Frontier you talked about the "traveler" style of exploration and misunderstood one key thing

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I would say not having to fly towards the object, but rather point a thingy towards the object is easier.

I find that difficult to comprehend. The location is given to you with the honk, and you just directly point your ship at it and hit honk. The new system at least demands some understanding of the signals. It takes more skill, and more effort. Cognitively. The current system takes more patience I guess. :p
 
For starters: It would be like the classic looking for Easter eggs with hiding all eggs but also, alternatively, offer a detailed plan for all positions. Does this make sense to you?
I understand where you are coming from but believe you are wrong - not even a good analogy IMO.

The Honk as it currently stands reveals the body and major cluster locations and not really much else. It does not tell you reliably what is or is not worth investigating in more detail. The visual image we get from the topological sector map does not give 100% accurate data to say what is or is not worth scanning - if you are into cherry picking that is, which I am not really - but I am aware of this because I do use it to check for scans by previous visitors.

The frequency scans could have been tied to other more detailed discoveries on the planets and potentially other space based information. Knowing the location and type of asteroid belts does not tell you whether there is anything of particular interest in them for example.

So the spectrum could have only been made to reveal position or planet type? :rolleyes:
That is what the parallax/signal search brigades would have you believe.
 
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The new system at least demands some understanding of the signals. It takes more skill, and more effort. Cognitively. The current system takes more patience I guess. :p

Patience and effort yes absolutely, but let's be serious, the skill we're talking about here is pointing at blue balls... For hundreds and thousands of times, pointing at balls. Honestly, for how long do you envisage to go out pointing at balls before you're completely fed up with pointing balls? Days, weeks, months? Because people far out in space can't simply park their ships and go do some trading or combat for a while for a change of pace, and then resume the ball pointing later, they will be commited and stuck with pointing at balls for a very long time.

I would be willing to bet that most people who were pro-space binoculars before the actual reveal were not anticipating that the "skill-based exploration" they were campaigning for would result in just pointing at blue balls. :)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have more gameplay during exploration, more environmental hazards, more survival gameplay, more actual interactions with the environment, more things to do on planets, etc. That's what I was hoping for all year. What surely I didn't expect was the exploration gameplay update would result in just having to spend time building the system map so that I could finally be able to begin exploring the systems. As for the exploration gameplay update, the mountain gave birth to a mouse (not sure this makes sense in english). It's like having a barebones football game, where the only mechanics were short pass and power shot, then after many years a match engine revamp is announced, and instead of crosses, dribbles, high passes, curve shots, etc, it resulted just in a shoe lace tying minigame before the match starts. That's how this exploration update feels to me :D (regarding the new exploration mechanics I mean, I did like most of the other stuff).

In the end, I think what will, or not, make a difference (for me) is how many, how interesting, and especially how much variety will be in the new(?) planetary and space based POIs, and if they will be enough to make it worthwhile to go through all the endless ball pointing. Because "discovering that there are planets in the system" is not really that interesting in itself, as planets being there is already a given for 99% of systems, and I really don't see myself doing the 2500th thousand ball pointing just to see the 500th fumarole.
 
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Wooo, the majority club! I'm impressed. How much are you, I count 2 trying to gank me in a silly act of forum PvP. I always feel a little pity about so much boredom...



Not what I said. Never claimed a majority; you have though. You are the one browbeating others, not me.
 
Part of the problem is one of terminology. The new system is really more cartography, surveying, or prospecting, not exploring. The credit value of a body, lore wise, is pretty much just the value body as a potential surface colony. Natural resources don't even really come into play that much when you really think about it. To a large degree the term "survey" would cover both cartography and prospecting. So you have the surveyors who this system is good for, they're interested in mapping, finding resources and such vs the explorer who would find a beautiful site more valuable than a planet made of money.

I had asked a question in the feedback thread when the new system was initially introduced that was basically what is the lore explanation for this system. If we were really living during the time of Elite this system or anything remotely like it would never exist. It's too easy to have a bot do this today, let alone more than thousand years in the future. This went totally ignored. The reason I bring this up is I think it encapsulates what a lot of people find so wrong. This new system is basically FD openly saying they have no intention of ever giving us anything interesting to find, instead they just want to gamify things to make them interesting. Forget the lore, forget the simulation aspect, forget the immersion play a minigame and get your credits.

There could be so many interesting things to actually find, both natural and artificial phenomena. One only needs to look at one of numerous astronomical websites to see what could be possible for natural phenomena. For artificial we know of at least two alien species, and lost generation ships. We could have much deeper exploration of that from exploration of cities to long lost colonies. The whole game seems to be shifting to the idea that the entire purpose of the game is nothing at all beyond grind for credits. There's little simulation of an economy so trading is just going back and forth between two systems. Community goals? They're not even trying anymore it's the same few canned lines. Thargoids? There's no battle lines or simulation there, kill them for credits or haul passengers out of damaged stations for credits.

So I think people see this and think a hundred people working on this for however long and all they could come up with is another credit grind?
 
Yeah, but that wouldn't make any sense in the new system. How would you know the gravity or inclination of a body if you haven't found it yet or know their composition.

Dopler from shift from motion. As for gravity the system seems to cope fine with finding out the composition (Icy / ELW / Rocky / Gas / etc...)

Orbital inclination is not that hard if the system can detect the direction of motion and such.

But then again, where there is no want, there is no can, heh. ;)
 
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Repped, it is a rare occurrence here for someone to admit they might have been initially over emotional - well said Commander, very well said.

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I will admit that now exploring (as I do it) will now take a considerably longer, but that is okay because exploring isn't a race for me, and the benefits will far outweigh the additional hours I spend in the black. See I am what some call a completest, I will scan every body in a system, no matter how mundane it is, no matter how far away from the primary it is. That is how I like exploring.

But the new system has offered up considerably more for me. Where previously I was just interested in bodies, now I will be able to find content I missed before like listening posts, generation ships and most importantly, POI on planetary surfaces. I know I will not be able to resist dropping down to a surface if the initial DS scan reveals something interesting, and the resulting SS probes resolve that something into a set location. I know I will see and experience phenomena that I have never seen, and without this new system would probably never see - and for that I offer a very large THANK YOU to FD for making it possible.
 
I'm exploring for sightseeing, unique discoveries and geological stuff on planets...not for the money / cherry picking and for me chapter 3 looks very promising :)

No more eyeballing and hours to search (often for nothing) geological stuff on planets. Orrery map...just wow...planet mapping / probes...can't wait to try.

It will change how we were used to explore but I think that it's really for the best of Elite Dangerous :)
 
What do you mean?

Ok, here's some of the problems:

  • players not knowing there's things out there to find
  • players thinking all there is to exploration is jumping and scanning
  • players not knowing how to go about finding things
  • the sheer difficulty in finding things which means:
  • some will never be stumbled over by chance
  • some will never be found by someone on their own, even if they know they're out there, and even if they know how to look
  • knowledge of them depending on out-of-game sources
  • how this all negatively impacts on people's knowledge of & involvement in the many story threads criss-crossing the game

In terms of what's out there to find (and it's currently found) I covered quite a bit of the surface stuff in this post

There's also the 'Tubeworms' which I mentioned somewhere - known of since the 2.2 Trailer, but not yet discovered (or at least not yet discovered and reported through any of the normal channels).

Then in the space there's all the usual stuff like CZz, RES's etc, but there's also UCB's, Listening Posts, other Beacons, Gen Ships, Installations, Capital Ships (working and wrecked), Probes, and so on. some of which people will stumble across quite easily but others which they won't, and probably never would without an out-of-game source of info.

The new FSS mechanic, will make these things a lot more obvious to people and allow them to discover them (in conjunction with other mechanics). This will open these things up to a lot of people. Some people might actually have no interest in them, which is up to them, but as it stands, a lot of the time people would not even know the things are there so wouldn't even have a choice as to whether it interests them.

Here's how it will do that:

Things in space - these will show in the new interface in the Filtered Signal Bar - you'll get used to the signals for the usual bodies quite quickly, and then at some point you're going to jump into a system, fire up the FSS and see a signal on there that you've never seen before. Some people are going to at some point see signals that no one (outside of FD) has seen before.

Things on planets - these will be indicated when you scan planets in with the FSS. At this point you'll know somethings there and can choose whether to go and investigate further. As part of the scanning bodies/systems people are going to be finding that there are things on the planets that they would never have known were there in the current system, and may never have known even existed.

Ok, so that covers the problems and how the new FSS mechanic helps fix them.

So why would retaining the current honk mechanism alongside the new FSS mechanic be detrimental to the fixing of the problems?

Well a key reason is that is a lot of people are creatures of habit. Some would just continue with the existing mechanic. Some would try the new mechanic but unless they find something unusual and interesting in the first couple of uses they will just go 'well that's pointless, it's just a longer way of getting the same thing' and will go back to using the existing mechanism. All the problems above are going to remain, or at least be less well addressed for all those people. Now as forumites who watched the livestream, read the summary, participate in the discussions, etc. it might seem like I'm how much that would happen because we all know the reasons to use the FSS, but thing is that there also all the people who don't participate in the forums, don't watch the streams, etc. and just play the game and won't know as well as we do why they should use the FSS, and they need to be taken into account.

Long explanation, but there we go.

(I feel I'd better just clarify that I'm not claiming to know FD's thoughts on all this, but I do know all the problems I talked about exist, and how the new mechanics are going help to help fix them, whether that's by FD's intent or not.)
 
Repped, it is a rare occurrence here for someone to admit they might have been initially over emotional - well said Commander, very well said.

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I will admit that now exploring (as I do it) will now take a considerably longer, but that is okay because exploring isn't a race for me, and the benefits will far outweigh the additional hours I spend in the black. See I am what some call a completest, I will scan every body in a system, no matter how mundane it is, no matter how far away from the primary it is. That is how I like exploring.

But the new system has offered up considerably more for me. Where previously I was just interested in bodies, now I will be able to find content I missed before like listening posts, generation ships and most importantly, POI on planetary surfaces. I know I will not be able to resist dropping down to a surface if the initial DS scan reveals something interesting, and the resulting SS probes resolve that something into a set location. I know I will see and experience phenomena that I have never seen, and without this new system would probably never see - and for that I offer a very large THANK YOU to FD for making it possible.



Fair enough. I agree there are things to like about the new system in so far as we have seen it. Like you my exploration preferences are going to be made difficult at best (instead of a quick look it could now take 10, 20 or 30 minutes). As the system types I am interested in are somewhat few and far between (no, not WW or ELW) this becomes a real barrier. Less systems searched, less objects of interest (to me) encountered, less enjoyment. Yes the credit making is going to rock with the new system, no doubt about it. POI should be good too. Not my cup of tea (unless it is on my preferred planet type). It won't show up the 18k plus radius landable planets I like finding and playing on without an extensive time investment (includes snowballs, go figure). Still, 4k hours (plus/minus) in I will give it a go (no choice about that really). If it really grates on me I will unload it. Simple. I will admit I would have been happy with the blacked out system map with relative size and landable or not displayed (black globes w/landable halo). I buy in for the rest. I have billions. It's not about that. Period. Not going to get what I want though so time will tell if it's file 13 or a keeper.

Huh? You must confuse me with someone else. I never hesitate to say I'm talking in my own behalf, just can't repeat it each time I post something.



No, I am not confused.
 
The new FSS mechanic, will make these things a lot more obvious to people and allow them to discover them (in conjunction with other mechanics). This will open these things up to a lot of people. Some people might actually have no interest in them, which is up to them, but as it stands, a lot of the time people would not even know the things are there so wouldn't even have a choice as to whether it interests them.
I do not agree with your assessment that the concerns you mentioned are actually problems, the new FSS mechanic may make them more obvious but it is the sledge hammer approach. There are other ways that such things can be made more obvious without turning even the most basic level of exploration into a total grind - which is what the FSS mechanic sounds like to me.

You talk about sheer difficulty in finding things but the FSS would seem to exasperate that and for lower level information too.

Overall, while I can see some positive aspects to the FSS mechanics, the honk should not have been (effectively) removed as it has been IMO.
 
I will admit that now exploring (as I do it) will now take a considerably longer, but that is okay because exploring isn't a race for me, and the benefits will far outweigh the additional hours I spend in the black. See I am what some call a completest, I will scan every body in a system, no matter how mundane it is, no matter how far away from the primary it is. That is how I like exploring.

But the new system has offered up considerably more for me. Where previously I was just interested in bodies, now I will be able to find content I missed before like listening posts, generation ships and most importantly, POI on planetary surfaces. I know I will not be able to resist dropping down to a surface if the initial DS scan reveals something interesting, and the resulting SS probes resolve that something into a set location. I know I will see and experience phenomena that I have never seen, and without this new system would probably never see - and for that I offer a very large THANK YOU to FD for making it possible.

You know, I really don't think it's going to slow down your style of exploration at all, in fact I reckon it'll be much faster!

You're not going to need to fly to bodies in a system, no matter how remote, unless you want to map them for POI's, and the actual scanning process appears from what I saw on the stream to be much quicker than the current DSS even ignoring the flight time.

Now, I would have said that doing the new DSS probe mapping game would be slower, but I'm not even convinced of that, because while it will take some time to fly to the body, and still more time to probe / map it, once that is done you are guaranteed to be able to find any POI's you are looking for. So the only activity that will take more time than exploration does now is mapping a body for the first mapped tag if you're not searching for something.

I have been opposed to the new system, and obviously I'll wait to play it in beta to see how it actually plays. My opposition was that I only want to spend time scanning systems that I deem interesting or worthwhile (I'm not talking about credits), and like you, if I scan one body in a system, then I scan them all. A quick glance of the system map used to tell me whether it was worthwhile to me. I'm thinking now that a quick glance at the energy distribution bar will tell me that too, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being more transparent than the system map was. After that, if I choose to stay and detail scan, well, it'll be quicker, much quicker.

I don't share the feeling that this new game-play is more skillful. It's certainly more active - exploration was almost entirely passive before. The devs have replaced a couple of lengthy passive activities (flying in SC and letting the DSS complete it's scan) with what seems to be a much quicker hands on activity. This has been and always will be Elite's problem, the game world is huge, and that distance always translated into time, and they've basically come up with a way to make the distances irrelevant unless you choose to map.

Time will tell how well the new FSS game-play holds up to repeated use, and time will tell if the POI's out there are worth the time it will take to locate them. :)
 
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