Modes I know I'm beating a dead horse, but we need official PvE servers

[Havvk]

Yes, you're absolutely right, there is a lot more to Elite than just fighting with other players and it all can be easily done in open. Ok maybe not the Robigo run and collecting mats at davs hope can be a little sketchy in open but I run cargo in open all the time with zero issues and I'm on many, many kill on sight lists.

You might be on such lists. But again, many will go to any length to never be on such a list. Some people are not fighters, and they don't like having to even think about acting like they are going to be in one.

Proper exploration ships, for example, cannot afford the room for shields up the wazoo as it is all taken by science things such as scanners, maybe cargo racks for collecting thargoid/guardian items for experiments with the new anomalies. Proper trading vessels cannot afford room for armor, they barely have the room for shields just strong enough to protect them from fender benders. They have to have cargo racks, otherwise what good is a trader ship if it has more combat equipment than logistics equipment?

 

[AP Birdman]

You might be on such lists. But again, many will go to any length to never be on such a list. Some people are not fighters, and they don't like having to even think about acting like they are going to be in one.

Proper exploration ships, for example, cannot afford the room for shields up the wazoo as it is all taken by science things such as scanners, maybe cargo racks for collecting thargoid/guardian items for experiments with the new anomalies. Proper trading vessels cannot afford room for armor, they barely have the room for shields just strong enough to protect them from fender benders. They have to have cargo racks, otherwise what good is a trader ship if it has more combat equipment than logistics equipment?

First of all you missed my point. The fact that I'm on KOS lists means that I am targeted far more than some random Joe. Not only do I have other griefers that come after me, I also have "good guy" players coming after me as well and I NEVER have problem with other players when I'm doing non PvP things in open.

I'm sorry Havvk but your argument for weak builds a weak one. I have a 55ly Krait ii with 200 mjs and no armor that I fly around all the time and I have never been blown up by a player in it.
I also have an Anaconda that I use for engineering that has 65ly jump range and 400 mj of shields that also has never been blown up by a player.
Despite the many excuses I've heard it's extremely easy to survive in open.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Cool, as its 'really easy' to survive in open I hope we will hear no more of 'mode specific' bonuses then or how open should earn more/effect BGS more because of difficulty.

 

[AP Birdman]

Cool, as its 'really easy' to survive in open I hope we will hear no more of 'mode specific' bonuses then or how open should earn more/effect BGS more because of difficulty.

I was just contributing to the conversation, giving my opinion on what I would think would be an ok way to implement an open pve server in the current state of the game but I still think that it's silly and unnecessary because surviving in open is extremely easy.

Sorry if you missed some of my other post or if my points have gone completely over your head.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Its was just a aside to point out that the risks of open seem to vary from thread to thread depending on what the poster is trying to prove.

In threads asking for a open bonus, open is the most dangerous hair raising mode to fly in requiring razor sharp reflexes and honed skills.

In threads tying to encourage others into open or dispel myths about open, explain why we don't need other modes etc. it becomes a cake walk where everyone is friendly and loses are entirely optional.

I suggest it cant be both and is probably somewhere in between.

 

[00nutzy]

Its was just a aside to point out that the risks of open seem to vary from thread to thread depending on what the poster is trying to prove.

In threads asking for a open bonus, open is the most dangerous hair raising mode to fly in requiring razor sharp reflexes and honed skills.

In threads tying to encourage others into open or dispel myths about open, explain why we don't need other modes etc. it becomes a cake walk where everyone is friendly and loses are entirely optional.

I suggest it cant be both and is probably somewhere in between.

As with most erm.. discussions.. on these forums they attract lots of extreme opinions and observations, so yeah its somewhere between the two extremes.

There have been lots of ideas put forth to make PvP more inviting to the traditionally non-PvPer. Such as giving both sides some kind of gain for being involved such as the voucher idea. Reducing the costs of rebuys, offering some kind of cargo/data insurance, or making defensive weapons for the traders.
Balance the rolls of ships add more logical downsides as well as upsides for the extreme engineering.

Making specific powerplay missions/objectives around PvP, ( I think Ziggy had ideas on that) making power to power conflict give some reward other than credits but punish indiscriminate killing while engaged in those PP activities. Would probably require lots of thought to prevent exploiting but still a decent idea.

However when things are brought up they get shouted down (by a minority but they are loud) and nothing develops from them.

More on topic the idea of an Open PvE mode sounds nice but what would the cost be to the rest of the game? Would people who are happily playing in open (the majority according to at least one developer) leave their preferred mode simply because it was easier? But if thats the case why are they in open in the first place?

I feel pretty certain no such mode will exist in this game if for no other reason its possible it could further fragment the game (not that it would but it could)

 

[Jockey79]

....

More on topic the idea of an Open PvE mode sounds nice but what would the cost be to the rest of the game? Would people who are happily playing in open (the majority according to at least one developer) leave their preferred mode simply because it was easier? But if thats the case why are they in open in the first place?

Exactly.

An Open PvE Mode would hardly touch the current population of the Open PvP Mode.
Because those who don't want PvP, are not in Open PvP anyway.

So it's a flawed argument and utter bull manure to say an Open PvE would ruin Open PvP.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Its was just a aside to point out that the risks of open seem to vary from thread to thread depending on what the poster is trying to prove.

In threads asking for a open bonus, open is the most dangerous hair raising mode to fly in requiring razor sharp reflexes and honed skills.

In threads tying to encourage others into open or dispel myths about open, explain why we don't need other modes etc. it becomes a cake walk where everyone is friendly and loses are entirely optional.

I suggest it cant be both and is probably somewhere in between.

Due to how instancing “works,” when you play and where you are can drastically affect your experience in Open. For example, when my starting time at work changed from 7AM to 5AM, I ended most most sessions before my local prime time. Before my shift change, I would’ve described the rate of random attacks as “at worst, irritatingly frequent.” Afterwords, I have described the frequency of same type of attack as, “Wait. You’re maneuvering to interdict me? Yay! Let’s play!”

Two different times to play. Two vastly different experiences in Open.

Which is why I’ve always said, if you want PvP to play a bigger role in Powerplay or the BGS, or even in general, it’s the PvP that should be rewarded, not the mode you play in. The hard part, of course, is how to detect and minimize the effects of collusion between players.

 

[AP Birdman]

As with most erm.. discussions.. on these forums they attract lots of extreme opinions and observations, so yeah its somewhere between the two extremes.

There have been lots of ideas put forth to make PvP more inviting to the traditionally non-PvPer. Such as giving both sides some kind of gain for being involved such as the voucher idea. Reducing the costs of rebuys, offering some kind of cargo/data insurance, or making defensive weapons for the traders.
Balance the rolls of ships add more logical downsides as well as upsides for the extreme engineering.

Making specific powerplay missions/objectives around PvP, ( I think Ziggy had ideas on that) making power to power conflict give some reward other than credits but punish indiscriminate killing while engaged in those PP activities. Would probably require lots of thought to prevent exploiting but still a decent idea.

However when things are brought up they get shouted down (by a minority but they are loud) and nothing develops from them.

More on topic the idea of an Open PvE mode sounds nice but what would the cost be to the rest of the game? Would people who are happily playing in open (the majority according to at least one developer) leave their preferred mode simply because it was easier? But if thats the case why are they in open in the first place?

I feel pretty certain no such mode will exist in this game if for no other reason its possible it could further fragment the game (not that it would but it could)

I completely agree with all your points but I really think the biggest thing Fdev could ACTUALLY do to help with opens "griefing" problems is give pvpers something to do. Keep them distracted, fighting with each other over a big juicy bone and they won't be bothered to mess with players in their cargo ships or exploration ships.

If they could figure out a way to encourage and incentivize consensual PvP and discourage attacking players in unarmed ships it would make open a much friendlier place to be and would be a huge step forward for Elite as a whole.
A pve open server would just be a step backwards and would only help to further divide the player base.

 

[Havvk]

First of all you missed my point. The fact that I'm on KOS lists means that I am targeted far more than some random Joe. Not only do I have other griefers that come after me, I also have "good guy" players coming after me as well and I NEVER have problem with other players when I'm doing non PvP things in open.

I'm sorry Havvk but your argument for weak builds a weak one. I have a 55ly Krait ii with 200 mjs and no armor that I fly around all the time and I have never been blown up by a player in it.
I also have an Anaconda that I use for engineering that has 65ly jump range and 400 mj of shields that also has never been blown up by a player.
Despite the many excuses I've heard it's extremely easy to survive in open.

No you don't get it. I understand what you're talking about, and you're right.

But the thing is, it's about the average joe. Not everybody even has the calm to not panic the instant they are tethered in an interdiction, let alone once they're in realspace. Some people just outright refuse to touch solo, or PG on the sole basis as (for me, and my personal opinion) solo is lonely and PG is kinda useless as I only have but a handful of friends on whom I can reliably play with; except wildly varying time zones and sleep schedules will not allow us all to constantly be able to play together consistently based on that fact. Also having a PG when I only just have so few friends, it's basically solo anyway. With this in mind, Open is (our) only option of having the best of everything. I can understand on trying to build for protection and all.

I know it's a video game, but come on. This isn't mad max, or medieval ages where taking the dirt road gets you being constantly mugged by big bag brigand highwaymen. This world takes place in the dawn of the 3300's, where we JUST now basically have a god-medicine-cure-all drug(that nanomed thing in galnet) and the all known diseases as we know are all but ancient history. There is no need for all this scary boogeyman brigand kind of crap in any form of civilized space. Ganking in low sec or anarchy space, is to me that is, far more acceptable (in-game and lore-wise) than seeing hoardes of Elite ranked Commanders just wiping out ships in droves while in "High Security" space that's policed with government and military and all that kind of stuff. Point is, most PvP is just far too jarring and immersion breaking due to its pure oversaturation in actions such as ganking and all that.

Hell, Pirates shouldn't even exist period deep in Empire/Federation space. That would make way better sense in Alliance space as they aren't a real cohesive and unified space nation, it's more like a space united nations at best.

 

[Goose4291]

One of the problems Goose is that when those words (hiding etc) are thrown around they it appears they are being thrown at the entire user base, clarity of intent is not present, especially in this thread.

I agree, but even if you try to be clear on your usage, people still want to wade in and use it as an excuse to be offended and then usr it as a platform to start the moral high ground rant from.

Its odd how a lot of the people who have issue with the term 'hiding' are the first to happily slander any pirates, powerplayers, RPers, general open player or anyone else who wants to deploy hardpoints on a player as a griefer, sociopath, neckbeard, socially ill adjusted indivdual with a 'one size fits all' brush.

Proper exploration ships, for example, cannot afford the room for shields up the wazoo as it is all taken by science things such as scanners, maybe cargo racks for collecting thargoid/guardian items for experiments with the new anomalies. Proper trading vessels cannot afford room for armor, they barely have the room for shields just strong enough to protect them from fender benders. They have to have cargo racks, otherwise what good is a trader ship if it has more combat equipment than logistics equipment?

I'm sorry, but as an open mode trader, and former open only powerplay merit runner, Im going to say thats nonsense. You dont need to fill every module slot with survivability options to survive the short time you need to high/low wake out of a given situation. You just need to make some sort of concession to survivability beyond plonking the lowest class D-rated shield your hull can get away with.

Its was just a aside to point out that the risks of open seem to vary from thread to thread depending on what the poster is trying to prove.

In threads asking for a open bonus, open is the most dangerous hair raising mode to fly in requiring razor sharp reflexes and honed skills.

In threads tying to encourage others into open or dispel myths about open, explain why we don't need other modes etc. it becomes a cake walk where everyone is friendly and loses are entirely optional.

I suggest it cant be both and is probably somewhere in between.

The nuance is in the type of conversation we're having at the time.

If someone starts a thread for example about how theyre insta-popped every time they undock, and death is a certainty, whereas Im flying my adder in same (if not worse) situations and walking away 80-90% of the time, of course Im going to point out that its not the insta death scenario the OP is describing and suggest they review their tactics and build.

Whereas, if we're having a discussion about the inherent risks of powerplay in open vs other modes that meeting organised resistance is going to bring, naturally I'm going to highlight the increased difficulty/risk encountering a player brings.

Which is why I’ve always said, if you want PvP to play a bigger role in Powerplay or the BGS, or even in general, it’s the PvP that should be rewarded, not the mode you play in. The hard part, of course, is how to detect and minimize the effects of collusion between players.

I agree, however any such suggestion will be shouted down with the same anti-change 'all modes equal' (when they never have been) rhetoric.

 

[AP Birdman]

No you don't get it. I understand what you're talking about, and you're right.

But the thing is, it's about the average joe. Not everybody even has the calm to not panic the instant they are tethered in an interdiction, let alone once they're in realspace. Some people just outright refuse to touch solo, or PG on the sole basis as (for me, and my personal opinion) solo is lonely and PG is kinda useless as I only have but a handful of friends on whom I can reliably play with; except wildly varying time zones and sleep schedules will not allow us all to constantly be able to play together consistently based on that fact. Also having a PG when I only just have so few friends, it's basically solo anyway. With this in mind, Open is (our) only option of having the best of everything. I can understand on trying to build for protection and all.

I know it's a video game, but come on. This isn't mad max, or medieval ages where taking the dirt road gets you being constantly mugged by big bag brigand highwaymen. This world takes place in the dawn of the 3300's, where we JUST now basically have a god-medicine-cure-all drug(that nanomed thing in galnet) and the all known diseases as we know are all but ancient history. There is no need for all this scary boogeyman brigand kind of crap in any form of civilized space. Ganking in low sec or anarchy space, is to me that is, far more acceptable (in-game and lore-wise) than seeing hoardes of Elite ranked Commanders just wiping out ships in droves while in "High Security" space that's policed with government and military and all that kind of stuff. Point is, most PvP is just far too jarring and immersion breaking due to its pure oversaturation in actions such as ganking and all that.

Hell, Pirates shouldn't even exist period deep in Empire/Federation space. That would make way better sense in Alliance space as they aren't a real cohesive and unified space nation, it's more like a space united nations at best.

Wow, I actually completely agree with you again. Did I enter some kind of weird dimension or something?

I think you're right about a player interdiction being jarring and intense to a player experiencing it for the first couple times but that doesn't mean random Joe should just give up and declare open full of griefers.
However I do think it is kind of ridiculous that players have to go to youtube to watch a tutorial on how to escape a player interdiction. Fdev really needs to add a tutorial like that to the codex or something.

On your other point, I think you're exactly right about it being immersion breaking and making no sense. But instead of Fdev just giving players a pve server they should address all of those things and like I said in my post above yours, give pvpers a reason to shoot at each other instead of at unarmed ships.

When I say I'd like to see the game go open only, all these things would have to be fixed first. There would need to be some kind of guaranteed way that pve-ers could do their thing in peace before such a thing could be implemented.

I just want us to be one big happy family in one mode where we can all play the way we want to play and enjoy each other's company.

 

[Dietger]

Due to how instancing “works,” when you play and where you are can drastically affect your experience in Open. For example, when my starting time at work changed from 7AM to 5AM, I ended most most sessions before my local prime time. Before my shift change, I would’ve described the rate of random attacks as “at worst, irritatingly frequent.” Afterwords, I have described the frequency of same type of attack as, “Wait. You’re maneuvering to interdict me? Yay! Let’s play!”

Two different times to play. Two vastly different experiences in Open.

Which is why I’ve always said, if you want PvP to play a bigger role in Powerplay or the BGS, or even in general, it’s the PvP that should be rewarded, not the mode you play in. The hard part, of course, is how to detect and minimize the effects of collusion between players.

Beside all the tech stuff and time, I suspect the platform your on is a major factor here as well.

 

[Havvk]

I'm sorry, but as an open mode trader, and former open only powerplay merit runner, Im going to say thats nonsense. You dont need to fill every module slot with survivability options to survive the short time you need to high/low wake out of a given situation. You just need to make some sort of concession to survivability beyond plonking the lowest class D-rated shield your hull can get away with.

If you're going to skimp so hard on your defenses, why bother having them at all?

 

[AP Birdman]

If you're going to skimp so hard on your defenses, why bother having them at all?

To survive a player interdiction. All you need is enough to survive the fsd cool down, pick a system to jump to and charge your fsd.

My cargo cutter has 1800 hull and 2000mjs but can still haul 720 cargo. I could seriously tear someone up if anyone ever pulled me but no one ever has : (

 

[Marra Morgan]

Proper exploration ships, for example, cannot afford the room for shields up the wazoo as it is all taken by science things such as scanners, maybe cargo racks for collecting thargoid/guardian items for experiments with the new anomalies. Proper trading vessels cannot afford room for armor, they barely have the room for shields just strong enough to protect them from fender benders. They have to have cargo racks, otherwise what good is a trader ship if it has more combat equipment than logistics equipment?

This is a nonsense.

My own exploration and trading ships carry enough defences to allow me a good chance for a high-wake escape if I'm attacked. My exploration ship doesn't have to compromise on any exploration equipment and my trade ship sacrifices a cargo slot for a decent shield - rebuys cost much more than the smidge of profit I'm giving up for it.

 

[Darkfyre99]

No you don't get it. I understand what you're talking about, and you're right.

But the thing is, it's about the average joe. Not everybody even has the calm to not panic the instant they are tethered in an interdiction, let alone once they're in realspace. Some people just outright refuse to touch solo, or PG on the sole basis as (for me, and my personal opinion) solo is lonely and PG is kinda useless as I only have but a handful of friends on whom I can reliably play with; except wildly varying time zones and sleep schedules will not allow us all to constantly be able to play together consistently based on that fact. Also having a PG when I only just have so few friends, it's basically solo anyway. With this in mind, Open is (our) only option of having the best of everything. I can understand on trying to build for protection and all.

I know it's a video game, but come on. This isn't mad max, or medieval ages where taking the dirt road gets you being constantly mugged by big bag brigand highwaymen. This world takes place in the dawn of the 3300's, where we JUST now basically have a god-medicine-cure-all drug(that nanomed thing in galnet) and the all known diseases as we know are all but ancient history. There is no need for all this scary boogeyman brigand kind of crap in any form of civilized space. Ganking in low sec or anarchy space, is to me that is, far more acceptable (in-game and lore-wise) than seeing hoardes of Elite ranked Commanders just wiping out ships in droves while in "High Security" space that's policed with government and military and all that kind of stuff. Point is, most PvP is just far too jarring and immersion breaking due to its pure oversaturation in actions such as ganking and all that.

Hell, Pirates shouldn't even exist period deep in Empire/Federation space. That would make way better sense in Alliance space as they aren't a real cohesive and unified space nation, it's more like a space united nations at best.

The setting of Elite has always been a Cyberpunk one. We have corporations that have more power than most governments, slavery is common throughout the galaxy... though in the Federation they're called employees of a corporate state. Life is cheap, power is concentrated in the hands of a few, and a criminal cabal manipulates the fortunes of of an entire galaxy for their own fun and profit.

That cabal is the Pilot's Federation.

It's always amused me that in such a Cyberpunk setting, instead of playing the plucky anti-hero who can barely make a living who's stumbled upon the latest horrific plot concocted by a corrupt executive of the NGO that actually rules their city, we play as members of that NGO.

Bottom line is that this is a video game, and dysfunctional settings allow for interesting gameplay. Frontier allow for an amazing amount of player agency in this game. Through BGS manipulation, we can start wars, plagues (I think... we could under the old BGS at least), and famines for whatever reason we want to: in support of a faction, in opposition of a faction, for our own profit, or simply for our own amusement. We have the option of killing whoever we want to, with few consequences that are easily avoided.

Sure, Frontier could've made a Utopian setting where there's no slavery, no NGOs manipulating things overtly or covertly, no wars, disease, and famines, where everyone had access to life saving and preserving medicines like progenitor cells or the new nanomeds, peace between the Federation and the Empire, and all criminal activity easily thwarted or even prevented before it happens. But that would be a very boring game IMO.

 

[Darkfyre99]

This is a nonsense.

My own exploration and trading ships carry enough defences to allow me a good chance for a high-wake escape if I'm attacked. My exploration ship doesn't have to compromise on any exploration equipment and my trade ship sacrifices a cargo slot for a decent shield - rebuys cost much more than the smidge of profit I'm giving up for it.

^^^

This.

Shields cost you only one slot and make sense in any build, while Armor, Thrusters, Power Distributors, and Power Plants are core slots, so the only thing they cost you is jump range... and if you're in a "hurry" while exploring, the time you lose due to jump range can be made up by Buckyballing it. All my ships are engineered to run cool, allowing me to start the jump while still scooping fuel without much fear of internal damage.

edit: And when I'm trading, I always Buckyball it. The time I save is worth a few hundred credits of heat damage, and is miniscule compared to the possibility of a rebuy.

Plus, when I'm out exploring, I leave my Imperial Courier at a small, low traffic system equipped for data running: fast and maneuverable, with as many shields, shield boosters, and shield banks as I can carry. That data is important, and I'm not about to lose it because I'm I can't be bothered to swap ships once I'm near the Bubble.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

BIG SNIP




any such suggestion will be shouted down with the same anti-change 'all modes equal' (when they never have been) rhetoric.

Is it not the same for any suggestion of a extra mode at no apparent cost to open? People have taken entrenched positions and you cant expect one side to give if the other remains intractable.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

^^^

This.

Shields cost you only one slot and make sense in any build, while Armor, Thrusters, Power Distributors, and Power Plants are core slots, so the only thing they cost you is jump range... and if you're in a "hurry" while exploring, the time you lose due to jump range can be made up by Buckyballing it. All my ships are engineered to run cool, allowing me to start the jump while still scooping fuel without much fear of internal damage.

edit: And when I'm trading, I always Buckyball it. The time I save is worth a few hundred credits of heat damage, and is miniscule compared to the possibility of a rebuy.

Plus, when I'm out exploring, I leave my Imperial Courier at a small, low traffic system equipped for data running: fast and maneuverable, with as many shields, shield boosters, and shield banks as I can carry. That data is important, and I'm not about to lose it because I'm I can't be bothered to swap ships once I'm near the Bubble.

It boils down to the only people NOT having to compromise their builds are the murder-hobo's, hell they don't even fit viable FSD nowadays; feels a little one-sided.