Frontier you talked about the "traveler" style of exploration and misunderstood one key thing

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
What does FSS stand for?
…

Full System Scanner.
(Incredible what reading official announcements can reveal )

Thing is, showing the system map without scanning wouldn't make any sense because if you already know which planets are where in the system you wouldn't need to scan them anymore. So keeping the instant reveal is a solution for your problem, but not a solution for the other problem: That the current exploration gameplay is boring and uninspired.

The new FSS is basically a long range DSS - detailed surface scanner.

In the current system discovery scanner and detailed surface scanner are separate things. In the new scanning system they are identical (and have both the same infinite range).

A simple honk in the current system revealed the system map, but not the detailed surface information. In the new system it reveals how many objects there are in the system, roughly what these objects are - the only thing removed is the relative position of those objects.

In an alternative system a honk could reveal the system map. Then the FSS is required to detail surface scan the objects - using the exact same method as the new FSS. The FSS then reveals the absolute position of the object, their material composition and other data and the USSs and other signal sources.
It could be adjusted in a way that the first honk just shows rough representations of objects (same representation for rocky, metal, metal rich object, same representation for atmospheric objects…).

The real problem with current exploration gameplay is that there is in almost all systems nothing interesting to find and the new scanning system won't change that. Revealing the system map in itself is not an interesting gameplay aspect. What makes it interesting is what players then do with that information.

With the new mapping system things get interesting as POIs can be found - it remains to be seen how often interesting POIs will be found - but this is a good addition. But it has nothing to do with the way system scanning works.

The discovery part of the Codex sounds very interesting and might add a lot to the exploration gameplay, but again it has nothing to do with the system scanning.

What makes the current exploration gameplay boring and uninspiring is the lack of something to find and the difficulty to find it. It's not, in my opinion, the instant reveal of the system map. It's the lack of something to find inside the system.

And as I said, the surface mapping resolves that problem of lack of something to find in the system. It has nothing to do with the system scanning.

 

[Jukelo]

I would like to point out that in my experience as an explorer, every system has pretty sights. Maybe not spectacular sights, but every single system I enter, I know that if I spend a few moments looking for it I will find some place on some random icy moon where I can just land the ship and sit back for a moment thinking 'this is what I play this game for'.

 

[Koen]

I guess you will have to learn all the intricacies of reading comprehension.

My reading comprehension is fine, thank you very much. When you learn the new system, perhaps you might find it to be more powerful than you believe now it is (we have after all only got a very brief demonstration on how it works, and I bet it will further evolve in the future), and even discover new kinds of "interesting" stuff in the galaxy.

Edit: see Obsidian Ant's picture six posts below this one for an excellent example of "interesting" things which might become more easy to find in the new exploration system.

I know the video is in your signature....but for anyone who doesn't understand what this is about, the video speaks more than words...

This is helpful, repped.

To the OP: perhaps include the picture inside the link, in stead of just the small text below it. Now I thought: awesome picture, hovered my pointer over it but it did not show a link, so I guessed there was nothing more to see. No rep for your posts here in this thread, but I upvoted your youtube videos as they deserve it.

Edit: I really hope you will find new ways to discover "interesting" stuff, as I look forward to watching more of your videos.

The saving grace could be the 'Stellar Forge Oddity Aficionados' (as opposed to 'traveler')

Now I am getting confused by the meaning of the word "traveller". During the stream, I understood it as somebody who travels from point A to point B while honking along the way. Seems I was wrong about that... Is it a reference to the Traveller RPG?

If it aint broke, don't fix it. Old engineering motto.

Disagreed. The whole point of Beyond is (among other things, such as connecting the disconnected minigames) getting rid of the many placeholders in the game, and the old exploration mechanic was clearly that and in dire need to be updated.

I'm done with this. Done with these forums. Done with the crappy people here.

Some of the posters here are rude indeed, but most are not.

Generalizations are ALWAYS p) wrong.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I would like to point out that in my experience as an explorer, every system has pretty sights. Maybe not spectacular sights, but every single system I enter, I know that if I spend a few moments looking for it I will find some place on some random icy moon where I can just land the ship and sit back for a moment thinking 'this is what I play this game for'.

But that's a thing right?

If you can easily, even too easily access system info, your idea of what is interesting and pretty gets distorted, because you can skip lot of things. It is highly subjective to begin with, but your definition of interesting depends on subjective situation. If you can just honk and jump and open system map....you will be interested into something that is extremely unique. But that's very limited window to the game's world even if you might it like it at the moment. It's a bit of dead end.

 

[[SI] Bobdelion]

I'm not sure that there really is a 'win/win' here, given that the aim inherent in this update is to make the system scanning gameplay more involved and engaging. Any change along those lines would always have ended up with things taking more time/effort than the current one click - and very simplistic - solution. It appears that the compromise FDev have struck upon is that The Honk now only gets you the system star(s?), and then have optimised the mechanics so that the new scanning gameplay can be operated quickly (and selectively) if you just spend a bit of time learning its way of doing things. I think this is probably the best compromise possible given the new requirements and as someone long hoping for more variation/control/interest in system scanning I can't say I'll miss the old way of doing things all that much. In the words of every FA-Off guru out there, it's just going to be incumbent upon us to 'Git Gud'.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

What is being pointed out - repeatedly - is that the FSS system is really cool. Really, it is. But, hiding a system schematic behind the FSS mechanic - for 1000's of star systems - is going to become grating for the likes of the OP's/mine/Ziggy/etc's style of exploration. We. Are. Not. Travelers as defined by FDEV in their livestream.

I also predict that it's going to become grating after the umpteenth time, for the majority of players. But time will tell and I patiently wait for the beta so everyone can give it a go.

I'll be livestreaming my beta testing of this - looking very much forward to everything else, mind!

 

[Elan]

Hi all...

We would love for you to try out the new mechanics during the beta and provide us with feedback on how it impact the way you play.

OP Appears to be on Xbox, so RIP any chance of him providing feedback from the beta.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Also you will also being able to find the Stellar Forge Oddities while searching for these POI's. So it could be a win win.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Provided the POIs will hold interest.

You seem pretty convinced that oddities will be found less often, but really if there is any sightly marginal reduced rate of discovery per Commander, it will be massively offset by several factors: increased accuracy and detail afforded by the new toolset, communal discovery making double passes/checks much easier, rumours, and of course the vast new army of Explorers that is sure to be roaming the Galaxy starting in December.

So chin up Alad. It's a bright new dawn. No need to pin all your hopes on POIs.

Stellar Forge oddities will be found less often, since it takes longer to determine those oddities. And I want to be the one who finds those oddities, because I want to fly around in them. No use other CMDRs finding them.

I do pin a lot on the POIs. If these are duds, the only motivator of going into the system is monetary. And it's a motivator I lack.

My exploration style is identical to that of the OP, and I share their concerns. The new system will undoubtedly slow down the sight seeing form of exploration. Added to that, for me personally, it will also likely add to the time it takes me to create exploration based videos.

All that said, I'm of the opinion that the changes are worth the price. I'm happy to adapt to the new system, because it is clearly better in many ways. We will have to wait until Beta to test for ourselves of course, but my impressions are that the new exploration changes will make this an overall much improved game. If that means I lose my current exploration style, or (more like the case) have to adapt my exploration style, then I'm all for it!

My take as well.

Apart from the beta not revealing longevity. And that's for me more important than anything.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Thanks for that.

Not finding a solution is understandable, but the way you guys phrased it in the stream did sound a little odd.

The saving grace could be the 'Stellar Forge Oddity Aficionados' (as opposed to 'traveler') finding their oddity fix in the POIs. But that would mean that the POIs are open to the possibility of having oddities. We'll find out about that after the beta, when we have been using that feature for an extended time. It seems that the new mechanism is slow to reveal the layout of the system (but as you said, presents it better in the orrery) but throws quite a few POIs your way. If investigating these POIs holds the interest for a long while, then I believe the SFOAs will perhaps be able to scratch the itch they're looking for now in a different way.

So ... get cracking on diversifying them POIs!

Do you mean POIs like this?

If so, I wouldn't mind betting there will be plenty to find.

 

[Shadowdancer]

The "old"/current discovery scanner honk is very much "getting lots of credits for just holding a button for a few seconds", and IMO a bit lazy. In that regard, I welcome the changes. It's a nice compromise between the immediate near-omniscience of the ADS and the near-blindness advocated by some players.

The new system maybe promotes a slight separation between travel and "true exploration" (which would fit in with the idea of Frontier planting rumours that make players comb through selected volumes of space), and AFAICT the new system mapping allows you to get all the monetary rewards of current exploration, including discoveries, without even getting out of the arrival star's corona.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

My exploration style is identical to that of the OP, and I share their concerns. The new system will undoubtedly slow down the sight seeing form of exploration. Added to that, for me personally, it will also likely add to the time it takes me to create exploration based videos.

Are you sure about that? How long did it take for you to find a planet with volcanic activity and find some geysers under the old system and how do you think this will compare to the new system, for example?

 

[Obsidian Ant]

What is being pointed out - repeatedly - is that the FSS system is really cool. Really, it is. But, hiding a system schematic behind the FSS mechanic - for 1000's of star systems - is going to become grating for the likes of the OP's/mine/Ziggy/etc's style of exploration. We. Are. Not. Travelers as defined by FDEV in their livestream.

I also predict that it's going to become grating after the umpteenth time, for the majority of players. But time will tell and I patiently wait for the beta so everyone can give it a go.

I'll be livestreaming my beta testing of this - looking very much forward to everything else, mind!

If you want a snap shot of the system, you don't need to use the new mechanics. You can just honk, and look at the spectral analysis. You don't need to do anything beyond that for a snapshot.

Are you sure about that? How long did it take for you to find a planet with volcanic activity and find some geysers under the old system and how do you think this will compare to the new system, for example?

Exactly. That's why I said last week that I will be changing the focus of my exploration videos in the future.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do you mean POIs like this?

If so, I wouldn't mind betting there will be plenty to find.

Like that. But with enough diversity between them and among them that finding them will continue to hold my interest after I have found hundreds of them already.

If the livestream is anything to go by (9 on one, 14 on the other) I'm not taking your bet on. There will be plenty to find.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Do you mean POIs like this?




If so, I wouldn't mind betting there will be plenty to find.

If you noticed, after they had probed the moon it showed up as having 9 on one and 14 on another geological areas, I am sure there was a much smaller limit to them before due to technical reasons (like three per planet). It looks like they have done a lot of work behind the hood so to speak to make these changes and be able to have lots of POI's on a single planet.

I can see more POI's coming in the future too, such as cave systems and other non-natural POI's.

 

[znôrt]

Hi all,

I just wanted to drop by and clear up a few things:

After the first presentation of Exploration, we received a vast amount of feedback and I personally took the time to read a large amount of this. Having done so, we set out to look at the different types of explorers we have in the game and came up with nearly a dozen different types. One of which was the type presented by the OP here. We then tried to use that information to look at the new mechanics to make sure they would work for as many of those types as possible. Unfortunately we weren’t able to come up with a solution that allowed players, like the OP, to maintain their current flow without severely altering the gameplay of the other types or changing the design direction of the FSS.

We’ve made the FSA as readable at a glance as possible, with a lot of information being presented if you wish to master the system. Also as we showcased on the stream, you can become very proficient and quick with the FSS, and we believe that the additional time required isn’t too dramatic.

The Orrery view also means that you should be able to find interesting orbits or clusters of planets without having to actually visit them.

We would love for you to try out the new mechanics during the beta and provide us with feedback on how it impact the way you play.

this is exactly what i thought, and it's totally understandable. and i also nominate this for the frontier communication of the year: no fluff, to the point and as far as i can tell, honest. thank you so much. i would like to think that if you guys start talking to us like adults much misunderstanding could be avoided. disclaimer: i might be wrong!

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

If you want a snap shot of the system, you don't need to use the new mechanics. You can just honk, and look at the spectral analysis. You don't need to do anything beyond that for a snapshot.

But a picture speaks a thousand words OA

Current: Enter system, Honk - see system schematic - make a decision on whether it's worth spending more time in the system or not, depending on what you're looking for. Result: takes a mere few seconds to determine there's landable planets/moons. Multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1 or 2% of those which have something worth our time going to see.

New: Enter system. Go into FSS mode. Honk. No system schematic. Look at squiggles. There might one some gas giants here. Dial to Radio Gas Giant[tm]. Focus. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant.. maybe one or two moons. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that one's landable but doesn't look worth visiting. Result: Takes a crapload more time than the current way to come to a conclusion. Now multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1-2% of systems worth sticking around in.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It is hard to tell if they have added more things to discover....

However as we have tools now to do it properly not eye balling, I suspect they have worked on that quite a lot. Before that there was little initiative to do so as people gave up and weren't that keen just to surf around planets.

But we will know when update lands. Too early to say.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

But a picture speaks a thousand words OA

Current: Enter system, Honk - see system schematic - make a decision on whether it's worth spending more time in the system or not, depending on what you're looking for. Result: takes a mere few seconds to determine there's landable planets/moons. Multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1 or 2% of those which have something worth our time going to see.

New: Enter system. Go into FSS mode. Honk. No system schematic. Look at squiggles. There might one some gas giants here. Dial to Radio Gas Giant[tm]. Focus. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant.. maybe one or two moons. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that one's landable but doesn't look worth visiting. Result: Takes a crapload more time than the current way to come to a conclusion. Now multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1-2% of systems worth sticking around in.

Yes. It's going to be a skill based system. When you understand it enough - if you only want a snap shot, then you will be able to look at all those lines and squiggles and not have to fiddle with the dials.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

All this talk about the traveler, and all I can think of is ...

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Yes. It's going to be a skill based system. When you understand it enough - if you only want a snap shot, then you will be able to look at all those lines and squiggles and not have to fiddle with the dials.

It. Is. Not. A. Skill. Based. Minigame.

Once you've learned by rote what a "radio frequency" represents, all you'll know is "there are at least 1 of HMC, Gas Giant, ELW here" - you won't be able to tell how many moons there are. You won't be able to tell if they are landable. You won't be able to tell if they're in any way worth visiting. Not until you played Radio Planet Game. This is NOT skill.