News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[Tippis]

Yet you want us to believe this isn't about credits.....hmm, why don't I believe you?

…because if it were about credits, he'd be absolutely overjoyed about the massive increase in credit-earning speed this new UI represents. He isn't, because — as he has very clearly and obviously explained — that's no the goal. You would have to have completely skipped and/or ignored everything he has ever written to come to such a reductive and wrong-headed conclusion.

Because the UI mini-game just becomes busywork as it's pointless. The whole point of the UI Minigame is to find the bodies

False.
That is not the whole point of the UI minigame. That is, in fact, a very tiny portion of what the minigame does. Again, you're speaking out of some very confused idea of what the mini game might end up as, but which you have no way of knowing yet, and you're using that to argue against something that we do know and in direct opposition to what has been explicitly stated by FDev in the OP.

 

[Ziljan]

At risk of going further OT, the above idea was scoped to SC visibility and scanning, not real-space.

I made the comparison because I think that the shock of the new can affect any part of the game. Just like in Exploration, if this mechanic were enhanced, some traders/bountyhunters/pirates would have a hard time adjusting ingrained play-styles to cope.

I think it goes the other way tbh. If you read the replies in this thread to your post, that is just a taste of the positive reception such an enhancement would bring. Most of the people responding in this thread are explorer types, but if the Open players were reading, they'd be jumping all over your suggestion like happy puppies.

Also I like the compromise suggestion you posted. Very clever use of the ADS honk as a nested gravity wave traveling at SC speed. Kind of like a modulated EM signal I suppose. Assuming there are no divide by zero errors on that self interacting force, it could also explain how we have instant communication across the Galaxy.

One thing though, I think you meant 4pi steradians (not 360°), unless you meant for the honk to be planar?

 

[wstephenson]

I'll be very interested to see how the sensor view in action.

I'd love it if it were a "3D" view so we can look about with head-look (TrackIR/VR) and then use the controls to tweak the settings as we scan whatever we're looking at. If it's just a "2D" flattened view like the System Map that we scroll about on.. I'd be a lot less keen.

I would very much like to know the answer to this question. 3D is more natural and immersive, but you have the problem of how to show the entire system's energy spectrum and how to relate that to the current field of view; with a 2D view you can zoom out until it's all on the viewport. I assume that this is what the frequency tuning does - you move the stick until the tuning caret is on the frequencies of interest, then the directional indicators around the reticule indicate which way to move the reticule to find their sources.

EDIT: In real space, this relation between the viewport and the 360 degree view is performed by the scanner, giving a whole-system view of objects around the ship relative to the current heading. Maybe instead of the linear spectrum, inspired by what a spectrograph would see of a distant star system, we should place spectrum lines on the Good Old Elite Scanner as multicoloured L-bars?

If it is head-looky though, I should hope that this is relative to the ship's orientation - head-looking around a full 360 degrees, whether with 1:1 tracking (VR) or input mappings (EDTracker, TrackIR etc) is hard work.

 

[who?]

I would very much like to know the answer to this question. 3D is more natural and immersive, but you have the problem of how to show the entire system's energy spectrum and how to relate that to the current field of view; with a 2D view you can zoom out until it's all on the viewport. I assume that this is what the frequency tuning does - you move the stick until the tuning caret is on the frequencies of interest, then the directional indicators around the reticule indicate which way to move the reticule to find their sources.

If it is head-looky though, I should hope that this is relative to the ship's orientation - head-looking around a full 360 degrees, whether with 1:1 tracking (VR) or input mappings (EDTracker, TrackIR etc) is hard work.

True, and in a 3D view you'll have occluded bodies so you'd have to move about a bit (or have some clever mechanism to handle multiple bodies, one behind the other).

The main reason I prefer the 3D view, is that it would be (more) different in each system. A 2D sensor view I think is going to start feeling very samey going through the process repeatedly with (almost) the exact same visuals over and over.

 

[Funny]

Ater thinking about a bit more, it’s absolutely vital for there to be a way to easily know the distance of the planet to the star it orbits. This is currently the most useful thing the system map displays after the honk after a rough view of the planet so you can judge its type. Knowledge of the distance enables you to easily find the ‘goldilocks’ zone, the area in which earth likes and terraformable planets are most likely to be found. Without a quick view of that distance, I’m afraid hunting for those planets would be too tedious a task to want to do often.

 

[Cobra1984]

Agreed. It isn't going to be easy for FDev though.

I think they've made it very easy for themselves to be perfectly honest, and I'm looking forward to hearing about the rest of it.

 

[Ziljan]

Indeed. That's the irony.

Those who are exploring for the credit per hour value, will love this new system. Setting the distance at the Goldilocks zone will make picking out ELWs and terraformables a breeze. Then they are pinged in seconds each (Adam's words). Then it's on to next system.

No, if this was just about credits, Genar would have been overjoyed with the new system.

Apparently I'm being really abstruse today

I was referring to the ability to quickly tell the difference between the general taxonomy of systems, not necessarily their Credit value. Which seemed to be the point of contention. Trust me, after 4 years and nearly 260 pages of this thread, I definitely realize that people have imagined that there are umpteen different types of exploration. All from honk n point. It's a miracle really. And by miracle I mean a complex self delusion derived from the normal occurrence of mundane happenings.

My sincere hope is that after this update goes through, that one day there really will be umpteen different types of explorers, just like there are that many different types of combat pilot fighting styles. (Yes I know it's not Combat, sorry, the game doesn't leave me much room for drawing parallels to other deep mechanics)

 

[Cobra1984]

It might take that long to begin with, but I suspect that by now most people can recognize a metallic meteorite signal at a glance. Likewise, I suspect that before too long people will be able to tell the difference between a signal containing just iceballs and a signal that could be hiding terraformables at a glance.

This means that jonking-style exploration isn't necessarily out of the picture for moderately experienced explorers. For veterans I would think the transition should be even faster because they'll have so much pattern recognition built in already.

Right.

So it'll be redundant at worst and trivial at best. A minigame.

 

[Ziljan]

Right.

So it'll be redundant at worst and trivial at best. A minigame.

This is like saying that using your brain to calculate a simple problem is "redundant" because calculators exist.

The logical conclusion of your assertion is that playing video games is redundant because bots exist.

Reductio ad absurdum

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Apparently I'm being really abstruse today

I was referring to the ability to quickly tell the difference between the general taxonomy of systems, not necessarily their Credit value. Which seemed to be the point of contention. Trust me, after 4 years and nearly 260 pages of this thread, I definitely realize that people have imagined that there are umpteen different types of exploration. All from honk n point. It's a miracle really. And by miracle I mean a complex self delusion derived from the normal occurrence of mundane happenings.

My sincere hope is that after this update goes through, that one day there really will be umpteen different types of explorers, just like there are that many different types of combat pilot fighting styles. (Yes I know it's not Combat, sorry, the game doesn't leave me much room for drawing parallels to other deep mechanics)

No, you were being clear, I was just expanding on your point. It won't take long for us to determine the money making 'signals' from the cheap 'signals' so those who are in it for the cr/h factor will be happy with the new system.

But, if you insist ( ) I disagree that people have imagined that there are many different types of exploration. There are different types of exploration. Because of the lack of mechanics, we have had to put our own into the mix. This goes beyond honk and point. There are explorers who honk and cherry pick, there are explorers who scan whole systems, there are explorers looking for the smallest/biggest/heaviest/fastest something out there, there are explorers looking for screenshots and then there are those who I forgot. And I will point and laugh in an exaggerated fashion at those who call any of that not "real" exploring or self delusion. That sort of ivory tower bollox just deserves to be ridiculed.

That's what you get when you give players an almost empty sheet of paper. They start doodling on it.

(and no issues with the combat analogy, since it was used as illustration )

 

[Faded Glory]

Funny, any system with a planet in it is worth exploring......at least it would be were it not for the long, boring supercruise currently involved. Yet I still grit my teeth & do it, regardless of what planets are out there.

Yet you want us to believe this isn't about credits.....hmm, why don't I believe you?

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but for others, spending time detail scanning a mundane ball of rock or ice is not worth it. Not because it doesn't pay, it's a game, the credits are meaningless, but because there's no useful or interesting outcome for the game-play involved.

And it's nothing, nothing at all to do with credits, and if you don't believe that and simply cannot see how silly that comment is... Well, I have over 4.5 billion credits, more than I could ever need in the game. You really believe I care about credits?

But if I find something interesting to explore or examine up close, I don't grit my teeth, I simply head for it and scan it. Still, the new system will be better for both of us in that regard, as we won't have to fly to it at all, it'll be quicker, easier. It will also be more active, possibly more engaging (we'll have to see after the umpteenth time that you will do it on an exploration trip of any substance).

It doesn't alter the fact to me that I'd much prefer to be a little targeted and goal oriented in my game-play, and not just scan something because it's there. I'd like to scan something because it's interesting.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but for others, spending time detail scanning a mundane ball of rock or ice is not worth it. Not because it doesn't pay, it's a game, the credits are meaningless, but because there's no useful or interesting outcome for the game-play involved.

And it's nothing, nothing at all to do with credits, and if you don't believe that and simply cannot see how silly that comment is... Well, I have over 4.5 billion credits, more than I could ever need in the game. You really believe I care about credits?

But if I find something interesting to explore or examine up close, I don't grit my teeth, I simply head for it and scan it. Still, the new system will be better for both of us in that regard, as we won't have to fly to it at all, it'll be quicker, easier. It will also be more active, possibly more engaging (we'll have to see after the umpteenth time that you will do it on an exploration trip of any substance).

It doesn't alter the fact to me that I'd much prefer to be a little targeted and goal oriented in my game-play, and not just scan something because it's there. I'd like to scan something because it's interesting.

Am I the only person who actually enjoys scooting around a system in SC?

 

[Kellan Fell]

Is this new UI a fullscreen mode (like the Galaxy Map), or an overlay (like the Station Menu) ?

And more importantly will it work in VR, unlike the Galaxy Map...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Am I the only person who actually enjoys scooting around a system in SC?

Nope. Especially orbiting planets and clusters.

Which is why the POI implementation is so important. If they're the type of: done and seen that, pass, then all exploration will be done from the vicinity of the main star. If they're fun to investigate, we still have incentives to fly around in systems

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Nope. Especially orbiting planets and clusters.

Which is why the POI implementation is so important. If they're the type of: done and seen that, pass, then all exploration will be done from the vicinity of the main star. If they're fun to investigate, we still have incentives to fly around in systems

Exactly.
If POIs are just 'more of the same' then pretty soon they'll be treated like USSs are now - generally ignored unless you're looking for something specific.

For me, personally, this is why losing the instaHonk is only half the problem with the changes. Having no reason the fly around the system is as bad, or possibly worse.

 

[Ziljan]

No, you were being clear, I was just expanding on your point. It won't take long for us to determine the money making 'signals' from the cheap 'signals' so those who are in it for the cr/h factor will be happy with the news system.

But, if you insist ( ) I disagree that people have imagined that there are many different types of exploration. There are different types of exploration. Because of the lack of mechanics, we have had to put our own into the mix. This goes beyond honk and point. There are explorers who honk and cherry pick, there are explorers who scan whole systems, there are explorers looking for the smallest/biggest/heaviest/fastest something out there, there are explorers looking for screenshots and then there are those who I forgot. And I extend my arm, clench my fist, point a finger, hold my belly with the other hand and laugh in an exaggerated fashion at those who call any of that not "real" exploring or self delusion. That sort of ivory tower bollox just deserves to be ridiculed.

That's what you get when you give players an almost empty sheet of paper. They start doodling on it.

(and no issues with the combat analogy, since it was used as illustration )

I'm definitely not communicating well today. What I mean to say here is that there aren't enough mechanics in the game right now to justify the existence of an Exploration rank. Sincerely, I think Frontier should let us optionally request an Exploration rank reset just for the new update, so we can experience it fully. Or maybe I'll just get an alt account to play it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Christ Z. I'm bored! Need argument!

Oh wait. It's 5 o clock. Nevermind

 

[EDanaII]

I think you'll find that 'real explorers' use the ADS and complain about it

Seriously for a moment... no, that is how "real explorers" do it. Not us Virtual Nerdonaughts exploring a virtual simulation of the virtual frontier, but real Earth-bound astronomers searching for the newest asteroid, planet or star. ... and I expect they complain about it too.

 

[Jenner]

No, you were being clear, I was just expanding on your point. It won't take long for us to determine the money making 'signals' from the cheap 'signals' so those who are in it for the cr/h factor will be happy with the new system.

But, if you insist ( ) I disagree that people have imagined that there are many different types of exploration. There are different types of exploration. Because of the lack of mechanics, we have had to put our own into the mix. This goes beyond honk and point. There are explorers who honk and cherry pick, there are explorers who scan whole systems, there are explorers looking for the smallest/biggest/heaviest/fastest something out there, there are explorers looking for screenshots and then there are those who I forgot. And I will point and laugh in an exaggerated fashion at those who call any of that not "real" exploring or self delusion. That sort of ivory tower bollox just deserves to be ridiculed.

That's what you get when you give players an almost empty sheet of paper. They start doodling on it.

(and no issues with the combat analogy, since it was used as illustration )

I certainly agree that it's foolish to condemn anyone for not being a 'true' explorer now. I do think that FD *need* to really expand the exploration system as it is bare-bones and (I'd argue) definitely not in a good state.

FD want to take part of that blank sheet of paper people are currently doodling on and make us a cool little toy to play with. I'm down with that.

 

[mossfoot]

I'm definitely not communicating well today. What I mean to say here is that there aren't enough mechanics in the game right now to justify the existence of an Exploration rank. Sincerely, I think Frontier should let us optionally request an Exploration rank reset just for the new update, so we can experience it fully. Or maybe I'll just get an alt account to play it.

Honestly I wish they would take the CQC concept of "prestige" (I think they called it?) Where you maxed out your level and then reset in order to get a credit bonus for your match.

They should let people who hit Elite (or Triple Elite) reset their ranks without clearing their save, in exchange for something like a unique skin (some perk that has no game impact).