The problem with dinosaur sizes

[mysterydiseased]

I know I was just using that as an example, but I pointed out the large amount of dinosaurs they would need to change. I mean look, they even originally said they could NOT (or would not) change the sizes on just a few (giga, spino).

But they aren't going to spend the time to do this stuff, it doesn't even fit in with the system which is why they had decided to make all the armored dinosaurs near the same size to each other. It is for the battle purposes as OP noted.

Like I said, I am one of the people who would very much like that to be done, but they've pleased the majority already with the size changes that were implemented.

Can we just throw the whole combat system away? Would anyone really care... ?

I honestly wouldn't, but...

Since this game is still in "early on-going development" mode, my concern is that as more time goes on and more stuff potentially gets implemented, there may be a point-of-no-return that would make a re-size overhaul impossible. I would say, get it out of the way as soon as possible and then re-work and fine-tune the systems and design around it going forward.

... or, just remove most of the species that aren't even close to accurate size from the game entirely, then we can all see that the game doesn't support as dynamic a roster as it leads many to believe.

 

[Player 99234567]

For many of us, inaccurate sizes are still at or near the top of biggest issues with the base game. The sizes in-game are far from perfectly fine, this is especially apparent with the Ceratopsids, Stegosaurs, and Ankylosaurs/Nodosaurs. What is the difference, other than some stats, between having a Triceratops and a Styracosaurus in your park? Or Ankylosaurus and Crichtonsaurus? Giving accurate dino sizes across the board will make a bigger difference than you would think, when you find that you appear to have much more variety in your selection. Styracosaurus is one of my all-time favorite dinosaurs, and I'll never incubate one knowing that it'll just be Triceratops basically, with the same exact "absolute unit" status, animations, tendencies, and everything else. Same with Chasmosaurus, and many many others.

Our third favoritep) Community Manager, PCrowther, had this to say from the original "problems with dino sizes" thread:

"We've no plans for additional dinosaur resizing. We believe we've made the changes necessary to fit the desires of the vast majority of our community and now is time to focus on what's next for Jurassic World Evolution."

I would be totally content if Frontier issued a statement right now saying that they were halting further development of JWE indefinitely, other than bug fixes, while they go back and focus on giving all of the dinosaurs more accurate sizes, as well as fixing the issues with clipping. But sadly, the developers seem to be under the impression that "more and more dinosaurs (with the exact same copy/paste rigs and animations as existing ones!)" are the way to the big prize. :/

As it stands now, it's greatly disappointing, imo.

making dinosaurs slightly bigger or smaller is not going to change their behavior, magically make them any diferent than other similar species, or change any aspect of the gameplay. For the people who defended hybrids the same can be said about every dino in that these are not nor have ever been meant to be accurate and certainly is not the focus of this game. The dinosaur resize requests seems to be an unending one in that people are never satisfied and are getting over estimates that are not even exact to begin with. If you want changes to the current dinosaurs ask for things that would actually make a difference like behavior changes or if you want something visually different maybe something like special skins for certain dinos.

 

[satch]

Can we just throw the whole combat system away? Would anyone really care... ?

I honestly wouldn't, but...

Since this game is still in "early on-going development" mode, my concern is that as more time goes on and more stuff potentially gets implemented, there may be a point-of-no-return that would make a re-size overhaul impossible. I would say, get it out of the way as soon as possible and then re-work and fine-tune the systems and design around it going forward.

... or, just remove most of the species that aren't even close to accurate size from the game entirely, then we can all see that the game doesn't support as dynamic a roster as it leads many to believe.

No that is more like early access games on steam, or indie games that have not even hit that point yet, they've sometimes thrown everything out the window and started over (prehistoric kingdom)

this is a complete game and expansions and patches are being released. They are almost certainly not going to throw out the entire combat mechanic that is in place, this game is done as it is and only improvements to what is there will be added.

 

[Paul_Crowther]

Dinosaur sizes are in line with the Jurassic World film franchise and based along guidelines from Universal Studios. Outside of the dinosaur size changes made back with the 1.4 update we have no plans for any further dinosaur size changes.

 

[Parritron]

It is a pity that Styracosaurus is not reduced, ceratópsidos in general have almost all the same size. Only Triceratops should be by far the largest followed closely by Sinoceratops and Torosaurus. Stycacosaurus and Chasmosaurus are too big, gigantic. Totally unreal.

Dinosaur sizes are in line with the Jurassic World film franchise and based along guidelines from Universal Studios. Outside of the dinosaur size changes made back with the 1.4 update we have no plans for any further dinosaur size changes.

I understand that it takes a lot of work. However, I think that it is possible to edit models without changing the size. For example, here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/449562-T-Rex-Visual-Overhaul

I think it would be very convenient to edit the current T-Rex model to make it more impressive. A more imposing jaw and eyes like the one of the revision I considered that it would be more precise. This would be done without changing the size. I can say without fear of being wrong that 100% of JWE players prefer this second model of T-Rex.

 

[mysterydiseased]

Dinosaur sizes are in line with the Jurassic World film franchise and based along guidelines from Universal Studios. Outside of the dinosaur size changes made back with the 1.4 update we have no plans for any further dinosaur size changes.

Universal Studios sure have selective guidelines then. There was no problem with delivering a more to-scale Styracosaurus and Kentrosaurus (dinosaurs that have not appeared in the film franchise) back when they licensed Jurassic Park: Operation Genesis to Blue Tongue Entertainment way back. The 'World' brand doesn't change anything. That leaves only a change in the developer, that for some odd reason seems to have prioritized scaling dinos to fit the strange combat system design rather than delivering more on authenticity and fitting the dinosaurs. Not one person throughout this whole process cared to check any of the many documented size estimates that are out there for these animals? That's quite a weird oversight considering what the star attractions are in this game, imo.

When I paid more for the "deluxe edition", I was expecting to have my little-ceratopsid-that-could, Styracosaurus, in game. We somehow got Styroidosaurus.

All that I'm saying is that "dinosaur sizes" requests are going to keep coming around no matter how long it gets ignored or told that their are no plans to make changes. Once the most highly requested and attention-diverting stuff makes it into the game, such as terrain tools and decorations, it's all inevitably (months, or even years later) going to go back to "problems with dinosaur sizes" once the player base has had their fun with all the latest additions.


I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture. :/

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Dinosaur sizes are in line with the Jurassic World film franchise and based along guidelines from Universal Studios. Outside of the dinosaur size changes made back with the 1.4 update we have no plans for any further dinosaur size changes.

Wow, I never thought that even that is laid down.
That's a shame.

 

[mysterydiseased]

If you want changes to the current dinosaurs ask for things that would actually make a difference like behavior changes or if you want something visually different maybe something like special skins for certain dinos.

There were a ton of requests for additional behavior options since launch (such as two T.rexes co-existing), but Frontier thought that it was a brilliant idea to take that feedback and charged players more money if they wanted to have them.

As far as visually different, I'd much rather have more accurately scaled dinosaurs than to have more skin options. The game loses a lot of credibility when Chasmosaurus can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Triceratops. Putting an accurately scaled Chasmosaurus in an enclosure with larger ceratopsids would bring more out of the game because it allows for the creation of more dynamic enclosures/ecosystems.

 

[BionicMeatloaf]

I'm mainly concerned with with dinosaur behaviors, but the sizes bug me a lot too. The issue stands out with Ceratopsids the most. I do not understand making them all so gigantic over their more accurate sizes.

Well no actually I have an idea as to why, it seems like Frontier didn't want or have the time to make different animations for the dinos and so just made them all similar sizes to help mask the insane clipping issues due to some of the animations in the game (like how the ceratopsids can sometimes force choke a T-Rex)

It bugs me immeasurably that they took such an approach, but I have faith that given enough time they'll fix this after they get the big

 

[mysterydiseased]

No that is more like early access games on steam, or indie games that have not even hit that point yet, they've sometimes thrown everything out the window and started over (prehistoric kingdom)

this is a complete game and expansions and patches are being released. They are almost certainly not going to throw out the entire combat mechanic that is in place, this game is done as it is and only improvements to what is there will be added.

Jurassic World: Evolution is still in a pre-early access state as of now. It's just been officially released 2 years pre-mature. It's not too late to go back and make the changes necessary.

 

[satch]

When I paid more for the "deluxe edition", I was expecting to have my little-ceratopsid-that-could, Styracosaurus, in game. We somehow got Styroidosaurus

Not gonna happen in this game, even though they could sometimes make them panic and run away, the Styrac and Kentro would, one on one, get murdered by any large carnivore in JPOG. All dinosaurs are somewhat equal that combat each other in this one.

I just don't get why people expected this to be anything similar to that game, which was very unique in nature as far as zoo sims go, even though this has taken hints from it no doubt. This is a very different game that is never going to be transformed enough to turn into JPOG 2.

There will be people that request a lot of things that will never be done though. You still hear people screaming about aquatics and flyers more than anything else, which annoys me. But a company will do, as long as they are capable of it somehow, what the consumer overall wants the most. So I bet you for sure we will see this in some form.

Jurassic World: Evolution is still in a pre-early access state as of now. It's just been officially released 2 years pre-mature. It's not too late to go back and make the changes necessary.

Lol okay if you say so. But seriously it just was rushed to meet the movie deadline, nothing new there, happens a lot and surely will again. Better than the true movie tie ins that are usually the worst of quality and definitely receive 0 attention after release.

I'm just being realistic about this, I don't think they are going to change anything that is very core of the game. However we have years of updates ahead of us. Even if we never get stuff that we want or wish the game was done different in certain aspects. So at least if we enjoy it decently enough now, it is only going to improve.

 

[mysterydiseased]

I just don't get why people expected this to be anything similar to that game, which was very unique in nature as far as zoo sims go, even though this has taken hints from it no doubt. This is a very different game that is never going to be transformed enough to turn into JPOG 2.

That's because JWE straight ripped off enough of JPOG's working components to get the game released somewhat functional on time. The individual attention to the animals, spirit, essence, and charm of JPOG was left behind. There's priceless value in those things.

You still hear people screaming about aquatics and flyers more than anything else, which annoys me. But a company will do, as long as they are capable of it somehow, what the consumer overall wants the most. So I bet you for sure we will see this in some form.

I think that asking for marine and aquatic themed stuff is asking for way too much. So, I completely agree with you there. The game as it stands now could sure use A LOT more work before those things are ever considered, imo.

I'm just being realistic about this, I don't think they are going to change anything that is very core of the game. However we have years of updates ahead of us. Even if we never get stuff that we want or wish the game was done different in certain aspects. So at least if we enjoy it decently enough now, it is only going to improve.

If this game (which strives for more realistic looking graphics) was about present day animals, would you think that it's a lazy oversight if the Pygmy Hippo and the Hippo were the same size? Or an adult African Lion and Mountain Lion/Puma/Cougar? What reason would you have to incubate a Pygmy Hippo when you've got the accurate sized alternative already there for release? Otherwise, the Pygmy Hippo would come off as just being there to create the illusion that the game supports a large and dynamic roster.

And we have to remember that a lot of kids are playing JWE, and don't know better the size comparison between a Chasmosaurus and a Triceratops, or a Crichtonsaurus and Ankylosaurus. So, they are being greatly mislead if they're not looking this stuff up online or in books, and are not receiving proper authenticity (I don't care that it's JW) going by all the work that the experts around the world have put into these studies over the past century. So, if you think about it, Frontier/Universal are completely disrespecting/not taking into consideration what all of these studies have concluded and it comes off as very lazy because all of the work (like sizes and postures) has already been done for them. It's just not right to take countless people's hard work/efforts and do how you feel like with it, imo.

 

[PCMR4Life]

I always had a feeling that the Brachiosaurus in this game needs to be a bit bigger. Only because I compare it to the Brachiosaurus in that first iconic scene in JP. But then Brachiosaurus might have been too big in that scene. It's not something I would whine incessantly about or obsess over though.

Also I like how people keep throwing around actual measurements for the Dinosaurs. What did you do? Go out in the park with a tape measure and measure all the Dinosaurs?

It's a video game and video games aren't often 100% accurate when scale is involved. It's actually kind of hard. The Dinosaurs in this game are based on the 3D models that Universal provided Frontier with. So I believe they are pretty accurate. Maybe some are a little off. But then again the movies were never really accurate. If they were the Raptors would have been much smaller.


I do wish they had left the Rex alone and just upscaled the other models. I don't think it's really small or anything. But I liked the bog Rex better. Also I wish we could have the JP version and not the JW version. I know the differences are small. But I wish we had the Rex from the prerelease trailers.

 

[Micen Burcke]

Yes !!! Of course !!! Dino's size !! It really does not depend on universal studio dino's size too !!

Look at brachiosaur and mamenchisaur. Their size are really worst.
Brachiosaur really should have to look like higher, also bigger.
Mamenchisaur really should have to look like higher also bigger.

It really should have to do that this game

 

[South Tyrant]

Yes !!! Of course !!! Dino's size !! It really does not depend on universal studio dino's size too !!

Look at brachiosaur and mamenchisaur. Their size are really worst.
Brachiosaur really should have to look like higher, also bigger.
Mamenchisaur really should have to look like higher also bigger.

It really should have to do that this game

I agree!!!

 

[mysterydiseased]

PCMR4Life replied:

The Dinosaurs in this game are based on the 3D models that Universal provided Frontier with. So I believe they are pretty accurate. Maybe some are a little off.

Many are waaayyy off. The in-game Crichtonsaurus, for example, is TWICE the size of real life estimates.

If we look at percentages relative to actual length, it looks about like this:

Crichtonsaurus +102%
Huayangosaurus +89%
Gigantspinosaurus +83%
Chungkingosaurus +80%
Kentrosaurus +60%
Chasmosaurus +56%
Sauropelta +53%
Styracosaurus +45%
Polacanthus +42%
Metriancanthosaurus +33%
Pentaceratops +31%
Ceratosaurus (post-update) +28%
Olorotitan +26%
Troodon +25%
Tsintaosaurus +20%
Giganotosaurus (post-update) +19%

JWE Gallimimus is under-sized by about 30%. For perspective and comparison, the JP Velociraptor (based on Deinonychus from North America) is about +17%. So, the JP Velociraptor, as much as people like to point it out, is far from being the worst offender here in-game.

Look at brachiosaur and mamenchisaur. Their size are really worst.
Brachiosaur really should have to look like higher, also bigger.
Mamenchisaur really should have to look like higher also bigger.

According to measurement numbers of the in-game models, the Brachiosaurus is 18.8 meters length. And according to century's long studies have estimated them to be around 21-26 meters length when fully mature. So yeah, the JWE Brachiosaurus is undersized by up to 38%. That's a lot.

The JWE Mamenchisaurus is actually about right in size with the estimates of its real-life counterpart at 26 meters length. However, the neutral posture in-game is way off, and it could use a bit more mass. There has been at least one even more massive finding that is estimated to be up to 35 meters length.

The recent DLC Dreadnoughtus shares a combination of problems with the two above. It's both way under-sized (by about 38% length), and has incorrect posture. Ideally, we'd like it to stand waaayyy less vertical and have a length of 26 meters (in-game is 18.6 meters) with lots of mass/girth.

Camarasaurus could use a bump up as well. In-game length is 18 meters, but could go as high as 21-23 meters length (almost +22%) if it's based on Camarasaurus supremus.

Diplodocus in-game is 29 meters length, but could be bumped up to 32 meters length (+10%) if based on D.hallorum.

Apatosaurus is ok as far as length goes. It's just that the other giant sauropods are under-sized. Maybe a separate Hammond Creation Lab needs to be designed and added for the game to support super-massive animals... ?

 

[TheMightyMegalosaurus]

A reminder that these animals are based on how they are and how they would be in the films and other Jurassic media. We can argue about their real-life sizes until we're blue in the face but the dinosaurs are not based on real life, they're based on the JP franchise.

 

[mysterydiseased]

but the dinosaurs are not based on real life, they're based on the JP franchise.

I'm no paleontologist by any measure, but... I'm fairly certain that the JP franchise - outside of that one Frankenstein Dilophosaurus - uses references that are based on real life... ?

The JP Velociraptors are beefed up a bit, but all other fully mature animals seen in the films have been depicted pretty close to real life size estimates.

 

[LordTrilobite]

I'm no paleontologist by any measure, but... I'm fairly certain that the JP franchise - outside of that one Frankenstein Dilophosaurus - uses references that are based on real life... ?

The JP Velociraptors are beefed up a bit, but all other fully mature animals seen in the films have been depicted pretty close to real life size estimates.

I agree.

Mostly just the Dilophosaurus that is really a movie monster. The Velociraptors were based on Velociraptor antirrhopus that was renamed to Deinonychus antirrhopus later. In the book the raptors were still called Velociraptor antirrhopus and they only changed it to Velociraptor mongoliensis in the movies. So yeah it's incorrect but it wasn't completely pulled out of the air.
Generally, the original JP film made great strides forward in showing dinosaurs as active animals and being closely related to birds instead of lumbering lizards. For the general viewing audience this was all quite new science. It was also not known at the time that Dromaeosaurids/raptors even had feathers.

So besides the obvious artistic licenses taken here and there. The dinosaurs were actually pretty accurate for it's time. It's just that our understanding of dinosaurs has moved on so much that by now, yes, many of the dinosaurs in JP are quite outdated. But actually up until and including JP3 there were new scientific improvements subtly added to the films, like T.rex living in a family group, the quills on the raptors and even the anatomy and behaviour of Spinosaurus. As far as I know, JP3 was the first instance in popular media that showed the Spinosaurus with it's correct thin croc snout. As far as I know all depictions before that still showed the old incorrect Allosaur-like snout.

And while the first JW did some dumb things like regressing the Stegosaurus back a hundred years with it's drooping tail. JW also made some improvements with new science that was available. The nostril of sauropods was now in the correct place on Apatosaurus near the tip of the snout instead of high up. Baby triceratops with upturned horns. Female Pteranodons with a short crest.


So it's a bit of a mixed bag, and many of the dinosaurs aren't perfect by any stretch. But saying the JP and JW dinosaurs aren't based on real life and are just inaccurate is kinda selling them short.

 

[Leftthisplacebehind477544678865]

No, the book goes out of its way to specify the park's raptors are mongoliensis, Grant even goes "I just dug up antirhopus back in Montana" to differentiate. And even if they were Deinonychus, they're still freakishly oversized movie monsters and they were so already at the time.

The 'dinosaurs in the original were accurate for its time' is hogwash. That line is only true comparative to contemporary dinosaur fiction. Yes, it was one of the first movies to follow the dinosaur rennaisance, but that still puts it decades behind.