News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Ziljan]

Notice that your 3 and 4 are added by the probe phase, and you're comparing this to the current situation. You could add 3 and 4 to the second scenario as well. Plus in the first scenario you are relying as much on the RNGesus.

Now I'm with you on the 'n point'. The 'n point' has got to go. I think most agree. Also the way you phrase is has something to do with it. The way I am advocating exploration to be:

1. honk and pray to RNGesus (this is a step that is the same in whatever process is decided upon)
2. get information on the planet types and system configuration (bolded is where we part ways) and perhaps an indicator of certain POIs, with low accuracy, meaning there will be many duds, but this might draw in explorers
3. resolve the signals, get confirmation on the indicators or find out the indicators were indeed duds
4. in case of confirmation, fly to planet, launch probes
5. interact with POIs

So our steps aren't that different. Only the bolded part is.

You're assuming a lot in that post.

First I am not even considering whether or how much of the system map is revealed. That's a whole other can of worms, and I thought by now you'd know I'm in favor of either a limited (numberless black sphere) map or revamp of filters function in order for them to stay relevant. So you're kind of relitigating settled points here (between the 2 of us anyway).

Second, I did take into account the probes when considering "updating" the old mechanic, otherwise the content opportunity ratio would have been 4:1 instead of 2:1 . Step 2 in the old system is already replaced by step 4.

 

[wstephenson]

What if you had a button to see the ship class, heat signature, location, and maybe even things like shield, hull, and system status or even pilot proficiency? Or would you prefer that those details going into combat were hidden behind a minutes-long bit of disconnected UI fiddling for every ship you'd potentially want to then scan further for cargo, bounty, and possibly even shoot at?

I mean, if we're going to make combat analogous to exploration and all…

The amount of information available about every other ships in supercruise within the 40 second travel time window is already very similar to ADS honk exploration. You can tell whether the pilot has his heated seat turned on from the other side of a system. Wouldn't it be sweet if ship emissions, visibility and scanning got a detail pass as part of the next big thing? Maybe that's what Mike Evans has been up to for the last couple of years.

You can just imagine the howls of dismay going up from people running trade CGs who had been used to eyeballing every blip on entry to the system for the signature of a player in a combat ship, being jumped by a couple of Cobras on final approach that had been running quiet 50Ls along the shipping lane, and likewise, Wanted criminals naively active scanning the entire system only to find that this summons flocks of authority vessels to their location.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You're assuming a lot in that post.

First I am not even considering whether or how much of the system map is revealed. That's a whole other can of worms, and I thought by now you'd know I'm in favor of either a limited (numberless black sphere) map or revamp of filters function in order for them to stay relevant. So you're kind of relitigating settled points here (between the 2 of us anyway).

Second, I did take into account the probes when considering "updating" the old mechanic, otherwise the content opportunity ratio would have been 4:1 instead of 2:1 . Step 2 in the old system is already replaced by step 4.

In that case I had you indeed confused with someone else. 'Pologies, I'm a scatterbrain.

Which bottomlines to: check out the acres of common ground for 2 explorers with quite different approaches to exploration. Surely that means we settled the debate. Frontier, make it so.

edit: By the way, I don't think 2 words in an entire post is "a lot"

 

[Marc_Hicks]

The amount of information available about every other ships in supercruise within the 40 second travel time window is already very similar to ADS honk exploration. You can tell whether the pilot has his heated seat turned on from the other side of a system. Wouldn't it be sweet if ship emissions, visibility and scanning got a detail pass as part of the next big thing? Maybe that's what Mike Evans has been up to for the last couple of years.

You can just imagine the howls of dismay going up from people running trade CGs who had been used to eyeballing every blip on entry to the system for the signature of a player in a combat ship, being jumped by a couple of Cobras on final approach that had been running quiet 50Ls along the shipping lane, and likewise, Wanted criminals naively active scanning the entire system only to find that this summons flocks of authority vessels to their location.

Yeah, I want that level of info about ships to be much more limited going forward too. There is too much that is passive in the game IMHO.

 

[Ziljan]

The amount of information available about every other ships in supercruise within the 40 second travel time window is already very similar to ADS honk exploration. You can tell whether the pilot has his heated seat turned on from the other side of a system. Wouldn't it be sweet if ship emissions, visibility and scanning got a detail pass as part of the next big thing? Maybe that's what Mike Evans has been up to for the last couple of years.

You can just imagine the howls of dismay going up from people running trade CGs who had been used to eyeballing every blip on entry to the system for the signature of a player in a combat ship, being jumped by a couple of Cobras on final approach that had been running quiet 50Ls along the shipping lane, and likewise, Wanted criminals naively active scanning the entire system only to find that this summons flocks of authority vessels to their location.

That's interesting that you think an SC stealth and subterfuge mechanic wouldn't be welcomed with open arms by combat pilots, traders, and smugglers alike. Please Frontier if you're listening, add this to the game! But maybe after you spend a year or two sprucing up the Exploration content

It's also interesting that you think the current ship scanning and heat mechanics are so simple. Hint: they're anything but simple. Many combat pilots who have played for 4 years still don't understand heat in the game. If exploration mechanics were as involved as even just the heat signature mechanic alone, then this thread wouldn't even exist. Or if it did, it would be 30 pages of "thumbs up" and "when can we try it?"

 

[mr.wolfie]

I couldn’t disagree anymore with your comments Cmdr...

You're entitled to your opinion, as equally as I am to mine.
My complaint is that this does not feel like a simulation of space exploration in the far future. It feels like a game.
Obviously some people are going to want "a game" - but as many others have pointed out, Elite - for them - is about using your imagination to make your own fun and getting IMMERSED in a realistic simulation. There is nothing realistic about backward steps, or technology that does not improve upon efficiency, convenience and ergonomics.

That is my opinion. Elite should be so much more than a series of mini-games.

 

[wstephenson]

That's interesting that you think an SC stealth and subterfuge mechanic wouldn't be welcomed with open arms by combat pilots, traders, and smugglers alike. Please Frontier if you're listening, add this to the game! But maybe after you spend a year or two sprucing up the Exploration content

It's also interesting that you think the current ship scanning and heat mechanics are so simple. Hint: they're anything but simple. Many combat pilots who have played for 4 years still don't understand heat in the game. If exploration mechanics were as involved as even just the heat signature mechanic alone, then this thread wouldn't even exist. Or if it did, it would be 30 pages of "thumbs up" and "when can we try it?"

At risk of going further OT, the above idea was scoped to SC visibility and scanning, not real-space.

I made the comparison because I think that the shock of the new can affect any part of the game. Just like in Exploration, if this mechanic were enhanced, some traders/bountyhunters/pirates would have a hard time adjusting ingrained play-styles to cope.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I completely agree with you.

Leave the honk as it is.
Use the new UI minigame instead of the dss
Use the probes to map and find POIs

I've eleborated on this somewhere deep down in this thread but this I my personal preference.

Because the UI mini-game just becomes busywork as it's pointless. The whole point of the UI Minigame is to find the bodies which you wouldn't need to do as the ADS would have already done that. It makes no sense to keep the ADS as it is and the have the new mini-game.

 

[Ziljan]

My complaint is that this does not feel like a simulation of space exploration in the far future. It feels like a game.
Obviously some people are going to want "a game" - but as many others have pointed out, Elite - for them - is about using your imagination to make your own fun and getting IMMERSED in a realistic simulation. There is nothing realistic about backward steps, or technology that does not improve upon efficiency, convenience and ergonomics.

Well if you're concerned about realism, then let me say as someone with a degree in astrophysics, the new system Frontier is creating does resemble both the steps and the processes that we can realistically use to discover things according to known physics. 1. Gravitational disturbances 2. filtering noise from signal 3. resolving EM signal sources 4. launching probes. The fact that it feels "gamey" to you means that Frontier has already succeeded in making something that is both realistic enough for an astronomer and still seems designed for entertainment value by a sim gamer.

As for whether or not it "improves" upon the old version? The old version was patently space magic... seeing color with gravity?? No. Photons and gravitons are completely different carrier particles. One propagates relative to the fabric of space time, and the other is the fabric of space time. It's not even close. The new mechanic is far away more realistic. It also looks to be more fun. That seems like a significant improvement to me.

 

[aRJay]

You're not a t̶r̶u̶e̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶s̶m̶a̶n̶ real explorer, if you don't fly out into the void, go uphill both ways, wear a blindfold, look for moving dots, and play a little game to slowly uncover the blindfold.

Only t̶r̶u̶e̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶s̶m̶e̶n̶ real explorers have a valid point of view here, so, how very dare you!

Well he is wearing half a blindfold so half of his point of view should count.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

That's interesting that you think an SC stealth and subterfuge mechanic wouldn't be welcomed with open arms by combat pilots, traders, and smugglers alike. Please Frontier if you're listening, add this to the game! But maybe after you spend a year or two sprucing up the Exploration content

It's also interesting that you think the current ship scanning and heat mechanics are so simple. Hint: they're anything but simple. Many combat pilots who have played for 4 years still don't understand heat in the game. If exploration mechanics were as involved as even just the heat signature mechanic alone, then this thread wouldn't even exist. Or if it did, it would be 30 pages of "thumbs up" and "when can we try it?"

Been saying for yonks now that SC needs to be made more interactive than mere interdiction. Passive scanning of ships should reveal almost no info at all, it should require players to use active scanning to learn more info about the ship. Manifest & KW Scanners also need to have at least limited SC functionality likewise, the scanned should have options for shaking off scans or evading scanning ships via stealth/jamming mechanics. Might help prevent me from falling asleep on long SC journeys .

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Because the UI mini-game just becomes busywork as it's pointless. The whole point of the UI Minigame is to find the bodies which you wouldn't need to do as the ADS would have already done that. It makes no sense to keep the ADS as it is and the have the new mini-game.

Cannot 100% agree with you Max. Having the DS reveal very limited amounts of info about stellar bodies, out to a certain range, would still leave plenty for the new mechanic to do. Though I would still also leave open the option for players to fly out towards stellar bodies & actively scan them......the new mechanic would still probably be much faster though, especially for longer range stellar bodies.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

At risk of going further OT, the above idea was scoped to SC visibility and scanning, not real-space.

I made the comparison because I think that the shock of the new can affect any part of the game. Just like in Exploration, if this mechanic were enhanced, some traders/bountyhunters/pirates would have a hard time adjusting ingrained play-styles to cope.

Quite, and I see what you're getting at. But I'm not objecting to the ADS/system map changes because they're ingrained, I'm simply trying to point out why "is this star system worth exploring or not?" should be a quick decision rather than "I have to spend time here in order to work out if it is worth spending time here", which, frankly, is absurd. And even then that's a gross simplification of a far more nuanced thing - which has been spelled out in numerous posts by various people in this thread and others.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Quite, and I see what you're getting at. But I'm not objecting to the ADS/system map changes because they're ingrained, I'm simply trying to point out why "is this star system worth exploring or not?" should be a quick decision rather than "I have to spend time here in order to work out if it is worth spending time here", which, frankly, is absurd. And even then that's a gross simplification of a far more nuanced thing - which has been spelled out in numerous posts by various people in this thread and others.

Funny, any system with a planet in it is worth exploring......at least it would be were it not for the long, boring supercruise currently involved. Yet I still grit my teeth & do it, regardless of what planets are out there.

Yet you want us to believe this isn't about credits.....hmm, why don't I believe you?

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Quite, and I see what you're getting at. But I'm not objecting to the ADS/system map changes because they're ingrained, I'm simply trying to point out why "is this star system worth exploring or not?" should be a quick decision rather than "I have to spend time here in order to work out if it is worth spending time here", which, frankly, is absurd. And even then that's a gross simplification of a far more nuanced thing - which has been spelled out in numerous posts by various people in this thread and others.

Oh no, spending an extra minute or two in a system is "absurd". Opinion noted, & rejected.

 

[wstephenson]

Quite, and I see what you're getting at. But I'm not objecting to the ADS/system map changes because they're ingrained, I'm simply trying to point out why "is this star system worth exploring or not?" should be a quick decision rather than "I have to spend time here in order to work out if it is worth spending time here", which, frankly, is absurd. And even then that's a gross simplification of a far more nuanced thing - which has been spelled out in numerous posts by various people in this thread and others.

I wasn't referring to you personally, it's a valid question. A while back in this thread, I suggested a hybrid approach which would reveal much of the big picture of the system instantly, while keeping the spectrum analysis and detailed scan work to distant/small details: Post NB Since writing that, I have mostly convinced myself that the spectrum analysis mode will be carried out as a ship-POV 'telescope' activity, not the 2d top down system view minigame I initially understood to be on the table.

 

[Ziljan]

Oh no, spending an extra minute or two in a system is "absurd". Opinion noted, & rejected.

It might take that long to begin with, but I suspect that by now most people can recognize a metallic meteorite signal at a glance. Likewise, I suspect that before too long people will be able to tell the difference between a signal containing just iceballs and a signal that could be hiding terraformables at a glance.

This means that jonking-style exploration isn't necessarily out of the picture for moderately experienced explorers. For veterans I would think the transition should be even faster because they'll have so much pattern recognition built in already.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Funny, any system with a planet in it is worth exploring......at least it would be were it not for the long, boring supercruise currently involved. Yet I still grit my teeth & do it, regardless of what planets are out there.

Yet you want us to believe this isn't about credits.....hmm, why don't I believe you?

Perhaps because you don't want to believe me. After all, ignoring the reasoning for my objections (in numerous previous posts by myself and others) and after stating what kind of exploration I enjoy, conveniently reduces the amount of effort it takes for neurons to sluggishly fire.

Oh no, spending an extra minute or two in a system is "absurd". Opinion noted, & rejected.

The amount of time it takes to decide whether or not a star system is worth exploring, will vary according to the amount of bodies in a star system. Even those with the most sluggish of neurons can figure that one out. But whatever.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It might take that long to begin with, but I suspect that by now most people can recognize a metallic meteorite signal at a glance. Likewise, I suspect that before too long people will be able to tell the difference between a signal containing just iceballs and a signal that could be hiding terraformables at a glance.

This means that jonking-style exploration isn't necessarily out of the picture for moderately experienced explorers. For veterans I would think the transition should be even faster because they'll have so much pattern recognition built in already.

Indeed. That's the irony.

Those who are exploring for the credit per hour value, will love this new system. Setting the distance at the Goldilocks zone will make picking out ELWs and terraformables a breeze. Then they are pinged in seconds each (Adam's words). Then it's on to next system.

No, if this was just about credits, Genar would have been overjoyed with the new system.

 

[who?]

I'll be very interested to see how the sensor view in action.

I'd love it if it were a "3D" view so we can look about with head-look (TrackIR/VR) and then use the controls to tweak the settings as we scan whatever we're looking at. If it's just a "2D" flattened view like the System Map that we scroll about on.. I'd be a lot less keen.

In either case though, it has the potential to make finding 'non-natural' stuff (generation ships, mysterious bases, wreckage etc.) much more interesting too, instead of relying solely on dumb luck or tip-offs.