportunity is being taken away — again, you have no choice but to go through the motions of the minigame, and the minigame alone. Hell, even if I've long beforehand decided to scan every last patch of sand in the entire system and engage with every little bit of both minigames, agency is removed: it's not a matter of whether or not to use the minigames — that is a given — but of how to effectively structure the process. Looking at your nav panel to try to figure out a good spiral pattern to cover all bodies as you DSS them is… ehrm… let's call it lacking — most seem to be in agrement there — but you're still actually engaging in an optimisation process, choosing where to go and in what order. That part is removed completely with the infini-DSS [insert “good riddance” cheers here, as appropriate ]

It's not just a removal of agency in how you go about travelling through space — a matter that has consequences far outside of just the narrow interest of explorers — but a removal of potential agency in the rest of the proposed UI. And none of it is even remotely necessary to deliver the revamp they've presented here, much less for any vague promises of an actual exploration update.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the ability to come to a snap decision on whether or not to even bother with exploring a given star system.

I think this is a core of disagreement because I don't believe that should be a thing.

Anyway, leaving this discussion loop before is catches up with me

 

[Sylveria]

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the ability to come to a snap decision on whether or not to even bother with exploring a given star system.

This is exactly why many major discoveries have yet to be made, cures have yet to be found, and why there's still plenty of opportunity for others to do so. Because some simply don't think it's worth "the bother". Significant difference in approach, IMO.

 

[askavir]

Yes you are correct, it's just like the Columbus Laboratory parked in orbit around some random ELW:

Which would be indeed awesome... if I had signep up to play a satellite simulator.

 

[Tippis]

This is exactly why many major discoveries have yet to be made, cures have yet to be found, and why there's still plenty of opportunity for others to do so. Because some simply don't think it's worth "the bother". Significant difference in approach, IMO.

…and forcing them to bother would just slow down the process further because it would mean they would just not do it at all, and all discoveries would have to come from the far slower, less numerous people who don't need to be forced.

 

[Sylveria]

…and forcing them to bother would just slow down the process further because it would mean they would just not do it at all, and all discoveries would have to come from the far slower, less numerous people who don't need to be forced.

I'm not seeing anything being "forced" here.

There are still other modules that exist in game which perform the tasks adequately- just not with God-like infinite range. IIRC the Intermediate and Basic scanners still have yet to be mentioned by Frontier as being "removed" from the game. It's not like people can't use either of them to perform the exact same honk-n-scan they have been.

It shouldn't be "easy" or completely without difficulty whatsoever, IMO. And yes, that's MY opinion. YMMV

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

This is exactly why many major discoveries have yet to be made, cures have yet to be found, and why there's still plenty of opportunity for others to do so. Because some simply don't think it's worth "the bother". Significant difference in approach, IMO.

With all due respect, this is a nonsense argument pertaining to this video game, which is supposed to be entertainment.

Most of us adults have a job and we have a life and a family - well I for one have that anyway. I don't want to play an Elite video game as a second or third job.

In fact it's remarkable how much of the game I even managed to play and create my application on top of that. One of the reasons I was able to do both is because currently I can, in fact, make a snap decision on whether or not to bother exploring a brown dwarf star system with 8 non landable snowballs, or jump to the next system which might in fact be worth spending a couple of hours in.

I want to be entertained. I do not want to be pointlessly blindfolded and lose the ability of coming to a snap decision to "stay here" or "try somewhere else", because frankly, that is not entertaining nor is it entertainment. It is a downgrade in terms of gameplay and losing the main benefit of the current ADS, and thus will actively discourage me from even keeping the now non-entertaining video game on my hard disk.

 

[WR3ND]

I think this is a core of disagreement because I don't believe that should be a thing.

Anyway, leaving this discussion loop before is catches up with me

For me it comes down to practicality and gameplay. After four years many of us already know what sort of systems are within the realm of possibilities, looking for those comparatively unique or otherwise interesting systems as we go on about our ways traveling though the galaxy, moving from system to system to reach our destinations. Having some relatively easy understanding of what potential a system has to offer might very well entice us to spend more time investigating it, and across the vastness of the galaxy these potentials add up and give us compelling reasons as part of our long treks to stop and smell the roses. It takes many, many jumps of witnessing the potential of what a system has to offer us as we cross the galaxy.

I think that with the game and exploration being expanded upon that these opportunities should remain as compelling as they are now without being abstracted as just a limited gameplay potential. Rather, I would prefer that there were additional opportunities for enhanced potentials of what systems have to offer beyond what is currently available in the game.

 

[Faded Glory]

Thanks, and yes if you leave the distances off, or change the distance filter to some other characteristic like surface Temperature or Surface Brightness (~Radius² x Temperature⁴) then yes it's certainly possible to have a map reveal and still retain some mystery.

The range filter is fine if distances are removed from any low level info, and does allow players so inclined to try and map goldilocks zones. Of course, it doesn't help with multiple star systems, and I've certainly found plenty of interesting stuff around non primary stars in systems. I also don't think you can filter the energy distribution readout (that would be daft honestly - zero skill at all), players will use their recognition of signals to concentrate on what's interesting either in the whole system, potentially a very crowded readout, or more selectively by defining a range.

Ok, let me reverse that: how can you know if a planet was worth scanning before you scanned it? Answer: because you already scanned it.

Reversing it doesn't alter the fact that actually there's not much mystery or unusual things to find at the body level, if anything. So IMHO players will be deeply frustrated if nine times out of ten they scan what they hope will be an ELW or WW (not interesting, just relatively rare) only to find it's just another HMC body.

The current ADS scan cheapens the DSS into a mere formality. Sure it gives us more CR, name, a zoomable view, and a materials list, but that isn't really worth much to a well prepared explorer because the galaxy is too safe to require credits or materials, or to bask in a risk-free name tag. And the zoomable map is obviated by the requirement to get in so close that you might as well venture the last Ls to get a view far superior to the zoomable map. So currently the ADS is really just a DSS in disguise, and the DSS is just added busy work with no meaningful purpose.

Frontier realized this which is why they rolled the ADS and DSS into a single scanner mechanic the Discovery Scanner, and gave the DSS a new role of launching probes.

This I think comes to the heart of the matter. This is where FD are inserting the 'stuff to find', things on planets, not planets themselves. If you don't scan a body to new DSS level, you won't know whether there's anything interesting or mysterious to find, which is fine it's a choice, and if you do find something interesting, you will then have the opportunity to fly to the planet and map it with probes and discover whatever is there that caught your interest.

We are getting stuck at the initial honk level, which will never even hint at the mysteries that might be in a system, no matter how detailed it is. It is clear however, that for some of us, that initial snapshot of a system gives us one critical bit of information, information that isn't actually one thing, but potentially something different for each different player.

And that information is simple. Do I want to stay and explore this system in detail.

So long as an initial reveal doesn't give us on a plate what might be on any given bodies, which it doesn't, and doesn't give us information that can be used to pinpoint the actual location of a body which is really only distance, then the new scanning method remains intact. Players will need to use the new, interactive method to actually find whatever it is that caught their eye and made them want to stay. If they are searching for potential ELW, WW, green gas giants... If they know it's there, they will still have to find it, and scan it.

If they are searching for mysteries, then they will want to scan every land-able planet to see whether there are any unusual POi's or whatever it is they are looking for.

 

[Tippis]

I'm not seeing anything being "forced" here.

The point was that, just because some “don't bother” does not mean that discoveries are slower to come — quite the opposite. Removing the option not to bother is an inherently Bad Thing™.

And you are indeed being forced with the proposed system. That is, after all, the whole point of contention. Also, you have noted that more things are given godlike infinite range, right?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

For me it comes down to practicality and gameplay. After four years many of us already know what sort of systems are within the realm of possibilities, looking for those comparatively unique or otherwise interesting systems as we go on about our ways traveling though the galaxy, moving from system to system to reach our destinations. Having some relatively easy understanding of what potential a system has to offer might very well entice us to spend more time investigating it, and across the vastness of the galaxy these potentials add up and give us compelling reasons as part of our long treks to stop and smell the roses. It takes many, many jumps of witnessing the potential of what a system has to offer us as we cross the galaxy.

I think that with the game and exploration being expanded upon that these opportunities should remain as compelling as they are now without being abstracted as just a limited gameplay potential. Rather, I would prefer that there were additional opportunities for enhanced potentials of what systems have to offer beyond what is currently available in the game.

Yeah, well, I reject that realism and I see it as giving up because we can't imagine things in new regime. As I say I understand that pitch but it is basically dead end for exploration mechanics.

I am better off with complete unknown mechanics which at least promises some mystery not fast discovery we are used to do because we actually don't want to explore specific systems, we want those most interesting ones. I personally believe ED gameplay speed must be slowed down with such mechanics considerably for game to feel whole not arcade button masher sometimes it feels these days. And thus there's that fundamental difference between our POVs.

It seems FD have decided to go my way, so I am really not complaining here.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

With all due respect, this is a nonsense argument pertaining to this video game, which is supposed to be entertainment.

Most of us adults have a job and we have a life and a family - well I for one have that anyway. I don't want to play an Elite video game as a second or third job.

In fact it's remarkable how much of the game I even managed to play and create my application on top of that. One of the reasons I was able to do both is because currently I can, in fact, make a snap decision on whether or not to bother exploring a brown dwarf star system with 8 non landable snowballs, or jump to the next system which might in fact be worth spending a couple of hours in.

I want to be entertained. I do not want to be pointlessly blindfolded and lose the ability of coming to a snap decision to "stay here" or "try somewhere else", because frankly, that is not entertaining nor is it entertainment. It is a downgrade in terms of gameplay and losing the main benefit of the current ADS, and thus will actively discourage me from even keeping the now non-entertaining video game on my hard disk.

You rule out potential new entertainment replacing old ways?

 

[Sylveria]

With all due respect, this is a nonsense argument pertaining to this video game, which is supposed to be entertainment.

Most of us adults have a job and we have a life and a family - well I for one have that anyway. I don't want to play an Elite video game as a second or third job.

In fact it's remarkable how much of the game I even managed to play and create my application on top of that. One of the reasons I was able to do both is because currently I can, in fact, make a snap decision on whether or not to bother exploring a brown dwarf star system with 8 non landable snowballs, or jump to the next system which might in fact be worth spending a couple of hours in.

I want to be entertained. I do not want to be pointlessly blindfolded and lose the ability of coming to a snap decision to "stay here" or "try somewhere else", because frankly, that is not entertaining nor is it entertainment. It is a downgrade in terms of gameplay and losing the main benefit of the current ADS, and thus will actively discourage me from even keeping the now non-entertaining video game on my hard disk.

And with equal respect, I also work full time (and then some) and have responsibilities, etc. I sometimes have to actual schedule time to play, too. I'm not independently wealthy, retired, nor living in mom/dads basement. Yes, I too am also an adult.

And although I think it's a be premature to make such decisions regarding something that has yet to even be tested yet, you've a right to your own opinion, as well. If you don't think actually having to engage in an activity that makes something more meaningful is "entertaining" to you, then you don't. Other opinions may vary.

As I also mentioned, other modules (Basic and Intermediate Scanners) still serve the same purpose, just not with infinite range.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

With all due respect, this is a nonsense argument pertaining to this video game, which is supposed to be entertainment.

Most of us adults have a job and we have a life and a family - well I for one have that anyway. I don't want to play an Elite video game as a second or third job.

In fact it's remarkable how much of the game I even managed to play and create my application on top of that. One of the reasons I was able to do both is because currently I can, in fact, make a snap decision on whether or not to bother exploring a brown dwarf star system with 8 non landable snowballs, or jump to the next system which might in fact be worth spending a couple of hours in.

I want to be entertained. I do not want to be pointlessly blindfolded and lose the ability of coming to a snap decision to "stay here" or "try somewhere else", because frankly, that is not entertaining nor is it entertainment. It is a downgrade in terms of gameplay and losing the main benefit of the current ADS, and thus will actively discourage me from even keeping the now non-entertaining video game on my hard disk.

Why do you hate Brown Dwarfs & Ice Balls so much? They're all part of our Galaxy, all worthy of exploration. I must say, if the addition of some added mystery is enough for you to consider this game "non-entertaining" & "not worth having on your hard disk", then I genuinely have to ask why you're even playing it now? Because it sounds like you're not particularly invested in the game.

 

[Tippis]

I must say, if the addition of some added mystery is enough for you to consider this game "non-entertaining" & "not worth having on your hard disk", then I genuinely have to ask why you're even playing it now?

What mystery is being added? How is that mystery destroyed by the ability to make decisions?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

You rule out potential new entertainment replacing old ways?

I have repeatedly stated ( *sigh* ) that I have no problems with every other aspect of the reveal - it looks fantastic, in fact.

I have also repeatedly pointed out - as have many others in this thread - that a game of "slowly loosen the system map blindfold teehee!" is not going to turn out to be entertaining. It is, in fact, a needless time-wall, to get the same information which the current ADS provides. After one does this little uncover-the-blindfold minigame a few times, it is going to become very obvious that it's a pointless time-wall. I'm still pretty dumbfounded as to why you and others can't see just how obvious this is. It's like pointing out the emperor has no clothes, yet you still claim the clothes are there - that's what this argument feels like. :/

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I have repeatedly stated ( *sigh* ) that I have no problems with every other aspect of the reveal - it looks fantastic, in fact.

I have also repeatedly pointed out - as have many others in this thread - that a game of "slowly loosen the system map blindfold teehee!" is not going to turn out to be entertaining. It is, in fact, a needless time-wall, to get the same information which the current ADS provides. After one does this little uncover-the-blindfold minigame a few times, it is going to become very obvious that it's a pointless time-wall. I'm still pretty dumbfounded as to why you and others can't see just how obvious this is. It's like pointing out the emperor has no clothes, yet you still claim the clothes are there - that's what this argument feels like. :/

There is no blindfolding. What a silly thing to say. You will be given tools to discover stuff yourself. Like we have eyes to see or binoculars to see stuff far away or a microscope to see stuff that is microscopic.

It so not a pointless timewall as it is an interactive way to find stuff within the system.

The current ADS is just busywork. What does that 5 second honk do. Nothing. FDev might as well add the full map as soon as you jump in add all discovered by to everything in the system, because flying there is just a timewall. Lobbing probes around a planet is also a timewall. Supercruiseing is just a timewall.

As soon as you start calling gameplay a timewall, then the whole game can be called a time wall.

Might as well have you start up the game get given 1 billion cash and then a you win sign come up and roll end credits for you know we can't have any actual gameplay in the game as it's all a timewall.

 

[Scytale]

FDevs, just don't make this game even more tedious than it already is. And add content. CONTENT. Not new grindy and time consuming game mechanics.