∞ probes?

[Genar-Hofoen]

At that amount, you might as well not put a limit on it, because it's basically become an artificial amount, it's not tied to anything. Maybe it makes sense to actually see how much we use probes first? There's potential to make what would otherwise be a fairly fluid improvement, a negative gate because the system has finite reserves and they have to be topped up.

Still don't get why some folks can't accept a bit of handwaving about the DSS passively collecting the trace gas and dust to make the probes. Whatever. I guess some folks just want to make ever more levels of in-game grind? Deeper and deeper the rabbit holes go for them.

I guess they want to forget ED is a game. Maybe they don't enjoy a game unless it's a second or third or fourth job? Maybe games aren't meant to be enjoyable?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

My view is fairly simple
FD seem to go to 1 of 2 extremes.... Either unlimited, like the honk, or likewear and tear (once it gets to a point your ship has unlimited durability) or the go full on the other way like engineering at launch or the guardian tech on launch...
But either way, once you do the blue print dance and you engineer your stuff that is it from then on the only cost of anything is credits and they are so trivial now it's laughable

However having stuff like materials for probes (albeit not a huge number of them) it gives *something* which actually drains in normal gameplay. Infinite offers no gameplay options . Now maybe you do not like collecting mats , maybe you hate going into asteroid belts or using the srv. That would be unfortunate but they ARE part of the game. Imo asking probes to be unlimited because you do not like synthesis is no more or no less valid that saying you want instant Cmdr transfer because you don't like travel in the game ....
But all the above is by the by .... Ridiculing those who preferred what was initially announced at essentially telling those folk to STHU is really not cricket.

Yes beta is for balancing and the proposed 200 limit may well have needed tweaking but there is no tweaking infinite

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I've seen it but that's a side effect of the main issue. The horizons limitation is more challenging for FD because it's also "political" decision, not technical only.

The quantity balancing could have been adjusted during the beta... that's what beta is for.

You can make your own theories as you want Devs do their own testing and Adam explicitly said that reason for that they can't figure out upper limit.

They could easily make mats minable from asteroids. But if system requires thousand of probes and you have to work several hours for that...understandably FD didn't want to go there.

Certainly there are parts of the game wildly accepted with much harder handwaveium than this one.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Still don't get why some folks can't accept a bit of handwaving about the DSS passively collecting the trace gas and dust to make the probes. Whatever. I guess some folks just want to make ever more levels of in-game grind? Deeper and deeper the rabbit holes go for them.

I guess they want to forget ED is a game. Maybe they don't enjoy a game unless it's a second or third or fourth job? Maybe games aren't meant to be enjoyable?

You are taking to the other extreme tho. Surely there is a happy medium?. Personally I would happily dial back on Some of the other collection parts of the game
.... Not wanting infinite is NOT the same as wanting to have to collect a bucket of mats for every 2 or 3 sysyems you fully scan.... BUT having an incentive to scan "well" to preserve your probes IS gameplay. Do it well and maybe you only need to synthesis every few hrs of scanning and if it's only a few units of mats that is no problem... But do it rubbish then you burn through them

How is that not gameplay?

 

[FNLWA]

The only way I see that could work is if the fuel scoop somehow magically refilled the probes, otherwise non-horizon players will be locked out of core-gameplay content.

In any case, infinite probes is totally fine with me. It's not like there aren't enough things in the game already that do nothing but make your life harder. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Also I dislike the efficiency target mechanic? Credits for efficiency? Paid by whom, and for what actual reason? What, do they supply the probes? Am I not buying them? What am I, the probe custodian? The probe shepherd through the valley of space darkness?

But really, they're just setting up a system where people will occasionally fail to reach the target and end up feeling bad about it.

I agree, I don't see the point for this efficiency target too...

Still don't get why some folks can't accept a bit of handwaving about the DSS passively collecting the trace gas and dust to make the probes.

It's a place holder. Q4 exploration contents were meant to get rid of these not to introduce new ones.

Moreover the probes was supposed to be a skill-based mini game.
There's no skill in randomly bombing a planet with 100 probes because they are infinite...

 

[kofeyh]

I think probes could have still been synthesizable but cheap, and it would have been preferable to infinite. 1 Iron = 200 probes is something probably anyone could deal with, and it would have added a little more impact to their use, and more payoff for "getting good".

With respect; after a few dozen uses, there will be no more getting good. Good will have been gotten. So you're still rewarding improvement with a negative gate that requires tokens. We have enough things that require stopping for tokens, adding more doesn't suddenly make it any better.

Other people have already said this, but I think the probes should use a little fuel with each one you launch. Maybe the materials themselves are handwaved as trivial, but hey we're launching an object within its own little Frame-Shift envelope so maybe it deploys the ship's drive capacities in some way.

So we're escalating materials use, and including fuel use. Collector limpets do not draw fuel?

Here's the other thing: the whole "efficiency" concept for mapping planets is neat, but doesn't make any sense in a world where probes are infinite. If they are a limitless non-resource then there's no such thing as efficiency. That's clearly an idea that is left over from Frontier's original vision for the idea before youtubers complained, and it doesn't really fit anymore.

Maybe just say "i don't like infinite" and just dispense with all the if-then-else supposition.

I'd like to see something other than infinite probes because it would make the whole activity more consequential if it were connected to other parts of the game.

In what way? After a few hundred uses, how is requiring materials suddenly making anything more consequential? It'll just encourage exactly the same thing that's also been whinged about; people honk-scoop-jumping because if you gate probe use considerably, then folks simply will not use them. That's the outcome. You make them a chore, and thus irrelevant.

We already have a number of micro-management materials. Ship Fuel. SRV Fuel. Ship repair. SRV Repair. All of these require sourcing as it is. Adding yet another one, does not improve the skill or reward, any more than the prior do.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The only way I see that could work is if the fuel scoop somehow magically refilled the probes, otherwise non-horizon players will be locked out of core-gameplay content.

1) base game can mine asteroids
2) there could be usses added with them.
3) now Mac is dropped imo it's only a.matter of time before horizons IS the base game

 

[Lestat]

At that amount, you might as well not put a limit on it, because it's basically become an artificial amount, it's not tied to anything. Maybe it makes sense to actually see how much we use probes first? There's potential to make what would otherwise be a fairly fluid improvement, a negative gate because the system has finite reserves and they have to be topped up.

I did pick a large amount. I am just going by the size of the moon they show us. And assumed Larger planets might require more probes and I based the one they show us as an average size of a moon. Which would give a player 4,000 planets has scanned. The amount I give could be lowered.

Thing is I don't want it so people get annoyed with the game. I want it fair for both sides. But I also want ammo refill to be a factor. So we are not stuck in the deep.

 

[kofeyh]

You are taking to the other extreme tho. Surely there is a happy medium?. Personally I would happily dial back on Some of the other collection parts of the game
.... Not wanting infinite is NOT the same as wanting to have to collect a bucket of mats for every 2 or 3 sysyems you fully scan.... BUT having an incentive to scan "well" to preserve your probes IS gameplay. Do it well and maybe you only need to synthesis every few hrs of scanning and if it's only a few units of mats that is no problem... But do it rubbish then you burn through them

How is that not gameplay?

I bet if Frontier suggested say 200 probes, that were replenished from scooping from a star (so it wasn't unlimited, but was also not a chore) as a compromise, people would then complain about that and argue even more semantics. Where do you draw the line? At what point is it valid concern, or just having a whinge.

Essentially; if there is a limit requiring a material, all 1.x players are automatically locked out. Make it star-stuff? People will whine "but realism" and we are back to square one. Maybe how many probes we can regenerate, is not quite as important as quite literally the entire rest of the update. Just a thought. It's supposed to be an enjoyable experience, not a prison sentence, Mike?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

You are taking to the other extreme tho. Surely there is a happy medium?. Personally I would happily dial back on Some of the other collection parts of the game
.... Not wanting infinite is NOT the same as wanting to have to collect a bucket of mats for every 2 or 3 sysyems you fully scan.... BUT having an incentive to scan "well" to preserve your probes IS gameplay. Do it well and maybe you only need to synthesis every few hrs of scanning and if it's only a few units of mats that is no problem... But do it rubbish then you burn through them

How is that not gameplay?

There is an efficiency reward though - there's already an incentive. How about a bit of self-discipline as an incentive too? Y'know - "I can scan this thing with the minimum amount of probes"?

Once again - DSS passively collects the mats needed from the gas and dust of outer space. Also just remove the ∞ sign from the UI altogether and job's a good'un.

 

[kofeyh]

I did pick a large amount.

This stops all 1.x players. Anything that isn't star-stuff (ie via fuel scoop) means 1.x players are 100% stuffed. Frontier could say:

- the fuel scoop now collects exotic particles that are used by the system to generate probes, and this means they are replenished via scooping
- probes are automatically refreshed at any station or outpost

Done. People have their limit; it doesn't actually prevent anyone at all from just playing the game and enjoying the update? But I suppose star-stuff is just too damn easy, right?

 

[M00ka]

I bet if Frontier suggested say 200 probes, that were replenished from scooping from a star (so it wasn't unlimited, but was also not a chore) as a compromise, people would then complain about that and argue even more semantics. Where do you draw the line? At what point is it valid concern, or just having a whinge.

Essentially; if there is a limit requiring a material, all 1.x players are automatically locked out. Make it star-stuff? People will whine "but realism" and we are back to square one. Maybe how many probes we can regenerate, is not quite as important as quite literally the entire rest of the update. Just a thought. It's supposed to be an enjoyable experience, not a prison sentence, Mike?

If FD suggested any finite number, whether it be 200 or 200,000, the people that complained about having to find mats for the probes when the system was first explained would be the ones complaining instead of the ones that don't like/can't accept infinite probes. Whichever way FD went on this, sure as little green apples some segment of the community were going to get their knickers in a twist.

 

[kofeyh]

There is an efficiency reward though - there's already an incentive.

Bingo; so why does having limited probes change that? It doesn't; this is like saying we have to ration how much fuel we get from the scoop, so there's more incentive to be more efficient with FSD use. Are you trying to improve the experience, or just punish people for it?

Because I am reading a desire for just a whole lot of people to be endlessly punished, for having the temerity of going exploring and is that really constructive, at all?

--

Crack on with what you have, Frontier; I look forward to it. As is.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I still like my initial idea of probes simply working their way back to ship. I am not fan of probes and drones being limited ammo anyway.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

We have enough things that require stopping for tokens, adding more doesn't suddenly make it any better.

No, there's none, that's the point.

You never need to land on a planet during exploration. There's no in-game reason for doing this.
There are explorers in the black since months that don't even have a SRV onboard.

You mentioned to refuel SRV... When you don't need to use the SRV you don't need to refuel it.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

This stops all 1.x players. Anything that isn't star-stuff (ie via fuel scoop) means 1.x players are 100% stuffed. Frontier could say:

- the fuel scoop now collects exotic particles that are used by the system to generate probes, and this means they are replenished via scooping
- probes are automatically refreshed at any station or outpost

Done. People have their limit; it doesn't actually prevent anyone at all from just playing the game and enjoying the update? But I suppose star-stuff is just too damn easy, right?

Not even star-stuff - space isn't a total vacuum, it's more of a sparse plasma - which the DSS will now collect passively to keep building probes.

 

[Kamiyoda]

I still like my initial idea of probes simply working their way back to ship. I am not fan of probes and drones being limited ammo anyway.

They explode last I heard so this must be one hell of a headcannon, I want to hear this.

 

[kofeyh]

If FD suggested any finite number, whether it be 200 or 200,000, the people that complained about having to find mats for the probes when the system was first explained would be the ones complaining instead of the ones that don't like/can't accept infinite probes. Whichever way FD went on this, sure as little green apples some segment of the community were going to get their knickers in a twist.

Hang on; did you read the bit about 1.x being unable to use probes if they can't resupply them because they don't have materials? Or are we just generalising now, and missing the entire point of the update; which is to improve exploration for everyone.

Typically? That would involve commanders exploring; not making parts of that, impossible for anyone in 1.x. And frankly, if the concern is the amount, not the resupply source, make it hydrogen from stars or via station services and that solves it fine.

 

[KG_Jedi]

Say ADS will have 1000 probes ammo, which you could restock by using synthesis of many low tier mats or by visiting any station. Gives a nice buffer for exploring for free a while, then you either restock or synthesize those.