I'm sure they must raise the payouts on some mission types periodically to balance the economy as well, but it would be nice to see one of these updates from Paul to that effect. I think "We found X mission payout to be too small and in order to keep the economy we've raise the rewards for this." would be very well received.
News Collect Wing Mission Balancing
- Thread starter Paul_Crowther
- Start date
Hi Paul,
Boy do they go for your jugular vein so fast. However it is justified to some extent. Frontier always nerf high paying missions as fast as greased lightening BUT massacre missions that offer 12M CR for 64 faction pirate kills THEN when you travel to said system and search USS and NAV points for targets and find them ok BUT nothing to say they are mission targets and while they are the correct wanted vessels when killed they don't add to the count. So abandon mission and Rep goes from fully ALLIED to FRIENDLY in one fell swoop. Un adjectival modifying word believable. Fix this instead of wielding the sodding nerf bat all the time and upsetting your customer base so badly. How out of touch are you all?
Boy do they go for your jugular vein so fast. However it is justified to some extent. Frontier always nerf high paying missions as fast as greased lightening BUT massacre missions that offer 12M CR for 64 faction pirate kills THEN when you travel to said system and search USS and NAV points for targets and find them ok BUT nothing to say they are mission targets and while they are the correct wanted vessels when killed they don't add to the count. So abandon mission and Rep goes from fully ALLIED to FRIENDLY in one fell swoop. Un adjectival modifying word believable. Fix this instead of wielding the sodding nerf bat all the time and upsetting your customer base so badly. How out of touch are you all?
Well done guys - your complains about over-paid missions have resulted in a re-balance that gives source & return missions a NET LOSS.
Mission reward> 1.041.963
Commodities Cost> 1.770 x 966 (1,709,820)
NET LOSS for x1> -667,857
Source and return missions are higher than straight delivery missions because you have to pay for the commodities at your expense.
I know that you're like "hey in comparison to these well paying missions these other missions aren't paying as high" - in an attempt to make frontier increase the cost of the lower paying missions. But they never do all that happens is they reduce the well paying missions down to the same crappy standard as everything else.
When missions are overpriced SHUT UP and milk them for every penny - stop giving fdev incentive to nerf mission rewards; they will never buff the missions you think are low, they'll always nerf the missions that are higher; every time.
Mission reward> 1.041.963
Commodities Cost> 1.770 x 966 (1,709,820)
NET LOSS for x1> -667,857
Source and return missions are higher than straight delivery missions because you have to pay for the commodities at your expense.
I know that you're like "hey in comparison to these well paying missions these other missions aren't paying as high" - in an attempt to make frontier increase the cost of the lower paying missions. But they never do all that happens is they reduce the well paying missions down to the same crappy standard as everything else.
When missions are overpriced SHUT UP and milk them for every penny - stop giving fdev incentive to nerf mission rewards; they will never buff the missions you think are low, they'll always nerf the missions that are higher; every time.
Result:
Well done guys - your complains about over-paid missions have resulted in a re-balance that gives source & return missions a NET LOSS.
Mission reward> 1.041.963
Commodities Cost> 1.770 x 966 (1,709,820)
NET LOSS for x1> -667,857
Source and return missions are higher than straight delivery missions because you have to pay for the commodities at your expense.
I know that you're like "hey in comparison to these well paying missions these other missions aren't paying as high" - in an attempt to make frontier increase the cost of the lower paying missions. But they never do all that happens is they reduce the well paying missions down to the same crappy standard as everything else.
When missions are overpriced SHUT UP and milk them for every penny - stop giving fdev incentive to nerf mission rewards; they will never buff the missions you think are low, they'll always nerf the missions that are higher; every time.
Just can't rep this enough!
Source and Return missions is what has been nerfed, and these missions are actually quite challenging because often you need to find a LARGE amount of (sometimes illegal) commodities, pay for them, and deliver them.
But this: NET LOSS of -667,857 Cr for doing a mission? I know people defend these kind of missions saying "but you are not forced to do them", but I wonder why did Frontier even bother to introduce these missions? Wouldn't have that time better be spend on other things?
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I've responded with the following in another thread, linked to this one by Alecz.
So if we're spitballing here it may be that Rare materials, which Thermic Alloys are, could be worth 150k credits each coming out to 450k with the rest being covered by the 5+ rep, whatever that actually means and however that actually converts per rep reward tick. Keep in mind it's spitball math, Frontier would have to tell you exact valuation.
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How about blaming Frontier for botching it over and over and OVER again instead of blaming players for rightfully and correctly noticing that something is wrong?
How dare anyone complain when something is broken - don't they know that Frontier is completely incapable of fixing anything and therefore bringing a problem to their attention essentially guarantees to make it worse?!
Remember, players: its YOUR fault for noticing something is wrong.
I didn't read any of this, it makes my eyes bleed just glancing at it. Punctuate, dude
It is funny. Take the test, get out of the station with 1000 credits on a sidewinder and make 1 billion to pay for a corvette.
You have no idea what you're doing.
this is just becoming so sad...I am trying to help a friend get into the game, but it becomes so painful to try and stay positive about all aspects of this game...
credits? grind for peanuts and don't you dare "exploit" a gold rush!
powerplay/modules? Grind and wait a month for it, just because!
Guardian weapons/fighters? endless hours of grinding and zombie-like repetition...
Most people that play this game actually dont have more than 2 hours a day to dedicate to it - which means that pretty much all the better content is locked behind insurmountable grind-fests...I cant even be bothered with unlocking most of the guardian stuff or even the tech broker's...why bother? cant be engineered AND for the Guardian stuff, you need to unlock EACH CLASS separately! what is wrong with you?
in all honesty, the only thing that brings me back to Elite is the VR aspect of it - the rest is just...superfluous? I couldn't even remotely care about it anymore....
Once X4 comes, I see dark times for this game - FDEV just don't get it and never will...it's the attitude that is totally wrong...and I think they just dont care anymore - they know people don't really have an alternative for now and they will milk this for as long as they can and then just close it off once it's not profitable anymore...
:::end of Salt:::
credits? grind for peanuts and don't you dare "exploit" a gold rush!
powerplay/modules? Grind and wait a month for it, just because!
Guardian weapons/fighters? endless hours of grinding and zombie-like repetition...
Most people that play this game actually dont have more than 2 hours a day to dedicate to it - which means that pretty much all the better content is locked behind insurmountable grind-fests...I cant even be bothered with unlocking most of the guardian stuff or even the tech broker's...why bother? cant be engineered AND for the Guardian stuff, you need to unlock EACH CLASS separately! what is wrong with you?
in all honesty, the only thing that brings me back to Elite is the VR aspect of it - the rest is just...superfluous? I couldn't even remotely care about it anymore....
Once X4 comes, I see dark times for this game - FDEV just don't get it and never will...it's the attitude that is totally wrong...and I think they just dont care anymore - they know people don't really have an alternative for now and they will milk this for as long as they can and then just close it off once it's not profitable anymore...
:::end of Salt:::
On one side you have people that complained that after a couple hundred hours they unlocked EVERYTHING and have EVERYTHING and there is nothing more to do (i.e. unlock), and on the other side, you have people complaining how tedious and endless grindy it is to unlock EVERYTHING.
You also say that "all the better content is locked behind insurmountable grind-fests", but then you say that it's not even worth doing because it cannot be engineered?
Imagine the SALT due to the grind of unlocking Guardian/Broker stuff, AND engineering it!
On the other hand, because this game is open-world it is designed to keep you busy for hundreds of hours, not what you typically do in a traditional AAA game which takes 10-30 hours to complete the story. So I think that you and your friend are doing it wrong, you all think of how much fun you will have once you have your G5 fully engineered Cutters and Corvettes with all the juicy Guardian modules.
But think about this: once you have those, what will you do? Come back to the forums to complain there is nothing left to do in the game after 1000 hours and having unlocked and engineered the top ships, and that there is no challenge in PvE?
The way I unlocked the Guardian stuff for example, is that I planned en expedition outside the bubble, and tried to see how many Guardian Structures I could find. This did not feel grindy, and maybe I did each site twice, but it was the journey. They mats were in addition to visiting the structures.
I did have to use external resources to get ancient keys, but getting the three required keys takes about 10 minutes.
Then again, this game is not for everyone...
Well, here is the problem: There is no real content: Grab a text wall from the mission board, ferry bio waste to another place. Get interdicted for "all that tasty cargo" (please have it, enjoy), and the same thing will happen most missions. "All that tasty cargo". Dude, it's bio waste!
And why would/SHOULD one need external sources to do something in game? A game shouldn't rely on that!
The 3 ship keys - shoot structure, collect relic, log off, log in, repeat. If that's not grinding, then tell me what is! Same with the weapon and module blueprints.
Let's take another AAA game, Fallout 3, New Vegas or Fallout 4. I spent hundreds of hours on those games, and I never felt the need to log off, log back in, just to respawn something. Missions are varied, NPC A will not tell me to fetch 50t of Bio waste "in the name of democracy". No, I will get asked to go and see B, who might want a favor in return by doing something else.
The quests/missions are not repetitive, and I don't need 3 helper apps and 2 websites to get me through the game.
I love this game, I really do, but I do get salty just like the rest when I see that stuff that has been promised has not been delivered. This game has so much potential, yet it gets squandered behind grind walls or "We don't want to waste your time" 45 minutes of staring at a screen, watching dots woosh by as I am making my way to some distant star. What happened to a microjump?
While I agree with what you say, and I also think that the game is still in a somewhat unfinished state, it has little to do with the Topic of the thread: "Collect Wind Mission Balancing".
I mean even if Wing missions payed better it would not address any of the points you raise in the slightest.
I hope FD did something with the new Codex and I wish it would remove the need for some of the external resources, but oh well... It's good there's more than one gaming company around
The problem is the way wing missions are paid:
Mission pays say 20m.
1 commander does it - gets 20m
2 commanders do it - both get 20m, regardless of their contribution.
3 commanders do it - all 3 get 20m, even if 2 just done 1t of contribution while the 3rd was doing all the work.
and so on.
That concept is just wrong in so many ways. Wing mission should pay more than a regular counterpart to begin with.
Single mission: Pays 2m to haul 500t of stuff from A to b.
Wing mission: Pays 10m to haul 2000t of stuff from A to b.
If I want to solo that wing mission, I get 10m, right?
If I get wing mates, they also get 10m. The mission giver in this case "generates" extra 10m to hand out, instead of splitting the 10m between the 2 commanders. That's how things normally would/should work.
Ergo wing missions should get a massive buff of x4 and then split between the contributing commanders. If you solo it, lots of cash for you. If you wing it, you get a share instead.
And yes, there are other gaming companies out there... Egosoft for example..
I reckon they should add a system that divides the split. the mission payout you see is based on the assumption that you WILL do it as a team of 4. to do any less is robbery.
The ideal system is to divide this stated figure up by the amount of people doing the mission, by giving the leftover figure split again where few members are present. basically it means that no matter how many people participate, THE EXACT SAME amount of money total will be given. for example, payout is 10M for killing 200 vessels in CZ, each player receives 10M as team of 4, 13.33M as team of 3, 20M as team of 2 and 40M for Solo.
System fixed... and also just added incentive to do wing missions solo at the same time. I am a genius aren't I??
Stopped reading when you started demanding microjumps. Which means I read to the end. Well played.
Let’s talk about wing mission and general balancing of risk and reward.
Today in the TIR system on the mission board was a wing mining mission to mine 6000+ tons of water for 1.4m and a wing mission to mine 268 tons of Samarium for 7.5m, or solo you could take 120tons of biowaste one jump for 1.4m or 180t for 1.7m. Or you could take 180tons of progenitor cells one jump for 5.5m ...where is the balance in these .
I also failed a mission on timing, I know it happens and I expect consequences, but the faction sent 9 deadly condas after my , which were all dealt with in the appropriate manner...Their children will go hungry tonight Every time I entered supercruise I was interdicted and when the station was only 20+ls from the Star it makes it really interesting, but frustrating too as I would expect a deadly npc anaconda pilot to make my palms sweat a little, but my cutter melted 4 in a row without even taxing my shields. Npc skills need a notch up imho..However generally I really like this mechanic, there should be consequences, but 9 deadly condas is pure urine extraction .
Whilst I’m on a rant...Instead of moaning about a grind, do what is asked and let the devs know what’s going on in your region, in your station and in your game...no one can say earning credits is hard, if you’re determined and have the stamina it’s not a grind if you accept it as it is and just play your own way. Whining about grind, cash cows or the lack of them tells me that some players want everything just handed to them on a plate, that’s not the elite way it’s not been my way either.
FDev if you read this, please rebalance missions to reflect risk over reward, not just on how long someone has to be in supercruise to go 500k ls to earn 2m . Whilst at it, please rebalance the rep rewards exploration rep for passenger missions is just wrong. The whole rep status has been devalued when trade and exploration rank was buffed to appease the instant gratification players.
The game has lost something when a new player can be admiral and afford a cutter or corvette within a week #justsaying ..yes please rebalance and kill the cash cows
Today in the TIR system on the mission board was a wing mining mission to mine 6000+ tons of water for 1.4m and a wing mission to mine 268 tons of Samarium for 7.5m, or solo you could take 120tons of biowaste one jump for 1.4m or 180t for 1.7m. Or you could take 180tons of progenitor cells one jump for 5.5m ...where is the balance in these .
I also failed a mission on timing, I know it happens and I expect consequences, but the faction sent 9 deadly condas after my , which were all dealt with in the appropriate manner...Their children will go hungry tonight
Every time I entered supercruise I was interdicted and when the station was only 20+ls from the Star it makes it really interesting, but frustrating too as I would expect a deadly npc anaconda pilot to make my palms sweat a little, but my cutter melted 4 in a row without even taxing my shields. Npc skills need a notch up imho..However generally I really like this mechanic, there should be consequences, but 9 deadly condas is pure urine extraction .Whilst I’m on a rant...Instead of moaning about a grind, do what is asked and let the devs know what’s going on in your region, in your station and in your game...no one can say earning credits is hard, if you’re determined and have the stamina it’s not a grind if you accept it as it is and just play your own way. Whining about grind, cash cows or the lack of them tells me that some players want everything just handed to them on a plate, that’s not the elite way it’s not been my way either.
FDev if you read this, please rebalance missions to reflect risk over reward, not just on how long someone has to be in supercruise to go 500k ls to earn 2m . Whilst at it, please rebalance the rep rewards exploration rep for passenger missions is just wrong. The whole rep status has been devalued when trade and exploration rank was buffed to appease the instant gratification players.
The game has lost something when a new player can be admiral and afford a cutter or corvette within a week #justsaying ..yes please rebalance and kill the cash cows
They are already all dead and are being flogged with dead horses.
You already pointed it out, like many others including me - risk is not compensated properly. I love a good assassination mission. I can even solo a wing one. But why does a solo pay more than a wing mission, especially if the wing is 3-4 times more challenging and dangerous? There should be some compensation for that.
I reckon they should add a system that divides the split. the mission payout you see is based on the assumption that you WILL do it as a team of 4. to do any less is robbery.
The ideal system is to divide this stated figure up by the amount of people doing the mission, by giving the leftover figure split again where few members are present. basically it means that no matter how many people participate, THE EXACT SAME amount of money total will be given. for example, payout is 10M for killing 200 vessels in CZ, each player receives 10M as team of 4, 13.33M as team of 3, 20M as team of 2 and 40M for Solo.
System fixed... and also just added incentive to do wing missions solo at the same time. I am a genius aren't I??
Despite this being how people normally expect missions to work, FD does not think this is appropriate. This thread is 15 pages and we still did not convince them. Beating dead horses here we are.
I reckon they should add a system that divides the split. the mission payout you see is based on the assumption that you WILL do it as a team of 4. to do any less is robbery.
The ideal system is to divide this stated figure up by the amount of people doing the mission, by giving the leftover figure split again where few members are present. basically it means that no matter how many people participate, THE EXACT SAME amount of money total will be given. for example, payout is 10M for killing 200 vessels in CZ, each player receives 10M as team of 4, 13.33M as team of 3, 20M as team of 2 and 40M for Solo.
System fixed... and also just added incentive to do wing missions solo at the same time. I am a genius aren't I??
This so many times again.
@Frontier: You can't fix a broken system by changing parameters. You need to change the system itself.
Why can't you see that?
I know it's a game, but reality works for a reason. That includes basic economics.