What's The Mamba's niche?

[Bortas]

Simply by making the Mamba a physically large ship, I think FDev have come perilously close to missing the point of a "racing ship" and the last thing it needs is to add weight to it, even if they then fit bigger thrusters.

I think this is actually a good idea. Size and mass matter little in space, as long as the applicable thrust matches it... just look at the Imperial Cutter. The Mamba is huge and a mass of 300 tons doesn't seem to be over the top, given the fact that the Python weighs 350.

I'd then give it a C5 PP and PDist and knocked at least 50 tonnes off the weight.
That way, you'd end up with a ship that trades power for speed and is otherwise fairly well-balanced against the FdL.

You are joking, right? Trading power for speed? To do what? Run away?

 

[Morbad]

Mine will be tested first in the canyons of Ariel, I want to see how the back follows the front. Being so big should make things very interesting, I'm used to flying those canyons in a Courier!

I took mine to Ariel the other day:

[video=youtube;HkJoHEmbBic]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkJoHEmbBic[/video]

Assassinations

Not quite as good as the FDL or Krait for wing assassination missions (it can solo them, but I'm always cutting it a little close), but it handles more mundane ones (that pay the same) just fine.

Uploading a couple of videos now.

I look forward to fighting one in pvp though, big target, shield heavy, just what my ships are designed to counter. Attrition for the win!

I'm almost done making the three loadouts I find most promising (all hybrids) in the Beta if you want to help me test them.

You don't seem to be understanding what this means.

An "Average" Mamba weighs around 500t.

If the minimum mass of 5A thrusters is 365t, that means you have potential to make a Mamba go faster by removing up to 135t from it's weight - either via outfitting or by FDev deciding to make the hull a bit lighter and/or changing the weight of the armor for it.
The lighter you make the ship, the faster it goes.
This seems reasonable to me.

If the minimum mass of 6A thrusters is 626t, that means pretty-much every Mamba build will be under the minimum mass and be capable of the maximum speed available from the thrusters.
You are, effectively, asking for something that would allow players to throw anything on their ship without compromising it's speed.
It doesn't matter how heavy you make your ship. It still goes the same speed.
This doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Not only does a ship need to be balanced against other ships but it also needs to be balanced against other builds of the same ship too.
A lightweight Mamba needs to be faster than a heavily armored Mamba.

This would not be possible after fitting C6 thrusters.

Completely agree.

Increasing thruster class would be insanity.

 

[Aashenfox]

I took mine to Ariel the other day:





Not quite as good as the FDL or Krait for wing assassination missions (it can solo them, but I'm always cutting it a little close), but it handles more mundane ones (that pay the same) just fine.

Uploading a couple of videos now.



I'm almost done making the three loadouts I find most promising (all hybrids) in the Beta if you want to help me test them.



Completely agree.

Increasing thruster class would be insanity.

I have a war to finish up with tonight, but tomorrow evening is definitely doable and I would love to I also want to give your corvette another go in live, I've learned a lot since the last time. My beta ships seem to be a long way back from what they are today, I hope one is in satisfactory spec.

 

[Morbad]

I have a war to finish up with tonight, but tomorrow evening is definitely doable and I would love to

Sounds good.

Today I finish up engineering and move all my parts in Beta to Shinrarta. This weekend I PvP my way through 1.1 billion cr of rebuys.

I also want to give your corvette another go in live

Has to be in live cause I've cannibalized it for parts in Beta!

 

[Stealthie]

The Anaconda's magical hull bothers me a lot. Harumph. I don't agree that glaring game bugs should be left in just because 'people are in the black'. FD should offer to have them open tickets, get transferred to the bubble and then back to where they were once they've re-outfitted.

And then, on top of that, there's the whole "There's already crazy stuff in the game so it's okay to add more crazy stuff" argument too, which makes me want to bash my head against a wall to make the stupid stop.

Been saying the same thing for ages; it'd be incredibly simple to fix the Annie simply by massively reducing the integrity of the light-alloy hull and then increasing the weight and integrity-boost of optional armors for it.

That wouldn't have any effect on explorers 'cos they're using lightweight alloy hulls and their integrity will already be at zero, after a long while in flight, and it'd mean armored builds would be consistent with similar ships.

And, if there are any nutters out exploring in Annies with mil-armor hulls, FDev could just offer to swap it for a light-alloy hull and put their mil-armor hull in storage.


But, yeah, just cos there's already stupid stuff in the game, that doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of it and it DEFINITELY doesn't mean we should add more stupid stuff.

You are joking, right? Trading power for speed? To do what? Run away?

I built a perfectly reasonable Mamba with a 5A PP and 5A PDist.

If you can't manage that, git gud at ship design.

 

[Morbad]

Couple of standard (non-wing) Elite rank assassination missions:

[video=youtube;a2sEy6ICJe4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2sEy6ICJe4[/video]

[video=youtube;lZD5bJV8eF8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZD5bJV8eF8[/video]

Edit -- a data scan mission for good measure:

[video=youtube;juYMh_q2T-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juYMh_q2T-8[/video]

 

[Cmdr Nemo]

I'm trying to fit one into my fleet and can't see where it fits in?

I already use, Viper, FDL, Krait, Asp, Python, Conda, Cutter, and Corvette, and each have a unique role for me.

How can I make use of a Mamba?

Buy it, rebuild it, try it, see's where it might fit in. If it doesn't, sell it.

 

[Noovae]

Okay so, for those who still wonder what the Mamba's niche is (and others) I decided to run a few tests, timing thrusters performances across a few ships, namely the Clipper, the Mamba, the FdL, and the Phantom (a bit). Of course all tests are made with similar lightweight/max engineered loadouts and internals were simply transfered when possible (between FDL and Mamba mostly).

Below are the results of acceleration/deceleration rates of all four ships:

• Clipper goes from 0% throttle to 100% (507m/s) in ~ 18s / 100% to 0% in ~ 17s.
• Phantom goes from 0% throttle to 100% (422m/s) in ~ 11s / 100% to 0% in ~ 15s.
• FdL goes from 0% throttle to 100% (439 m/s) in ~ 10s / 100% to 0% in ~ 11s.
• Mamba goes from 0% throttle to 100% (524m/s) in ~ 10s / 100% to 0% in ~ 11s.

Conclusion : the Mamba has the best forward / backward thrusters of the four, and probably of all non-small ships. It accelerates so damn fast the Clipper doesn't hold a candle to it. This must be toned down a bit by the fact that every ship accelerates at the same rate (0>100% in ~ 4 s) when boosting is taken into account. Also, this explains why the Mamba has practically no sensible drift despite its amazing speed - braking power. It can come to a stop from maximum speed just as fast as the FdL can, despite being faster, when the Clipper (and also the Phantom) starts to drift like mad near max speed. So the Mamba can do some pretty sharp maneuvers even at top speed, even when boosting, just like the FdL does.

Note: I also compared boosting at 0% throttle and back to 0m/s time between the FdL and Mamba: 18s for both ships. They behave very similarly in a straight line, in fact. But the Mamba is faster.

Second note: using the same 4A charge enhanced PD with both the FdL and Mamba, I found out that the FdL consumed 9 bars out of 10 for 1 boost, when the Mamba only consumed 4/10. This effectively gives the Mamba perma-boost in almost every situation, even with a lightweigth PD, buffing its speed (and agility) even more. I think only the Kraits can do the same.

Now, the results for vertical and lateral thrusters (which are strictly equivalent):

• Clipper goes from 0% throttle to 100% (405m/s) in >> 30s / 100% to 0% in ~ 25s. (... that's terrible.)
• FdL goes from 0% throttle to 100% (350 m/s) in ~ 12s / 100% to 0% in ~ 12s.
• Mamba goes from 0% throttle to 100% (419m/s) in ~ 17s / 100% to 0% in ~ 17s.

Conclusion : here we can see first how the Clipper has actually very poor maneuverability despite having some of the best agility stats on paper, it just can't handle its own speed very well, probably because of its mass. And the FdL actually has better lateral and vertical thrusters than the Mamba this time, but considering the Mamba's speed, its own lateral/vertical thrusters are still pretty good nonetheless.

Lastly, here are the Pitch/Roll/Yaw of the Clipper, FdL and Mamba (DD5 etc) (and Python):

• Clipper: 67,56/135,12/30,40
• FdL: 64,18/152,0/20,27
• Mamba: 45,60/135,12/16,89
• Python: 48,98/152,01/16,89

Conclusion: yeah, on paper, the Mamba doesn't really like to turn around, but it's not that bad either... I mean, er... it rolls like a Clipper, it yaws like a Python, and it pitches like crap, I guess. But, one important thing to consider == perma-boost. A Mamba should never turn without boosting in the first place, because it can, always, with even very few pips in ENG. Making those numbers actually not very relevant in the end.

So, er... What is the Mamba good for? Well, racing, at least, obviously. It definitely is the faster non-small ship in the game, beating the Clipper hands down when it comes to acceleration/deceleration, since you don't want to be boosting with a Clipper in a canyon, ever, for instance, or you'll just crash into the nearest rock. The Mamba doesn't turn easily but when it does, you can be sure it actually goes the way you tell it to, or it will pretty soon, thanks to its low mass and so powerful thrusters. It maneuvers sharply enough despite its amazing speed. It's different, it's fun.

 

[Stealthie]

[stuff]

Great stuff. [up]

I haven't done any specific tests but that's basically how it felt to me too.

There's nothing especially "wrong" with the way the Mamba flies.
The only real problems with it are the heat and it's physical size.

If they get rid of the heat problems entirely then, perhaps, a small boost in speed (possibly via a reduction in weight) would be a reasonable pay-off in return for flying a big ship.
Alternatively, if they leave it with some heat issues, there needs to be a bigger pay-off such as, perhaps, lighter weight and extra internals.

Right now it's inarguably a worse choice than the FdL for combat but with a bit of tweaking it could become a worthy alternative without just being a re-skin of the FdL.

 

[Morbad]

the Clipper has actually very poor maneuverability despite having some of the best agility stats on paper,

It's never been a secret that the Clipper has some of the worst vertical and lateral thrusters in the game, and mediocre non-boost forward/reverse acceleration.

Right now it's inarguably a worse choice than the FdL for combat

Careful with such terms for such broad aspects of the game.

 

[ALEX CAOS]

the forest gump of spaceships

run run

 

[Aashenfox]

Okay so, for those who still wonder what the Mamba's niche is (and others) I decided to run a few tests, timing thrusters performances across a few ships, namely the Clipper, the Mamba, the FdL, and the Phantom (a bit). Of course all tests are made with similar lightweight/max engineered loadouts and internals were simply transfered when possible (between FDL and Mamba mostly).

Below are the results of acceleration/deceleration rates of all four ships:

• Clipper goes from 0% throttle to 100% (507m/s) in ~ 18s / 100% to 0% in ~ 17s.
• Phantom goes from 0% throttle to 100% (422m/s) in ~ 11s / 100% to 0% in ~ 15s.
• FdL goes from 0% throttle to 100% (439 m/s) in ~ 10s / 100% to 0% in ~ 11s.
• Mamba goes from 0% throttle to 100% (524m/s) in ~ 10s / 100% to 0% in ~ 11s.

Conclusion : the Mamba has the best forward / backward thrusters of the four, and probably of all non-small ships. It accelerates so damn fast the Clipper doesn't hold a candle to it. This must be toned down a bit by the fact that every ship accelerates at the same rate (0>100% in ~ 4 s) when boosting is taken into account. Also, this explains why the Mamba has practically no sensible drift despite its amazing speed - braking power. It can come to a stop from maximum speed just as fast as the FdL can, despite being faster, when the Clipper (and also the Phantom) starts to drift like mad near max speed. So the Mamba can do some pretty sharp maneuvers even at top speed, even when boosting, just like the FdL does.

Note: I also compared boosting at 0% throttle and back to 0m/s time between the FdL and Mamba: 18s for both ships. They behave very similarly in a straight line, in fact. But the Mamba is faster.

Second note: using the same 4A charge enhanced PD with both the FdL and Mamba, I found out that the FdL consumed 9 bars out of 10 for 1 boost, when the Mamba only consumed 4/10. This effectively gives the Mamba perma-boost in almost every situation, even with a lightweigth PD, buffing its speed (and agility) even more. I think only the Kraits can do the same.

Now, the results for vertical and lateral thrusters (which are strictly equivalent):

• Clipper goes from 0% throttle to 100% (405m/s) in >> 30s / 100% to 0% in ~ 25s. (... that's terrible.)
• FdL goes from 0% throttle to 100% (350 m/s) in ~ 12s / 100% to 0% in ~ 12s.
• Mamba goes from 0% throttle to 100% (419m/s) in ~ 17s / 100% to 0% in ~ 17s.

Conclusion : here we can see first how the Clipper has actually very poor maneuverability despite having some of the best agility stats on paper, it just can't handle its own speed very well, probably because of its mass. And the FdL actually has better lateral and vertical thrusters than the Mamba this time, but considering the Mamba's speed, its own lateral/vertical thrusters are still pretty good nonetheless.

Lastly, here are the Pitch/Roll/Yaw of the Clipper, FdL and Mamba (DD5 etc) (and Python):

• Clipper: 67,56/135,12/30,40
• FdL: 64,18/152,0/20,27
• Mamba: 45,60/135,12/16,89
• Python: 48,98/152,01/16,89

Conclusion: yeah, on paper, the Mamba doesn't really like to turn around, but it's not that bad either... I mean, er... it rolls like a Clipper, it yaws like a Python, and it pitches like crap, I guess. But, one important thing to consider == perma-boost. A Mamba should never turn without boosting in the first place, because it can, always, with even very few pips in ENG. Making those numbers actually not very relevant in the end.

So, er... What is the Mamba good for? Well, racing, at least, obviously. It definitely is the faster non-small ship in the game, beating the Clipper hands down when it comes to acceleration/deceleration, since you don't want to be boosting with a Clipper in a canyon, ever, for instance, or you'll just crash into the nearest rock. The Mamba doesn't turn easily but when it does, you can be sure it actually goes the way you tell it to, or it will pretty soon, thanks to its low mass and so powerful thrusters. It maneuvers sharply enough despite its amazing speed. It's different, it's fun.

I noticed the last two days, what amazing engines the challenger has. Particularly the engine brakes, would love to see its figures added to your data, along with maybe the chieftain. Thanks for taking the time and trouble.

 

[Noovae]

Great stuff. [up]

I haven't done any specific tests but that's basically how it felt to me too.

Thanks. Yeah, I was really happy to find out the results of my tests mostly went the way I felt they would too: the Mamba has virtually no drift for a ship this big and this fast.

Actually, I thought the mamba was even less drifty than the FdL, and it's not exactly true, but I think I understand why I felt that way. The FdL pitches so much faster than the Mamba that you actually have the time to experience its very small drift. With the Mamba, most of the time, the ship has corrected its trajectory before you can actually point your ship the other way, so you almost don't feel the drift at all, even when it's there. And you always have the possibility to (perma)boost if you really need to correct the trajectory yourself immediately. All of this makes it a surprisingly responsive ship in spite of the horrible pitch/roll/yaw numbers.

Right now it's inarguably a worse choice than the FdL for combat but with a bit of tweaking it could become a worthy alternative without just being a re-skin of the FdL.

Well, probably. Of course it might not be there yet, but I also feel it's actually not that far from being a solid choice. There must be a way to buff it a little without stripping it of its own personality. On that I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, if I were given a choice, I personnaly would "balance" it against the FdL by making it a more interesting choice outside of combat. A bit better fuel tank, one more internal slot, things like that. But that's just because I really love how the ship looks and moves, and I really would like to make it a bit more viable as a traveler/explorer.

 

[who?]

Alternatively, if they leave it with some heat issues, there needs to be a bigger pay-off such as, perhaps, lighter weight and extra internals.

This is the key point for me. I'm perfectly ok with a ship that's quirky/tricky to fly, but only if it has some big advantage in some area.

As it stands, the ship overheats even when un-engineered, adding dirty drives etc would insta-fry it. But without these mods, it's bang average in most areas.

 

[Stealthie]

Careful with such terms for such broad aspects of the game.

It's not something I say lightly.

Right now, personally, I prefer the way the Mamba flies to the way the FdL flies.
I like a ship to be as "neutral" as possible. That's more important to me than outright performance.
I like to know that a ship is going to respond to control inputs predictably. I don't want to be having to correct drifts before it goes where I want it to go.

The point is, despite that, I'd always take an FdL over a Mamba right now because even though there are things which the Mamba does better than the FdL (IMO) they aren't sufficient to make me choose a Mamba over an FdL. Or a Chieftain, or a Vulture, or a Krait.
Name any scenario in the game and I'd rather do it in those ships instead of a Mamba.

That's simply because, despite being a basically decent ship, the Mamba's virtues don't do enough to mitigate it's flaws.

To use yet another car analogy, it's kind of like designing the Ferrari 458 and then fitting it with 145 x 70 tyres.
It can be the best car in the world, and the problem with it can be a fairly trivial one, but until those spindly tyres get replaced it's no use to anybody.

 

[Noovae]

It's never been a secret that the Clipper has some of the worst vertical and lateral thrusters in the game, and mediocre non-boost forward/reverse acceleration.

You're right. But still, I thought it would be fun to compare the Mamba with my favorite ship, and have an objective look at that atrocious drift - which I actually love, since it makes you feel the weight and the speed of the ship. Also, it's the closest contender the Mamba has for the le of fastest combat-ready ship in the game. So now we can see that the Mamba uses its speed in a very different way. They are like two polar opposites. The Mamba has crappy turn rates but great acceleration/deceleration in every direction, and the Clipper is exactly the other way around. It's a fun fact, I think.

I noticed the last two days, what amazing engines the challenger has. Particularly the engine brakes, would love to see its figures added to your data, along with maybe the chieftain. Thanks for taking the time and trouble.

You're welcome. Indeed it would be great to make a full comprehensive spreadsheet sometimes. I'm looking at it right now and I don't think acceleration/deceleration rates and directional thrusters performances are accessible in Coriolis, for instance. Well, it won't be today.

 

[Tifu]

I'm going to ask what may be a stupid question.

Since the Mamba (till now) has the low pip+permaboost ability - how does it perform when you FA-OFF then roll/pitch then boost in a radically new direction? The Viper4 needs a similar manuever to counter it's poorer roll/pitch/yaw stats (as compared to the Viper3) so I was wondering if this applies to the Mamba as well.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

Sexy lines,

Two slice capacity

Defrost setting

Crumpet warming rack

what more do you want?

 

[Azirphaeli]

How can I make use of a Mamba?

Crack two eggs on the dash and boost. Breakfast is served.

 

[Alec Turner]

Coolest looking ship? (note: from certain angles only I'm mildly disappointed to discover).