Modes Powerplay open-only

[Agony_Aunt]

Also, just to clarify my position on the whole topic, at this point i'm more or less in the don't care camp. Unless FD change PP signficantly, its not something i'm interested in. I'm not interested in a never ending grind to stay in the same place week in, week out.

To be honest, i think it might be funny to watch what would happen should PP go OO. I'm fairly convinced what some people imagine will happen will not come to pass. I think there would be massive reduction of PvEers taking part and therefore less hauling going on, leaving mainly the PvPers to pew-pew against each other while their powers' borders collapse around them. I could be wrong of course.

But as i've said elsewhere, if FD do make PP OO, then i think they should either:

a) Provide two BGS with separate saves, where one only has Open mode. The other BGS continues as is. Those who want Open Only can have Open Only BGS, Community Goals, PP, Exploration, etc. They would be completely divorced. Giving them in theory what they have been wanting (except, it won't be what they have been wanting, since without the PvEers they won't get what they want).

OR

b1) Go ahead, make PP Open only but...
b2) Compensate PG/solo players for the loss of the feature by providing a PG/solo only feature, for example NPC wingmen.
b3) and remove all traces of PP from PG/solo. I mean ALL traces. No PP NPCs, no powerplay effects on prices, no black markets opening and closing (so only in Open will you see black markets opening due to the presence of Archon), no Li Yong discounts, and if you have powerplay ranks from Open they don't affect anything in PG/solo.

Either variant would suit me just fine.

However, i don't think either is likely to happen, perhaps about as likely as FD making PP OO.

A third option is FD massively rework PP to make it a PvP only activity. Remove all the hauling elements, remove the effects of NPC kills. Make everything count on PvP kills. Except that also has it own problems. Would be totally exploitable. We know PvPers are competitive, and you can guarantee some people would run multiple accounts or collude with friends, and just blow up their other accounts or friend ships over and over again for massive merits.

 

[Bashy81]

Im not a PvPer, im a Powerplayer. A tiny fraction of a % of my game time has been spent PvP, and even then it has always without exception been driven by PP reasons.
Ive been pledged to my power for 94 weeks, rank5 most of that time.

I wholeheartedly support the proposed changes to Powerplay, which included OpenOnly as change number 8.

Many of the other contributors in favour of these changes I know, well enough to know they are similar types of players to myself. Powerplayers first, other things a distant last. They haul merits, they BGS systems, coordinate objectives, and support their comrades. Ive done as many explorer-escorts & fuel-rat-runs (purely within my power) as I have combat wings.

This is the kind of players you are arguing against. Powerplayers, not some bogeyman notion you may have of PvPers.

The original PP mechanics have played out to their conclusions, and one thing that has been seen ad nauseum is solo&PG are where min/maxers go to fully exploit gameplay imbalances. They are not all 'cheats', they are people playing a strategy game as effectively as they can. The rest of us who are more interested in the sustainability and quality of the experience, do it with one arm tied behind our backs.
Its the Meatloaf dilemma.

Powerplayers want their gamestyle dragged out of the dumpster, and people characterising it as the olde Modes argument, & revenge of the evil sociopath PvPers, are doing a fine job of strangling a dedicated & constructive part of the playerbase.

Strip away all the agitprop and walls of strawmen from the Open-is-PPOO brigade and behind it theres hardly a genuine powerplayer among them. Mostly its a debating club & a pre-Sumo salt flinging footstampy thing. Forum ghosts playfighting an ancient ritual. But do remember while you have your fun, that many of the people you are shouting down are out there doing all the PP things for hours every week. For them it is not idle speculation, they see it in action, and not, every day.

What was I on about again? Oh yeh. Ignore one or two edgecases calling for all-the-things open. ED is a game with room for everyone, and Powerplay with solo/PG attached and its current mechanics is a game for exploiters and botters and thats what weve ended up getting.

Ps. Im advocating Open Only Powerplay

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Don't see it happening any time soon. If they were going to do it I would of thought they would have dropped it a week before Sandro was 'repositioned' so he can act as bullet sponge for the rest of the team for any critical comments.

As this didn't occur I can't see them doing it within the next 6mnth as they have just recently aquired some serious competion in the space game genre and they will not be looking to upset any customers.

If it ever happens, I really don't see it coming soon and if you search my history of the FF debate you will see I heavily berated them for leaving such a decision 'hanging' but FD are who they are.[noob]

 

[Havvk]

OK... go look at Sandro's PP post that tore this issue wide open...

Look at how many said, "Make BGS Open Only!"

Look at how many times FDev said the BGS would NOT be Open Only that it was only Power Play that was being considered.

Look at how many STILL demanded FDev, "Make BGS Open Only!"

Look at FDev pull back from even considering making Power Play Open Only.

Now people now say FDev gave no answer? The answer was pretty clear to me.

They gave answers and people STILL demanding they do things differently... so no matter what FDev says the issues will still come up because some can't take a NO as an answer.

This. As I myself have tried to say before, They won't quit until they either get their way and kill this game to move on to something else, or they quit and this game is all the better for it

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Im not a PvPer, im a Powerplayer. A tiny fraction of a % of my game time has been spent PvP, and even then it has always without exception been driven by PP reasons.
Ive been pledged to my power for 94 weeks, rank5 most of that time.

I wholeheartedly support the proposed changes to Powerplay, which included OpenOnly as change number 8.

Many of the other contributors in favour of these changes I know, well enough to know they are similar types of players to myself. Powerplayers first, other things a distant last. They haul merits, they BGS systems, coordinate objectives, and support their comrades. Ive done as many explorer-escorts & fuel-rat-runs (purely within my power) as I have combat wings.

This is the kind of players you are arguing against. Powerplayers, not some bogeyman notion you may have of PvPers.

The original PP mechanics have played out to their conclusions, and one thing that has been seen ad nauseum is solo&PG are where min/maxers go to fully exploit gameplay imbalances. They are not all 'cheats', they are people playing a strategy game as effectively as they can. The rest of us who are more interested in the sustainability and quality of the experience, do it with one arm tied behind our backs.
Its the Meatloaf dilemma.

Powerplayers want their gamestyle dragged out of the dumpster, and people characterising it as the olde Modes argument, & revenge of the evil sociopath PvPers, are doing a fine job of strangling a dedicated & constructive part of the playerbase.

Strip away all the agitprop and walls of strawmen from the Open-is-PPOO brigade and behind it theres hardly a genuine powerplayer among them. Mostly its a debating club & a pre-Sumo salt flinging footstampy thing. Forum ghosts playfighting an ancient ritual. But do remember while you have your fun, that many of the people you are shouting down are out there doing all the PP things for hours every week. For them it is not idle speculation, they see it in action, and not, every day.

What was I on about again? Oh yeh. Ignore one or two edgecases calling for all-the-things open. ED is a game with room for everyone, and Powerplay with solo/PG attached and its current mechanics is a game for exploiters and botters and thats what weve ended up getting.

Ps. Im advocating Open Only Powerplay

Would you be willing to entertain a separation of servers then (Open Only becomes a separate server/BGS from the existing Open/PG/solo) or support the removal of all traces of PP from PG/solo along with PG/solo getting their own unique features?

 

[znôrt]

ED is a game with room for everyone, and Powerplay with solo/PG attached and its current mechanics is a game for exploiters and botters and thats what weve ended up getting.

this is the crux of the issue, and wether or not these restrictions to pp would be a solution or a positive change at all is unknown, but it seemed a fair attempt with little to loose. if it weren't shouted down, that is. of course it was anybody's right to do so but i just hope they did out of genuine interest for gameplay in general or powerplay in particular. otherwise it would just be sad.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Many of the other contributors in favour of these changes I know, well enough to know they are similar types of players to myself. Powerplayers first, other things a distant last. They haul merits, they BGS systems, coordinate objectives, and support their comrades. Ive done as many explorer-escorts & fuel-rat-runs (purely within my power) as I have combat wings.

This is the kind of players you are arguing against. Powerplayers, not some bogeyman notion you may have of PvPers.

The original PP mechanics have played out to their conclusions, and one thing that has been seen ad nauseum is solo&PG are where min/maxers go to fully exploit gameplay imbalances. They are not all 'cheats', they are people playing a strategy game as effectively as they can. The rest of us who are more interested in the sustainability and quality of the experience, do it with one arm tied behind our backs.
Its the Meatloaf dilemma.

Actually, i want to pull you up about the parts i've quoted. On the one side you diminsh the negative elements of those who are playing in open wanting "fair" powerplay. On the other hand, you (to my mind) blow up the negative side of those playing in PG/solo.

You say they are not all cheats (and i'd hope not, only botters are cheating, and they could bot equally well in open) and those that are not cheating are playing the game as desgined, and presumably most of them with no ill intentions. They are just beavering away, working for their power, just the same as you claim to be doing and others like you.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

if it weren't shouted down,

That's a rather negative way to say people who have issues with OOPP expressed their opinions. The OOPP advocates have done their fair share of shouting as well.

I agree there is little to lose with trying it, but by the same token, if PG/solo is to lose something, then i think its only fair they get something to compensate that loss.

Or, as i've suggested many times now, spin off a separate server for Open only advocates, let them have what they want, and everyone else gets what they want. Don't talk about a fragmented playerbase, its already fragmented anyway.

 

[Havvk]

That's a rather negative way to say people who have issues with OOPP expressed their opinions. The OOPP advocates have done their fair share of shouting as well.

I agree there is little to lose with trying it, but by the same token, if PG/solo is to lose something, then i think its only fair they get something to compensate that loss.

Or, as i've suggested many times now, spin off a separate server for Open only advocates, let them have what they want, and everyone else gets what they want. Don't talk about a fragmented playerbase, its already fragmented anyway.

Actually working CQC into the main game as a part of PP through conflict zones maybe(hint hint cough cough ala Dust514 but better support) would be a good start

 

[Bashy81]

Would you be willing to entertain a separation of servers then (Open Only becomes a separate server/BGS from the existing Open/PG/solo) or support the removal of all traces of PP from PG/solo along with PG/solo getting their own unique features?

TBH it sounds like a Filibuster designed to prevent anything getting done. Maintenance and Dev cost for either all-new features or an entire server infrastructure duplicate seems a bit rich. All the powerplay proposal called for was a tweak to existing game mechanics, so a number of fdev departments (art & sound design etc) would need much less involvement than for any new features. However, TL;DR: if its a reasonably balanced trade-off then im all for it.


Ill post a link to the proposal I keep banging on about in case anyone is wondering or would like a refresh, turns out I could use that too, Open Only is the 9th change listed, not 8th like i said earlier.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/426940-Powerplay-Proposal


I cant imagine frontier would entertain splitting the modes. The workload overheads would surely be horrendous, and I cant imagine the multiverse strife would be any less divisive than the mode strife we have now.
So if taking PP open-only needs a trade-off, then in my mind at least, that just leaves Solo/PG content as an option. What would that be like? Could it replace the powerplay GUI elements with something else people might appreciate? If so, what? and what could it be that wouldn't exacerbate the open/solo BGS issues?

The final point about removing all traces of PP from solo, well, for me that would be shame. I spent my first year in-game exclusively in Solo mode. Id decided ED would be my solo game that id take at my own pace with as little outside input as possible. I wanted to figure it out for myself as I went & it was irrelevant to me if that meant I was any quicker or slower or more or less effective than anyone else. Once id got hold of that one last 'next better ship' I knew I wasnt done with the game, but needed something to maintain my interest, and wanted something to actually do with the little fleet id built up.

Without the in-game references, I might have never found my way to powerplay or realised there was an endgame that suited me, at least.

But if it narks people that references to a game feature they dont have access to (for whatever reasons) are there, then it seems a reasonable balance to remove all traces, and if possible replace them with something else, especially if that something else is better suited to the Solo game experience. But again, what could that be?!

 

[Bashy81]

Actually, i want to pull you up about the parts i've quoted. On the one side you diminsh the negative elements of those who are playing in open wanting "fair" powerplay. On the other hand, you (to my mind) blow up the negative side of those playing in PG/solo.

You say they are not all cheats (and i'd hope not, only botters are cheating, and they could bot equally well in open) and those that are not cheating are playing the game as desgined, and presumably most of them with no ill intentions. They are just beavering away, working for their power, just the same as you claim to be doing and others like you.

Its a reasonable point. Id referred not to Open players & solo/PG players, but specific groups of people. I didnt mean to slur whole populations, and I dont think I did that. One group I referred to were: many of the contributors to threads such as this, who are in favour of Open Only Powerplay, and who I know. The other group was: min/maxers who go to Solo/PG in order to fully exploit gameplay imbalances.

Anyone who I either dont know very well or who dont deliberately leverage exploits in solo/PG, may consider themselves excused from any sweeping generalisations, with my apologies.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

TBH it sounds like a Filibuster designed to prevent anything getting done. Maintenance and Dev cost for either all-new features or an entire server infrastructure duplicate seems a bit rich. All the powerplay proposal called for was a tweak to existing game mechanics, so a number of fdev departments (art & sound design etc) would need much less involvement than for any new features. However, TL;DR: if its a reasonably balanced trade-off then im all for it.


Ill post a link to the proposal I keep banging on about in case anyone is wondering or would like a refresh, turns out I could use that too, Open Only is the 9th change listed, not 8th like i said earlier.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/426940-Powerplay-Proposal


I cant imagine frontier would entertain splitting the modes. The workload overheads would surely be horrendous, and I cant imagine the multiverse strife would be any less divisive than the mode strife we have now.
So if taking PP open-only needs a trade-off, then in my mind at least, that just leaves Solo/PG content as an option. What would that be like? Could it replace the powerplay GUI elements with something else people might appreciate? If so, what? and what could it be that wouldn't exacerbate the open/solo BGS issues?

The final point about removing all traces of PP from solo, well, for me that would be shame. I spent my first year in-game exclusively in Solo mode. Id decided ED would be my solo game that id take at my own pace with as little outside input as possible. I wanted to figure it out for myself as I went & it was irrelevant to me if that meant I was any quicker or slower or more or less effective than anyone else. Once id got hold of that one last 'next better ship' I knew I wasnt done with the game, but needed something to maintain my interest, and wanted something to actually do with the little fleet id built up.

Without the in-game references, I might have never found my way to powerplay or realised there was an endgame that suited me, at least.

But if it narks people that references to a game feature they dont have access to (for whatever reasons) are there, then it seems a reasonable balance to remove all traces, and if possible replace them with something else, especially if that something else is better suited to the Solo game experience. But again, what could that be?!

Yes, i'm aware of that set of proposals, but it does contain the open only suggestion, and that is the main sticking point for many. The other suggestions are a lot less controvertial.

I also don't think they will entertain splitting the modes, but who knows? I don't think they will go through with making PP OO either, but maybe they will.

 

[Siobhan]

I'm still surprised the a third group doesn't yet exist. Am I really alone in that I'm generally would prefer OOPP, but just say it won't work with ED's network structure? At least not in a way most OOPP supporters who have some sort of blockades in mind are dreaming about. If you really want OOPP you'll need to realize that a great number of opponents will still be invisible to you, even though they now are 'forced' to play in Open. And once you realize that, the next step would be the question: "in light of that, why even bother and not rather leave it the way it is?"

Open Only ANYTHING is a slippery slope that can only lead to more and more forum salt.
Even the mere suggestion of it has caused almost as much salt as the whole Salome debacle and the Cobra Mk IV combined.

 

[Lestenio]

Open Only ANYTHING is a slippery slope that can only lead to more and more forum salt.
Even the mere suggestion of it has caused almost as much salt as the whole Salome debacle and the Cobra Mk IV combined.

Open only is fine, so long as it's sold as open only. Otherwise as you say it's a slippery slope.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Open only is fine, so long as it's sold as open only. Otherwise as you say it's a slippery slope.

Sure. For example, if they created a territorial game that ran off PvP, then it would more or less have to be open only. Problem with anything PvP related, its totally exploitable as it can allow players to collude or run multiple accounts to "win".

 

[Goose4291]

Sure. For example, if they created a territorial game that ran off PvP, then it would more or less have to be open only. Problem with anything PvP related, its totally exploitable as it can allow players to collude or run multiple accounts to "win".

Best to turn pve mechanics off as well then, just in case.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Best to turn pve mechanics off as well then, just in case.

If you are talking about exploiting, PvE exploits can be patched. PvP exploits are a tad harder if we are talking about two players colluding.

 

[Mouse]

You need to try a bit harder. Powerplay came post-release.



Where?

Limited PVP has been a part of the game since the beginning. I was not refering to Power Play as Power Play is not a limited PVP feature, currently it is a no PVP feature (unless they added merits finally and I missed it or forgot it) ... so no I didn't need to "Try a bit Harder".


As for Where... Znôrt quickly found it for you. Thank you Znôrt

this is the crux of the issue, and wether or not these restrictions to pp would be a solution or a positive change at all is unknown, but it seemed a fair attempt with little to loose. if it weren't shouted down, that is. of course it was anybody's right to do so but i just hope they did out of genuine interest for gameplay in general or powerplay in particular. otherwise it would just be sad.

I will disagree because I don't think it was shouted down. As referenced before, I think that the behavior of some in not even settling for the idea of Power Play being Open Only but continuing to hammer and badger that BGS needs to be Open Only as well was the nail in Power Play being Open Only's coffin.

Fdev was considering giving a meter and a faction kept demanding kilometers.

 

[bigity]

Actually working CQC into the main game as a part of PP through conflict zones maybe(hint hint cough cough ala Dust514 but better support) would be a good start

Nobody cares about CQC. At all.

 

[Mouse]

Ok, Mr. nobody...

If they are looking for Nobody.. he's tied underneath the sheep.