State of balancing grandfathered Plasma Accelerators?

[Dietger]

Why not? They are talked about endlessly and rarely seen - they must be legendary.

Which they are and remain, since "fairness" has no place in Elite Dangerous.
In this context it's noteworthy and necessary to understand Elite features no "tiers" like standard MMOs. Only player choisces, working towards your own goals. Which includes developing the best possible modules. So, in this sence its only fair they exist grandfathered.

LOL

PvP in Elite? And Fairness?[wacko] Since when?

The Elite Dangerous I play allows for no obfuscation here: do what you want and face the consequences. With whatever ship, whatever weapon or module. Which mode you like.

Fairness is CQC.


S!

 

[lenna]

Why not? They are talked about endlessly and rarely seen - they must be legendary.

In other MMOs, Legendary kit is typically a level of kit that requires a certain degree of grind to get (anyone can get it with enough time/effort). The legacy engineered kit is part of the deprecated and notionally broken legacy engineering balance and is no longer obtainable. The balance revisions explicitly exclude them being obtainable. Due to the nature of the new balance, FD made the conversion from old to new optional so as to not completely break some builds.

I do not think FD are likely to make the legacy balance obtainable again but in the case of the PAs I can see them perhaps introducing some balance tweaks to maybe some of the special effects (c/f Rail Guns). However, such balance tweaks would not offset the legacy weapon balance concerns which are tantamount to an exploit in effect. Adding some kind of counter balance to bring the edge-case legacy kit in-line with the new kit balance would be the right thing for FD to do IMO.

The Guardian and Experimental weapons/kit are probably a closer analogy to Legendary Kit than the legacy engineered kit.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

In other MMOs, Legendary kit is typically a level of kit that requires a certain degree of grind to get (anyone can get it with enough time/effort)..

Yeah it's actually common then not Legendary. Elite does it right.

 

[lenna]

Yeah it's actually common then not Legendary. Elite does it right.

The situation with ED is not really the same thing.

Legendary kit in other MMOs is typically the ultimate level of tier - in GW2 if I am not mistaken, the legendary stuff is primarily a special skin for regular high end kit. In other games, it may be slightly different but just because something is obtainable with sufficient time and effort does not make it common.

The ED case is more a pragmatic loop hole than an intended balance decision - the fact that some still have some legacy kit should only be considered an issue if that kit is used in PvP combat circumstances - beyond that it's existence is moot.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

Well I can certainly see the problem it imposes upon agreed PVP duels . It's just my vision of a cutthroat, mysterious Galaxy doesn't take that into account.

Roleplay not PVP for me. Respect for your vision - we just don't share it.

At some point since it hasn't been corrected before or in this Beta ( so far ) maybe it is intended design - not a loophole.

 

[lenna]

Well I can certainly see the problem it imposes upon agreed PVP duels . It's just my vision of a cutthroat, mysterious Galaxy doesn't take that into account.

Roleplay not PVP for me. Respect for your vision - we just don't share it.

At some point since it hasn't been corrected before or in this Beta ( so far ) maybe it is intended design - not a loophole.

I have no interest in PvP myself, but some do and that is where the sticking point is. I certainly appreciate the balancing issues in play which is why I support the position that the legacy kit should be nerfed. I personally think the current 3.x engineered PAs are balanced well enough.

I called it a pragmatic loop hole because FD have seemingly endeavoured to achieve/maintain a balance in the combat mechanics - a difficult if not nigh on impossible task with so many conflicting viewpoints on how combat in general should feel. I could have used other descriptive terms for it, but ultimately calling them legendary weapons is giving the situation far too much credit than it deserves.

WRT PvP - agreed duels would not be an issue since the individuals in question would probably agree the kit to be used in advance. In the emergent PvP case, it is more an aberration and depending on FD's view wrt the balance they should address it.

 

[Morbad]

The game doesn't have to be fair.

I absolutely think the game should be fair from the stance of equal player opportunity, even if in-game characters cannot and should not expect this.

Well I can certainly see the problem it imposes upon agreed PVP duels

It doesn't impose a problem with duels because the participants of pitched/staged encounters can always agree to terms beforehand.

Well I can certainly see the problem it imposes upon agreed PVP duels . It's just my vision of a cutthroat, mysterious Galaxy doesn't take that into account.

But your vision of a cutthroat, mysterious Galaxy, takes into account that different characters may be playing by fundamentally different laws of nature? Legacy mods aren't just items of rare or unique properties, they have properties that are impossible under current systems.

Consistent cause and effect is good for any setting, except the deliberately surrealistic, and I'd vastly prefer a retcon than allowing aspects that violate now-universal constants to be grandfathered in.

Roleplay not PVP for me.

Not mutually exclusive.

If I never took on the role of my CMDR, I'd be far less inclined to PvP. After all, it's a game with few consequences to my real-world-self, and few things to be particularly passionate, vengeful, or protective of to me, but that is absolutely not the case for my character.

 

[Dietger]

Greetings Morbad.

Legacy modules were not obtained by an unfair rule set.
Created under equal conditions for all at that time and completely reflecting fundamental game mechanics in par with in-game physics, Frontiers honours diversity and time spend actually playing the game.

For me this legacy is a wonderful thing.
Elite is never finished, so we are likely see more evolving game features in future, some might or might not be in par with what once was.
Founders like me have an advantage over those coming later to the game. Levelling the player field does not require equality to be "fair".

Regards

 

[Ted Striker]

Levelling the player field does not require equality to be "fair".

It kind of does though. You either have to nerf the now unobtainable weapons or buff the current ones or it will forever be unbalanced. You cannot balance engineering when you have old modules that defy the new rules and limitations. Doesn't when it's just something like a frame shift drive with legacy secondaries, but weapons and shields? No, they throw the new balance out the window.

IMO all legacy modules should have been automatically reset to current max G5 (or whichever is highest for it) with no secondaries. That would have avoided the problem even if it did cause anger for a while.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

No, me and you just have different subjective opinions of what "better" means in this context.

For me as a non min-maxer its an overall assessment of engineering V2 condensed into one word, including things like ease of acquisition utility standardization and my lack of reliance on or attachment to individual modules.

For you its just a single on paper stat, which you call "rolls" as you had to grind to get it.

I never mentioned rolls as I never ground at it.

Hahaha!

Ah no, you are just obfuscating.
That is the whole point of this thread.

Are you suggesting a hotter PA you can fire less often is better?

If so, you are just being a fool and saying nonsense.

I even specified "objectively" in the post you responded to.
You're just being dishonest now.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Just see post #440 - the person I responded to (Autoculto) was who my original comment was directed at based on their assertion that the PS4 users did not have a chance to gain access to the OP PAs or other legacy engineered kit.

It is however true that PC, PS4, and XB1 gamers do not spawn with each other.

Regardless of platform(s) it impacts, FD should just nerf the legacy kit in some balanced but not completely capability disabling way and be done with it. It is however IMO a lower priority matter than other things in my books.

Yes I told that poster they were wrong as well.

That doesn't make your statement

On the PS4 it will be a level playing field because you will never spawn with those that have weapons with an unintended balance advantage.

any less false.

 

[Aashenfox]

Legacy modules were not obtained by an unfair rule set.

No, they were created under a DIFFERENT ruleset. That's kind of the point here. The rules changed, but somehow something resultant of those rules remained.

 

[Stigbob]

Hahaha!

Ah no, you are just obfuscating.
That is the whole point of this thread.

Are you suggesting a hotter PA you can fire less often is better?

If so, you are just being a fool and saying nonsense.

I even specified "objectively" in the post you responded to.
You're just being dishonest now.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is of the whole point of this thread, that doesn't make it a compulsory view. Its just your opinion and worth no more or less than anybody elses, unless of course you try to include insults in it in which case its worth a lot less than anyone else's.

 

[lenna]

...

Irrelevant to the discussion in the main though... I do not play on either the XB1 or the PS4 and have no intention of touching either with a multi-Ly long barge pole. The comment was made in response to the other poster - nothing more needs to be said on the matter.

Overall, on the actual topic of this thread - FD should probably just nerf the damage of the older cooler running PAs and be done with it.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

It doesn't matter what your opinion is of the whole point of this thread, that doesn't make it a compulsory view. Its just your opinion and worth no more or less than anybody elses, unless of course you try to include insults in it in which case its worth a lot less than anyone else's.

It's not an opinion.

This whole thread is about objective differences.
It's not about what you "like".

 

[Stigbob]

It's not an opinion.

This whole thread is about objective differences.
It's not about what you "like".

No its based entirely on peoples personal preferences.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

No its based entirely on peoples personal preferences.

No, it's about objective differences and you're just muddying the waters.
That's what those numbers are.

No one cares if you think taking heat damage every time you fire is "better".
That is just dishonest sophistry.

LOL.

 

[Dietger]

.... but somehow something resultant of those rules remained.

.... perfectly good.

 

[Stigbob]

No, it's about objective differences and you're just muddying the waters.
That's what those numbers are.

No one cares if you think taking heat damage every time you fire is "better".
That is just dishonest sophistry.

LOL.

You mistakenly thinking you need grandfathered PA's to avoid taking heat damage every time you fire would explain why you don't understand any of this stuff.

You should try V2 engineers, then you could argue more knowledgably.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You mistakenly thinking you need grandfathered PA's to avoid taking heat damage every time you fire would explain why you don't understand any of this stuff.

That is the result if I took newer PAs compared to my legacy ones, which you say is the better version.

You should try V2 engineers, then you could argue more knowledgably.

LOL!

I have done thousands of G5 mods alone.
My 30+ ships are engineered to current specs, and even my spanking new alt account will have all the engineers (except for the Colonia ones) unlocked soon.

That's why I know that you are being ridiculous.
I know for a fact that the new focused PAs can't touch a good legacy roll.
It's not even close.