∞ probes?

[Stealthie]

At some point there has to be a line in the sand drawn about HOW realisitic a thing is going to be. Due to hardware/software limitations at the time of creation and WHAT CONSTITUTES FUN. After all, it's a game. Concessions need to be made for that.

Yeah, but that's where you have to consider how a dev' is dealing with stuff in broader terms.

We currently have a game where you need to collect a gazillion mat's to upgrade your ship, you have to collect mat's to create FSD injections, mat's to synthesise, umm, everything, mat's to resupply your AFMU, mat's to restock your HSL and mat's to refuel your SRV.

And now, suddenly, no mat's required to create an infinite supply of probes.

Surely it's undeniable that one of these things isn't like all the others?

The internal logic of the game has been disregarded.

Don't get me wrong.
I'm right with anybody who says that they're sick to bloody death of collecting mat's and the last thing the game needs is more of it.
If that's the case, though, maybe what FDev should be doing is looking at the big picture and looking for a way to reduce that requirement so that people aren't so sick of collecting mat's that they're unwilling to do it?

I really like the idea of having to keep a look-out for suitable worlds to make pitstops to resupply while exploring.
I'd actually like it if there were more reasons to do that.
The trick is to make it infrequent enough that it actually becomes an enjoyable part of exploring rather than a tedious necessity.
Do that and you can retain the game's internal consistency without annoying players.

 

[Red Anders]

Well said, thing is though players that want instant gratification are not really invested enough into ED to stick around, hence FD are foolish to pander to people who won't be here for season 4.

LOL. Infinite probes seems fine to me. I have 3,000 hours in the game, is that enough for me to have an opinion?

 

[Tarman]

LOL. Infinite probes seems fine to me. I have 3,000 hours in the game, is that enough for me to have an opinion?

Is it the same opinion?

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

Yeah, but that's where you have to consider how a dev' is dealing with stuff in broader terms.

We currently have a game where you need to collect a gazillion mat's to upgrade your ship, you have to collect mat's to create FSD injections, mat's to synthesise, umm, everything, mat's to resupply your AFMU, mat's to restock your HSL and mat's to refuel your SRV.

And now, suddenly, no mat's required to create an infinite supply of probes.

Surely it's undeniable that one of these things isn't like all the others?

The internal logic of the game has been disregarded.

Don't get me wrong.
I'm right with anybody who says that they're sick to bloody death of collecting mat's and the last thing the game needs is more of it.
If that's the case, though, maybe what FDev should be doing is looking at the big picture and looking for a way to reduce that requirement so that people aren't so sick of collecting mat's that they're unwilling to do it?

I really like the idea of having to keep a look-out for suitable worlds to make pitstops to resupply while exploring.
I'd actually like it if there were more reasons to do that.
The trick is to make it infrequent enough that it actually becomes an enjoyable part of exploring rather than a tedious necessity.
Do that and you can retain the game's internal consistency without annoying players.

So in essence explorers have had their material grind not added to.
To be honest I've done so much material gathering for engineers if the material gathering gained another layer for exploration with finite probes I'd probably just not bother.
The idea of hopping around the galaxy being able to discover things for myself without without messing with graphics settings and trawling over a planet by eye is very appealing to me. It sounds like a better flow. To interrupt that to farm materials is just an uneccessary distraction.
Faffing about farming materials on planets is one of my most hated activities in this game (with the exception of Thargoid/Guardian sites). I've done an unseemly amount of it in order to experiment with ships. Driving over mostly featureless terrain to shoot rocks for random drops is a thing I HAVE to do in order to do the things I WANT to do.
If infite probes is an indicator of Fdev reducing the grind across the board I'm all for it.
It looks as though signal source hunting is going to be improved. The new interactions look like they'll add fun ways to earn credits and materials. Overly focusing on this one small aspect in a wealth of what, prima face, is positive change seems a tad nit picky to me.
I sort of see where your coming from if you really like the micro management stuff. However you're not losing any of the stuff you have to micro manage currently and it's not being added too either so net effect, in this regard, is no change.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Yeah, but that's where you have to consider how a dev' is dealing with stuff in broader terms.

We currently have a game where you need to collect a gazillion mat's to upgrade your ship, you have to collect mat's to create FSD injections, mat's to synthesise, umm, everything, mat's to resupply your AFMU, mat's to restock your HSL and mat's to refuel your SRV.

And now, suddenly, no mat's required to create an infinite supply of probes.

Surely it's undeniable that one of these things isn't like all the others?

The internal logic of the game has been disregarded.

Don't get me wrong.
I'm right with anybody who says that they're sick to bloody death of collecting mat's and the last thing the game needs is more of it.
If that's the case, though, maybe what FDev should be doing is looking at the big picture and looking for a way to reduce that requirement so that people aren't so sick of collecting mat's that they're unwilling to do it?

I really like the idea of having to keep a look-out for suitable worlds to make pitstops to resupply while exploring.
I'd actually like it if there were more reasons to do that.
The trick is to make it infrequent enough that it actually becomes an enjoyable part of exploring rather than a tedious necessity.
Do that and you can retain the game's internal consistency without annoying players.

I bring up, once again, the unlimited "honk", what we've seen called in the upcoming release as an "energy pulse".
What is to say that these "probes" are actually a physical object, and not some form of concentrated energy?
How many "reloads" does an ultrasound require?
How many "rounds" does a radar pulse consume?
How about those "ECM charges"?
This is, for all intents and purposes, a brand-new 34th century technology, perhaps even derived from bits of alien technology.
What we don't have is an "Elite Technical Manual" that consistently explains the technology we use.

But I don't disagree with the notion of internal consistency, or the lack thereof.

A mission contact can find me anywhere in the galaxy to send me an update near instantly.
Yet I cannot transmit my Exploration data and have to transfer it manually.
I also cannot complete a mission from where ever I happen to be, using that same communications system by which I receive messages, but have to return to the station and system where I received it. Clearly the recipient of a load of cargo could just as easily confirm they have received the cargo I am delivering and inform the sender of this, and my payment could then be transferred electronically.

 

[Lestat]

The idea of hopping around the galaxy being able to discover things for myself without without messing with graphics settings and trawling over a planet by eye is very appealing to me. It sounds like a better flow. To interrupt that to farm materials is just an uneccessary distraction.

That going to be a bummer because there will be POI on the Planet surface after you scan it.

I do understand the Computer vs Games. You have to find a middle ground so you can play the game the best of your computer system ability you have a few options. Upgrade your GPU if it has a dedicated GPU or buy a new computer system. Like computers, Games do upgrade Graphics and such so older computer might not run them like it uses to.

What going to happen if they add walking and Earth like planet landing?

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

That going to be a bummer because there will be POI on the Planet surface after you scan it.

I do understand the Computer vs Games. You have to find a middle ground so you can play the game the best of your computer system ability you have a few options. Upgrade your GPU if it has a dedicated GPU or buy a new computer system. Like computers, Games do upgrade Graphics and such so older computer might not run them like it uses to.

My pc runs ED just great!
I was reffering to the method of finding stuff on planet surfaces where explorers would turn down their graphics settings to spot different coloured smudges.
Different coloured smudge = something to find.
As for planetary POI's no problem if my probes pick up a direction to head toward. It's the aimlessness of pootling about shooting rocks that grates on me.

 

[Lestat]

My pc runs ED just great!
I was reffering to the method of finding stuff on planet surfaces where explorers would turn down their graphics settings to spot different coloured smudges.
Different coloured smudge = something to find.
As for planetary POI's no problem if my probes pick up a direction to head toward. It's the aimlessness of pootling about shooting rocks that grates on me.

So you are admitting you are using an exploit to find mineral. Great, we should report this so Frontier could fix it.

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

So you are admitting you are using an exploit to find mineral. Great, we should report this so Frontier could fix it.

Sweet zombie cheeses...
No, I'm saying that method is boring and utterly unappealing but has been used by some in the past.
It would appear Fdev have fixed this by giving us planetary probes. How they could have 'fixed' people messing with graphics settings on a PC I have no idea.
Kinda jumped in with both feet on that accusation. Never mind. Who hasn't got the wrong end of the stick on occassion?

Edit: That method was used for things like barnacle sites (not minerals/rocks) in the past I believe.

 

[Tharrn]

So you are admitting you are using an exploit to find mineral. Great, we should report this so Frontier could fix it.

Let me wager a guess... beige patrol is a term you do not associate anything with.

 

[Stigbob]

IMHO giving players unlimited probes may make the new planet scanning gameplay a little more accessible, but it goes against the whole "you need to be prepared when doing deep space exploration" concept of ED. I am not saying it's a bad decision by itself (even though I would have preferred the need for some resource management here, too), but I think it highlights how inconsistent design decisions are made for ED - very often they strive for the harshness of plausibility or even realism when creating the dangers of space (unforgiving high gravity planets, heat damage when approaching stars etc.) and then again there is instant multi-crewing via "holo me" (still hate that design decision) or now the unlimited probes.
Like I said, I just think those design decisions are very inconsistent and show that FD sometimes can't make up their mind.

Yes, but there's people half way round the galaxy who would need to return and refit, ship rebalance questions right across the board and non-Horizons compatibility as knock on effects of this one.

These are all real issues as side effects of this one minor thing that seems for some to be an immersion/inconsistency line in the sand you shouldn't cross in a video game with 3km lasers instant cargo loading and stacks of other inconsistencies (none of which bother me at all).

Infinite is the only realistic option because of wider issues beyond the individuals who make up the 10%.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

IF we had finite probes, what would people consider acceptable, for both overall ammo count, and synthesis?

If a couple of iron and sulphur restocked the lot, I'd be fine with that. I trip over that stuff all the time, and I do like to land occasionally and zoom around (probably more so with being able to find things, using probes!).
But if the ammo count was less than required to scan a couple of average sized systems, then it'd get on my nerves real quick. If the ammo count was enough to cover an entire short trip, it'd be pointless having an ammo count.

But the the whole system falls over if I somehow blow up all my SRVs. Lol

Solution;
Infinite SRVs... Lol

Just kidding.
SRV Synthesis or SLF style printing.

But then people without Horizons still can't make more probes very easily, especially without a mining laser.

Solution;
Mineral Mining Laser. Doesn't cut deep enough to pull off ore, just tickles the asteroid to give up elements.
But you'd still need to install one.

But, that's a lot more work than just making probes unlimited.

 

[Stigbob]

IF we had finite probes, what would people consider acceptable, for both overall ammo count, and synthesis?

If a couple of iron and sulphur restocked the lot, I'd be fine with that. I trip over that stuff all the time, and I do like to land occasionally and zoom around (probably more so with being able to find things, using probes!).
But if the ammo count was less than required to scan a couple of average sized systems, then it'd get on my nerves real quick. If the ammo count was enough to cover an entire short trip, it'd be pointless having an ammo count.

But the the whole system falls over if I somehow blow up all my SRVs. Lol

Solution;
Infinite SRVs... Lol

Just kidding.
SRV Synthesis or SLF style printing.

But then people without Horizons still can't make more probes very easily, especially without a mining laser.

Solution;
Mineral Mining Laser. Doesn't cut deep enough to pull off ore, just tickles the asteroid to give up elements.
But you'd still need to install one.

But, that's a lot more work than just making probes unlimited.

You still have to take into account Johnny galactic circumnavigation and where he's currently at.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

You still have to take into account Johnny galactic circumnavigation and where he's currently at.

Put a starport or surface port in every single system!

Solved!

 

[space voyager]

You still have to take into account Johnny galactic circumnavigation and where he's currently at.

Actually I'd hate it if the game always conformed to the lowest possible denominator for ALL players.

 

[Stigbob]

Put a starport or surface port in every single system!

Solved!

Its the only sensible option.

Actually I'd hate it if the game always conformed to the lowest possible denominator for ALL players.

Yeah explorers shouldn't expect any consideration in this, who do they think they are ?.

 

[andrewg_oz]

You still have to take into account Johnny galactic circumnavigation and where he's currently at.

I think the number of players doing that would be tiny enough that they could be handled by support on a case-by-case basis.

Also, with the stories of deep-space explorers getting stuck in systems for want of some jumponium they could have got from asteroids if only they had a mining laser (and Chiggy von Richthofen bucky-balling out to save them) has meant that all my exploration ships now have a mining laser. Exploring without a mining laser is like exploring without a fuel scoop.

 

[bitstorm]

Its the only sensible option.



Yeah explorers shouldn't expect any consideration in this, who do they think they are ?.

I have this theory (it's just a theory!) that (generally) people who wanted delayed ship transfer, are the people who don't use ship transfer.

The people who do/would use ship transfer are likely in one or more of these groups either, social players, players with very little time on their hands due to real life priorities, people who aren't that focused on realism.


To move it to probes...

Given something NeilF said I have a feeling it might be similar with probes. That at the end of the day most players will drop into a system, scan it and maybe probe one body only, then sod off. Probe use will be really low.

While some extreme explorers, will want to map EVERYTHING, in every single system. Probe use will be very high.

So you can have this situation, where the vast majority of players who it would not effect anyway end up removing a mechanic from the people who might want it and who it would effect. (the hardcore explorers)


It's a shame to think features can be decided by people who aren't effected by a feature.

I think this would only really come out by actually testing the thing for a decent amount of time.

 

[Stealthie]

I bring up, once again, the unlimited "honk", what we've seen called in the upcoming release as an "energy pulse".
What is to say that these "probes" are actually a physical object, and not some form of concentrated energy?
How many "reloads" does an ultrasound require?
How many "rounds" does a radar pulse consume?
How about those "ECM charges"?
This is, for all intents and purposes, a brand-new 34th century technology, perhaps even derived from bits of alien technology.
What we don't have is an "Elite Technical Manual" that consistently explains the technology we use.

See, that's an interesting point.

Having watched the livestream after becoming aware of the controversy over infinite probes, it occurred to me that they could have made the "probes" into some kind of "scan" instead and negated the whole issue.

At the moment, they're called "probes", you can see them whizzing through supercruise, they are affected by the gravity of a planet and they impact into the surface, which all rather implies they're physical objects but with a bit of effort the whole process could have been modified so it involved some kind of "energy burst" that you're able to "bounce off the EMF of a planet" in order to direct it at the opposite side of a planet instead.

Trouble is, FDev seem to decide on something, commit to it and then, even if they fundamentally change the associated process, they stick with their original concept even if it no longer makes any sense.

Might sound a bit petty (and it probably is) but that lack of polish is what people notice and which, when you have an accumulation of similarly bodged things, is what gives ED a reputation as a bit of a dog's dinner of inconsistencies rather than being the peerless game that it should really be.

Sometimes, a dev' has to accept that if they're going to change their minds about something, they're going to have to re-work other things related to it and that might mean abandoning work that's already been completed.

 

[Stealthie]

You still have to take into account Johnny galactic circumnavigation and where he's currently at.

I don't see an issue there.

Johnny galactic circumnavigation will get updated modules which can launch probes, regardless of whether he has to stop and collect mat's to re-stock his probes.