KILL WILL volume 2

My corvette cost more than a billion.

So what?

How long does it take you to earn a billion credits?
How long is an explorer out in the black, gathering data?
How long does it take to train an Elite SLF jockey?

If all those things can be lost completely as a result of a poor decision, that seems eminently fair to me. [up]

My opinion ...
What is the objective of these streams? To introduce and demonstrate some new game component.
What is NOT the objective? To demonstrate normal gameplay.

Therefore gankers are stopping this goal being achieved. They are most definitely stomping on the objective and spoiling viewers experience. This is THEIR objective - there can be no other point to their activity can there?

Why on earth do FD insist on doing these streams in open? I quit watching after the second gank - it was just wasting my time.

;)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/459361-Suggestion-for-live-streams
 
While a beta is a perfect opportunity for screwing around, I wish folks wouldn't be this boring and predictable.

We could have had 3-5 minutes of hilarity with for example, someone stealing every chunk of mined ore/material from right under Will's nose — or blocking his view with a ship so he couldn't mine at all.
...instead we get 3-5 seconds of the same old same old. :|
Exactly. Does nobody remember ships doing amusing cartwheels in front of Ed's ship in the past? I think one was called "Derek Smart Was Right", which made me lol.
 
This imbalance needs correcting somehow and I'd say no insurance payouts for destruction of Wanted ships would be a good way of applying some balance.
Indeed - station-ramming has been far too ineffective as a means of griefing for years now, and a 20x buff is just what it needs.

The only thing ultra-harsh penalties for murder will do is cause a switch from "attacking people" to "getting them to attack you", be that station-ramming, flying in front of people in a popular RES, or whatever.
 
HAHHAA; I just try to imagine, how someone tells the police, "well you see this guy just was asking for it when he let his car open to be filled with shopping articles. It's really his own fault officer." xD

Sure it's just a game, but the logic of some statements isn't logically better just because it's a game.

Around my area that’s pretty much what the police say. There are signs on lampposts advising you not to leave things on display in your car else it’s liable to get robbed. Basically saying it’s your fault if you do

The problem with many people is they didn’t want to take responsibility for their own actions
 
There was neither ganking nor griefing going on in this stream. Will openly advertised his position in the game and invited players to come and interact with him and one another. Of course some players would take this chance to have a fight, it's just a shame more players didn't also take the chance to protect him and instead took to complaining on the forums.

Whilst this whole buisness isn't something I can get overly emotional about, it is what it is after all, I did raise my eyebrow to the bit I've underlined.
I never realised that when I swat a fly I'm having a fight with it.
 
Indeed - station-ramming has been far too ineffective as a means of griefing for years now, and a 20x buff is just what it needs.

The only thing ultra-harsh penalties for murder will do is cause a switch from "attacking people" to "getting them to attack you", be that station-ramming, flying in front of people in a popular RES, or whatever.

Don't forget, simply becoming Wanted wouldn't mean an you pay for your rebuy.
It'd simply mean that you need to get yourself to an IF, pronto, and pay your penalty.

That'd apply to gankers too, with the result that if they were losing a fight, they could always choose to flee and find an IF to pay their bounty and avoid an expensive rebuy.
In that scenario, however, the target wouldn't be destroyed so it'd be win/win.

And, if people are falling victim to station-ramming, leading to expensive rebuys, complain to FDev and maybe they'll pull their finger out and fix it.

Simple fact is, there IS a huge imbalance in jeopardy between an attacker and their target and something should be done to redress that balance.
 
There was neither ganking nor griefing going on in this stream. Will openly advertised his position in the game and invited players to come and interact with him and one another. Of course some players would take this chance to have a fight, it's just a shame more players didn't also take the chance to protect him and instead took to complaining on the forums.

Gotta say, I didn't really see it that way.

If anything, it just highlighted how lousy wing mechanics are at actually enabling defence.

It's kind of ironic that Will said he was "blown up in 3 seconds" after the first attack when it really took a whole 10 seconds or so.
The third attack, however, did only take about 5 seconds to destroy his T9.

There's no way in hell anybody could have targeted his low-wake, dropped in, deployed hardpoints and targeted his attacker before his ship was dust.

Maybe the game needs some sort of mechanic whereby, if you're within a certain range of a wing-mate and they get interdicted, you automatically drop out of SC into their instance too?
Kind of like how NPCs usually manage to do when you interdict one of a wing of NPCs.
 
So what?

How long does it take you to earn a billion credits?
How long is an explorer out in the black, gathering data?
How long does it take to train an Elite SLF jockey?

If all those things can be lost completely as a result of a poor decision, that seems eminently fair to me. [up]



;)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/459361-Suggestion-for-live-streams

My total assets for three years play are less than 3bn

What you propose is insane and wouldn't be effective anyway, as people would just grief in vultures. Please... Think about it.
 
Then the possibility of having to pay the entire cost of a rebuy should deter you from using your Corvette to attack other players unlawfully.

Job done. [up]

I might sometimes want to attack a player that's clean if they are interfering with my bgs work or stealing my kills in a cz/res.
 
I might sometimes want to attack a player that's clean if they are interfering with my bgs work or stealing my kills in a cz/res.

And that'd be fine.

You'd just have to be prepared to get yourself to an IF afterwards, or if the fight doesn't go your way.
When you're flying a billion-credit Corvette, you get plenty of time to decide if a fight isn't going your way and retreat.

In either case, it wouldn't be an instant billion-credit fine.
It'd simply be the possibility of that which'd add some gravitas to your decision.
 
And that'd be fine.

You'd just have to be prepared to get yourself to an IF afterwards, or if the fight doesn't go your way.
When you're flying a billion-credit Corvette, you get plenty of time to decide if a fight isn't going your way and retreat.

In either case, it wouldn't be an instant billion-credit fine.
It'd simply be the possibility of that which'd add some gravitas to your decision.

Should this be just applied to players or NPC as well?
 
Don't forget, simply becoming Wanted wouldn't mean an you pay for your rebuy.
Well, yes, that was my point. The typical functionally-invincible PvP ship would be able to carry on regardless of what charge would be paid in the hypothetical event of its destruction.

Note that the existing notoriety-based bounty multipliers make it relatively straightforward - since 3.0 - for a habitual killer to run up a permanent bounty that's larger than their ship costs, so effectively on death they would pay a 300% rather than a 5% rebuy. I've seen plenty of people (on the bounty boards) with >100 million bounties on medium ships as a result ... I suspect there are several multi-billion credit bounties out there. Insurance write-offs, indeed.

Has it made any significant difference? Well, we still get threads like this, so I guess not.

(With modern engineering and cash-gaining methods, it's not even that big a penalty for people to occasionally scrap and abandon a ship that's got that much of a bounty on it, either. But you're not going to be very popular suggesting that we should return to 2.0 engineering and cash levels to slow them down...)

And, if people are falling victim to station-ramming, leading to expensive rebuys, complain to FDev and maybe they'll pull their finger out and fix it.
In the real world it can take months for insurers - and sometimes the courts - to sort out liability in the case of a collision between two vehicles. There are real-world car-rammers who use loopholes in the default presumptions around collision liability to make substantial money off insurance fraud and it can take some time for the authorities and insurers to track them down and put a stop to it despite them having a very clear incentive to do so.

And you want Frontier to write an AI routine which can infallibly determine it instantly? With no loopholes? I do respect them as programmers, designers and developers but if they were that good they'd be making billions from government and military contracts, not messing around with a game.

There's a very simple fix for station-ramming, which is "ensure the maximum number of players in an instance is one (1)", and Frontier have already enabled that as an option for all players. Anything else will just change the nature of the problem, not remove it -- as did the initial fix for station ramming, which certainly solved the "people in Cutters keep ramming Sidewinders to death with impunity" problem which was originally complained about.

Maybe the game needs some sort of mechanic whereby, if you're within a certain range of a wing-mate and they get interdicted, you automatically drop out of SC into their instance too?
This is exactly what the existing (since 1.2!) nav lock feature allows you to do. The "certain range" is extremely large, too. You need to time enabling it correctly, but you can be in the interdiction instance within seconds of its creation, just like an NPC.
(Hostile attacking players are well known to use this to get 4:1 odds shortly after interdiction, but it works equally well for defenders)



It seems to me the problem with Open is not "we need feature X" but "people need to be made aware feature X already exists".
 
This is exactly what the existing (since 1.2!) nav lock feature allows you to do. The "certain range" is extremely large, too. You need to time enabling it correctly, but you can be in the interdiction instance within seconds of its creation, just like an NPC.
(Hostile attacking players are well known to use this to get 4:1 odds shortly after interdiction, but it works equally well for defenders)

It doesnt work that well for defenders, usually you are dropped a few hundreds or thousands km away
 
Should this be just applied to players or NPC as well?

Not really sure TBH.

As a rule, I do think there should be penalties specific to PvP (call it a Pilot's Federation thing if you like) but I'm not sure it'd really make much difference in this situation.

Let's face it, the most likely issue regarding NPCs would be negligent-fire resulting in Wanted status.
In that case, a player would just have to sweat a bit, while they made their way to an IF to pay the penalty.
 
It doesnt work that well for defenders, usually you are dropped a few hundreds or thousands km away
This is what I meant by "time enabling it correctly". This is a crucial but not well-known part of the feature, and ideally Frontier would move the drop trigger so that it was on "entering normal space" rather than "leaving supercruise" so that you didn't have to do it this way.

If you have it enabled in advance, the sequence goes:
- interdiction completes
- defender signals supercruise drop to wing
- nav-lock brings you down at defender's current position
- defender transported to attacker's location by interdiction
- you're now in the wrong place

You need to switch it on just after the interdiction completes, the moment the ship you're defending enters normal space. You'll then drop out - instancing handshake allowing - right on their position just a few seconds later.
 
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This is what I meant by "time enabling it correctly". This is a crucial but not well-known part of the feature, and ideally Frontier would move the drop trigger so that it was on "entering normal space" rather than "leaving supercruise" so that you didn't have to do it this way.

If you have it enabled in advance, the sequence goes:
- interdiction completes
- defender signals supercruise drop to wing
- nav-lock brings you down at defender's current position
- defender transported to attacker's location by interdiction
- you're now in the wrong place

You need to switch it on just after the interdiction completes, the moment the ship you're defending enters normal space. You'll then drop out - instancing handshake allowing - right on their position just a few seconds later.

Do you think that would have been sufficient to prevent Will's T9 getting dusted in, literally, 5 seconds last night?

Seems like what should happen is, after joining a wing you can select some kind of "formation" mode and, upon doing that, everybody in the formation automatically rubber-bands together upon interdiction and drops into normal space in the same position.

That, IMO, would have been the only way Will's ship would have stood a chance.

Course, it probably didn't help that he spent most of his time monkeying around with Squadron invites and stoically acting like he didn't care that his ship was getting ripped apart from under him rather than trying to defend himself.
He should probably work on that if he wants to showcase the game in a more positive way.
 
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Do you think that would have been sufficient to prevent Will's T9 getting dusted in, literally, 5 seconds last night?
Certainly not, and nor would an entire team of 16 defenders with station guns appearing instantly at interdiction time. If you don't build your ship to survive five seconds of incoming fire, nothing can possibly save you.

A T-9 with a 8A shield and 3 A-rated shield boosters, unengineered, has about 1350 MJ of base shield versus thermal (its weakest element) with 4 pips in SYS. That level of shielding does not seem unreasonable for a mining T-9 and does not compromise its mining abilities at all - still got a pulse wave scanner, still can have over 400t of cargo space and all the mining optional internals you need including 7 collectors.

With engineering - we can probably assume a real player miner with access to T-9s has got Lei Cheung so G5 shield and G3 boosters - this can be boosted to a ridiculous 3750 MJ versus thermal. Unlock Didi Vatermann (you're going to get Selene Jean easily anyway as a miner!) for G5 boosters and this can go all the way up to an amazing 4500 MJ
(For comparison, my PvP-fit FdL has only 3250 MJ base shield versus its weakest element and can survive an entire wing firing on it for more than long enough to escape)

Judging by the regen spin on his shield (I missed quite a lot of the livestream, so I don't know if the actual module panel was shown) he was actually using the default 6E with no boosters (or similar), which has only 225 MJ versus thermal (with 4 pips) and only 136 MJ with the 2 pips he actually had. Somehow, I think this might have affected his survivability, since a real mining T-9 could relatively easily have had 33 times as many shields.
 
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