Why is Combat still a Low Paying High-Risk activity?

OP, we've reached the point that shows the difference between 'I understand what you're saying' and 'I understand what you're saying and don't care.'

But maybe the real issue is that combat's reward for a lot of players has never really been about 'credits per hour' but rather 'skill per hour.' You seem to be focused on credits per hour, which is fine I suppose, but probably helps explain a lot of the friction in this thread.

Sometimes the thing itself is the reward, you know?
 
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OP, we've reached the point that shows the difference between 'I understand what you're saying' and 'I understand what you're saying and don't care.'

But maybe the real issue is that combat's reward for a lot of players has never really been about 'credits per hour' but rather 'skill per hour.' You seem to be focused on credits per hour, which is fine I suppose, but probably helps explain a lot of the friction in this thread.

Sometimes the thing itself is the reward, you know?

I guess I'm not old fashioned. (which I thought I was...)

"The treasure was in us all along" and "The Journey was friendship" isn't really my outlook when someone puts time and effort into something (even when they're good at it).
I play fallout where I get rewarded for breathing dang-near, so maybe I'm spoiled. :D I'll agree with that!
 
Pirate MM's for the win. There was a CG about 6 weeks ago in Maia, comfortably smashed 1 bil in a week by gathering MM's in a nearby system before each run - try Hip 20277 as I used to do the same out of there regularly

Re: combat outfitting been more expensive. When was the last time you died to an NPC? Doesn't matter what your rebuy is if you never have to pay it?
 
I guess I'm not old fashioned. (which I thought I was...)

"The treasure was in us all along" and "The Journey was friendship" isn't really my outlook when someone puts time and effort into something (even when they're good at it).
I play fallout where I get rewarded for breathing dang-near, so maybe I'm spoiled. :D I'll agree with that!

I play STALKER, where I have to count how many bullets I have because they might weigh me down too much to escape the sky itself killing me. Being alive for longer than 20 minutes in a row without reloading a save is a major victory. Fallout looks and plays great, but without decent modding for real danger and risk at higher levels, the rewards in that game eventually become embarrassing and pointless.

In Elite, if the journey isn't the real reward, you are doing a very convoluted version of pressing the "plus" button on a calculator. There's really only Pretend Spaceman here.
 
Pirate MM's for the win. There was a CG about 6 weeks ago in Maia, comfortably smashed 1 bil in a week by gathering MM's in a nearby system before each run - try Hip 20277 as I used to do the same out of there regularly

Re: combat outfitting been more expensive. When was the last time you died to an NPC? Doesn't matter what your rebuy is if you never have to pay it?

I understand that but the same can be said about any other activity. I'm trying to keep my own personal experience out of the matter and looking at it from the logical perspective of a video game. A videogame has to be balanced. If you're getting rewarded more for doing less than what's the point of doing more?

Yeah I could argue that combat gets more easier as you go along and so it can pay less, but that means every activity in the game needs to get nerfed because the same rules apply? You know?
 
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I play STALKER, where I have to count how many bullets I have because they might weigh me down too much to escape the sky itself killing me. Being alive for longer than 20 minutes in a row without reloading a save is a major victory. Fallout looks and plays great, but without decent modding for real danger and risk at higher levels, the rewards in that game eventually become embarrassing and pointless.

In Elite, if the journey isn't the real reward, you are doing a very convoluted version of pressing the "plus" button on a calculator. There's really only Pretend Spaceman here.

Well, I'm not really looking at payout itself, more the balance in pay.

being completly honest, if the payout across the board where to be nerfed, I would still want the combat to be balanced to terrible credits the others gain.
 
Well, I'm not really looking at payout itself, more the balance in pay.

being completly honest, if the payout across the board where to be nerfed, I would still want the combat to be balanced to terrible credits the others gain.

My complete honesty is that I don't care at all about that kind of balance, because there are no profession hats in Elite keeping your fingers outten the various pies. If you need monies, go where the monies are, and fund your favourite activities with the tons of moneymaking things if your favourite activities are burning up your credit reserves. Any profession restrictions are purely up to the player, not the game.

I don't want various things to pay nothing at all (I remember 2014 when that was true), but if most of them pay decently, that's good enough for me. They don't need to be rated by a credit bureau to ensure they're all totally comparable.
 
“It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.”

Robert E Lee
The Battle of Fredericksburg (13 December 1862)
 
Because
I'm looking at all the professions and I'm really happy that most jobs in the game have gotten some meat on their bones in terms of payout but what about Combat? With the risks that combat it brings, surely the combat community should get some fat wallets as well.



I've played this game for the past 3 years and
Never in Elite Dangerous have I seen a "gold rush" on combat missions or anything combat oriented compared to the other professions.
Never in Elite Dangerous have I seen someone get rich purely off of combat without the help of other professions but have seen vice versa.
Never in Elite Dangerous have I seen a new player jump into combat as a means of getting credits unless a part of a wing.
(sadly enough, the only thing that kept combat players "well fed" were the stackable combat missions... but we all know what happened to that)



BUT! That's not to say that every patch hasn't involved Combat In the general sense, but what's the point of having the best and shiniest tools for a S*** Paying Job? Especially when the S*** Paying Job is high-risk and the tools are the most expensive and/or tedious to get than the ones of the other, lower-risk jobs?


Heck, most of the enginners in the game are Combat Focused and they require combat players to do non combat oriented activities in order to unlock them.


I've only seen combat players use "gold rush" trade, passenger, and now, mining methods to upgrade their Combat ships. This system "forces" combat players to take part in activies they wouldn't normally do in order to get a substantial amount of money to upgrade their ships. This, in turn, also deters them from doing these activites willingly in the future.
Then they explain their grievances and get told to "play another game" by those in other professions that are doing what they love and getting paid well to do it.

(edited for clarification) I'm hoping this is making sense. Combat players don't need new tools, they had enough tools 2 years ago. Combat Players need better pay to keep them occupied in their High-Risk activites and that means being on par in pay with the rest of the activites. This includes PVP as well but that's a different beast.


Also, why aren't there any combat missions/USSs to fight ships planetside? like wars and such next to a planetary base or canyon?

Because with FD the funner the activity the less it will pay.
 
LOL

A bunch of combat veterans come in and disagree with your premise then you start arguing about costs using the Cutter as a baseline.

Some people don't agree with you. It's ok. Really, it is. But I for one am done taking your post seriously. :D

I don't see any combat veterans disagreeing with him. I don't think a combat veteran ever would. I do however see a lot of can't-think veterans and insecurities. Not sure what the point is. Why not wait till actually knowing about something before talking about it? What is there to be so afraid of that one would come in here and foolishly play make-believe?

And honestly, who's going to take you seriously if you're not even paying attention to context? What makes you think anyone cares who you're taking seriously?

The argument that difficult tasks should pay slightly more than less difficult tasks always comes from those who want to get paid more for challenges. It's that simple. They want motivation to step up their game. If one disagrees, they simply want the opposite.
 
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Combat is high-risk due to the rebuy cost (that's a fact)

Risk is penalty combined with the odds of that penalty being inflicted. Neither small, frequent penalties, nor virtually unheard of, extreme penalties, constitute much in the way of risk.

The odds of seeing a rebuy in PvE combat for someone vaugely experienced in combat, who isn't deliberately trying to maximize risk, is essentially zero.

I'll just enjoy being poor..?

60-70% of my CMDR's lifetime earnings come from combat and he doesn't feel particularly poor to me. I suppose he is in relative terms, but he's also way past the point where credits are significantly valuable.

I don't see any combat veterans disagreeing with him. I don't think a combat veteran ever would.

How many thousands of CMDRs and tens of thousands of NPCs does my CMDR have to shoot down before he's an ED combat veteran again?

The argument that difficult tasks should pay slightly more than less difficult tasks always comes from those who want to get paid more for challenges. It's that simple. They want motivation to step up their game. If one disagrees, they simply want the opposite.

I do think it makes sense for difficult tasks to command higher wages, but don't agree that doing something difficult should automatically command a reward. I can do all sorts of very difficult real world tasks (wiggle my ears, while moving DOS drivers/TSRs into the optimal HMA segment to maximize free conventional memory, and reciting obscure AD&D trivia, all simultaneously, for example) that, no matter how proud I am of my hard-earned abilities, command a zero wage because they are things no one particularly needs done or gives a damn about. Same premise would apply to a significant portion of combat in ED...wanting to look for a fight is one thing, expecting someone to pay top dollar for you to do so is quite another.

My main gripe is with the idea that most combat, when in a combat focused vessel, especially PvE stuff, in ED is difficult or risky. By the time one's CMDR is well regarded enough to command a decent wage for combat, one should have the skills to eliminate it's risks, as they currently are.

In any case, credits aren't a motivation for my CMDR to step up his game. Add another zero to the end of his bank balance and nothing changes for me or him. The existence of more credible threats, and not purely inflationary ones, would be a far better motivation.

You think you're some kind of combat pro and don't see what the risk is about.

You don't even need to be particularly good at combat. Even in the case of PvP, which we well know is phenomenally more risky than fighting NPCs, everything is slanted in favor of survival...someone who doesn't want to get shot down is going to escape the overwhelming majority of the time, even when heavily outnumbered by clearly superior pilots in clearly superior vessels. For every CMDR I've shot down, twenty have escaped via various methods. For every PvP fight where I've lost a ship I've successfully fled from hundreds more...at least on live, where I'm playing a character who isn't suicidal.

I think the last NPC fight (where I wasn't deliberately handicapping myself) where I came close to losing a ship was back in 1.1 or early 1.2 when I was in a 'gold trap' USS that spawned eight Vultures against my lone Viper Mk III.

Maybe the perception of risk is greater for those who always insist on fighting until they or their enemies have been destroyed, or those who habitually phone in their gameplay while distracted with something else...but that's not a risk intrinsic to the gameplay.
 
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There are a number of things being considered facts in this thread that just aren't true.

Combat is not the activity that carries the most risk in this game - that crown belongs to long voyage Exploration. At no time in Combat or Trade are you risking days/weeks/months of time and progress every single time you log in. Unless, of course, you are the imbecile that only turns in vouchers every few months, or the other imbecile that flies a ship with a rebuy in the tens of millions on an income of 2 million credits per session. Even then, a death in Combat or Trade costs you minutes, but a death in Exploration can cost you weeks, months, or even years. It's not even close, man.

The Outfitting cost for taking part in any of the three pillars at a meaningful level is similar enough that it's not worth griping about. The gap widens as you get towards the higher end of whichever pillar you are pursuing, which is as it should be. Unless you are suggesting that the cost to Outfit a flying gas can for maximum Exploration and an Ultimate Death Machine for Combat should be the same? I hope you aren't suggesting that.

Combat does pay well if you are good at it. This includes knowing what ship(s) to use, what to do, and where/how to do it, just like the other two pillars. You seem to lack this knowledge despite playing the game for as long as you claim, and I would submit that perhaps this is coloring your perception.

I'm not sure that I've ever met a Commander who likes every single facet of this game. As such, I would say that every single Commander has to do things they don't really want to do, and jump through some hoops to achieve whatever goals they have set for themselves. Combat pilots are not unique in this regard. That said, Combat pilots do indeed get the shaft when it comes to Engineering as a whole, especially in terms of needed materials.

Riôt
 

sollisb

Banned
OP, we've reached the point that shows the difference between 'I understand what you're saying' and 'I understand what you're saying and don't care.'

But maybe the real issue is that combat's reward for a lot of players has never really been about 'credits per hour' but rather 'skill per hour.' You seem to be focused on credits per hour, which is fine I suppose, but probably helps explain a lot of the friction in this thread.

Sometimes the thing itself is the reward, you know?


Last time I check one of Amy accounts, I had 1.9bn in bounty claims. I'm sure others have more, but never-the-less, never at any point did I kill for anything but credits. For sure I enjoy combat, but I do it for credits. Not a worthy reward? I aint doing it. Same same for any of the other facets of the game. If you're not paying me I'm not doing it.

But then, I'm also personally credit orientated. I write game-add ons and sell them, while others do it for free. Neither of us right. The difference is, I can drive a very nice car, have some very nice watches (my other past-time) and have very healthy bank balances.

My motto in business has always been, 'show me the money'. I get that some players are happy to float along getting paid pittance, and in my view, they are also the players that cry the most when someone else is making a fortune doing something that goes against their chosen play-style.

I don't care how others play, it does not effect my game-play or my game decisions. And it certainly doesn't effect my fleet or my accumulating billions. So to close up, if something pays more I'll do it. I'll find the most efficient way, and then do it that way. If that involves me using 2 or more accounts, then fine, I'll do that. But if something is paying low, then I simply ignore it.

Combat in HazRez has been nerfed since 3.3, and now Mining is 'the in thing' paying huge amounts compared to anything else. It's even out paying some of my volley boom missions :(. So after testing last night, later, I will look at building the optimal ship and the optimal process to make more credits.

There is nothing else in Elite to strive for. When I reach a stage of can't have more ships, I'll probably stop playing.

Whose right? No-one. It's your game play it how you want. Just don't tell me, 'the thing itself is the reward'. It may be for you, but then, I don't care about you. I care about me. No offence intended there, just saying it how I play it.

o7
 

sollisb

Banned
There are a number of things being considered facts in this thread that just aren't true.

Combat is not the activity that carries the most risk in this game - that crown belongs to long voyage Exploration. At no time in Combat or Trade are you risking days/weeks/months of time and progress every single time you log in. Unless, of course, you are the imbecile that only turns in vouchers every few months, or the other imbecile that flies a ship with a rebuy in the tens of millions on an income of 2 million credits per session. Even then, a death in Combat or Trade costs you minutes, but a death in Exploration can cost you weeks, months, or even years. It's not even close, man.

The Outfitting cost for taking part in any of the three pillars at a meaningful level is similar enough that it's not worth griping about. The gap widens as you get towards the higher end of whichever pillar you are pursuing, which is as it should be. Unless you are suggesting that the cost to Outfit a flying gas can for maximum Exploration and an Ultimate Death Machine for Combat should be the same? I hope you aren't suggesting that.

Combat does pay well if you are good at it. This includes knowing what ship(s) to use, what to do, and where/how to do it, just like the other two pillars. You seem to lack this knowledge despite playing the game for as long as you claim, and I would submit that perhaps this is coloring your perception.

I'm not sure that I've ever met a Commander who likes every single facet of this game. As such, I would say that every single Commander has to do things they don't really want to do, and jump through some hoops to achieve whatever goals they have set for themselves. Combat pilots are not unique in this regard. That said, Combat pilots do indeed get the shaft when it comes to Engineering as a whole, especially in terms of needed materials.

Riôt

That is entirely untrue. Exploration is the safest in the game, Heck you can explore without shields and a lot of peeps do. That you elect to stay away form cash-in for weeks on end is a choice.

Which imbecile stays away for years?

Costs? How much is an Explorconda? How much is an Anaconda combat platform?

Combat pays well if you're good at it and do it often/long enough. It in no way is comparable to Exploration. If you are trying to insinuate that every jump you make in Exploration is a risk, then I'll just laugh. Yet every time you engage in combat is a ship risk.

I know I am not saying they should post the same, which is why, the player paying most and thereby risking the most, should get rewarded the most.

Jumping around like fly and pressing your honk button is not risk.
 
Whose right? No-one. It's your game play it how you want. Just don't tell me, 'the thing itself is the reward'. It may be for you, but then, I don't care about you. I care about me. No offence intended there, just saying it how I play it.

They deem me mad because I will not sell my days for gold; and I deem them mad because they think my days have a price.

Yet every time you engage in combat is a ship risk.

No, generally not.

the player paying most and thereby risking the most, should get rewarded the most.

Why?
 

sollisb

Banned
Risk is penalty combined with the odds of that penalty being inflicted. Neither small, frequent penalties, nor virtually unheard of, extreme penalties, constitute much in the way of risk.

The odds of seeing a rebuy in PvE combat for someone vaugely experienced in combat, who isn't deliberately trying to maximize risk, is essentially zero.


60-70% of my CMDR's lifetime earnings come from combat and he doesn't feel particularly poor to me. I suppose he is in relative terms, but he's also way past the point where credits are significantly valuable.



How many thousands of CMDRs and tens of thousands of NPCs does my CMDR have to shoot down before he's an ED combat veteran again?



I do think it makes sense for difficult tasks to command higher wages, but don't agree that doing something difficult should automatically command a reward. I can do all sorts of very difficult real world tasks (wiggle my ears, while moving DOS drivers/TSRs into the optimal HMA segment to maximize free conventional memory, and reciting obscure AD&D trivia, all simultaneously, for example) that, no matter how proud I am of my hard-earned abilities, command a zero wage because they are things no one particularly needs done or gives a damn about. Same premise would apply to a significant portion of combat in ED...wanting to look for a fight is one thing, expecting someone to pay top dollar for you to do so is quite another.

My main gripe is with the idea that most combat, when in a combat focused vessel, especially PvE stuff, in ED is difficult or risky. By the time one's CMDR is well regarded enough to command a decent wage for combat, one should have the skills to eliminate it's risks, as they currently are.

In any case, credits aren't a motivation for my CMDR to step up his game. Add another zero to the end of his bank balance and nothing changes for me or him. The existence of more credible threats, and not purely inflationary ones, would be a far better motivation.



You don't even need to be particularly good at combat. Even in the case of PvP, which we well know is phenomenally more risky than fighting NPCs, everything is slanted in favor of survival...someone who doesn't want to get shot down is going to escape the overwhelming majority of the time, even when heavily outnumbered by clearly superior pilots in clearly superior vessels. For every CMDR I've shot down, twenty have escaped via various methods. For every PvP fight where I've lost a ship I've successfully fled from hundreds more...at least on live, where I'm playing a character who isn't suicidal.

I think the last NPC fight (where I wasn't deliberately handicapping myself) where I came close to losing a ship was back in 1.1 or early 1.2 when I was in a 'gold trap' USS that spawned eight Vultures against my lone Viper Mk III.

Maybe the perception of risk is greater for those who always insist on fighting until they or their enemies have been destroyed, or those who habitually phone in their gameplay while distracted with something else...but that's not a risk intrinsic to the gameplay.

I agree with most of what you say. I agree that this is how you pay and perceive your game. Others are different.

I for example am credit focussed. Everything I do revolves around risk vs reward. I don't bring a Viper to the HazRez, I bring a Cutter. I want to kill fast and efficiently. I have no interest in zoom-zoom mechanics, I am focused on killing and earning. I do this is favour of mining and exploration and trading, because I like combat. When in the army I looked at the most efficient way to suppress risk, gain an advantage and ultimately put the opposition down. Fast. A pencil through the ear is way more efficient than a knife in the gut.

And I carry that over to most things I do. I fix mechanical watches. I learn the layout of the movement and then the efficient way to strip it down, fix whatever is needed, oil it and build it back to it's proper condition. For doing that, I demand a reward. The reward is based on the work needed and the risk that I might the whole thing up. Unlikely, I know the watches inside out, but.. I might fall victim to tiredness or whatever, and make a mistake. So by charging premium, I give myself wiggle room, for this with or the next.

The same for combat in Elite. For sure, I can decimate, but there have been times when 'whoah!' wakey wakey Ben!

And if you are using combat like me as your main earner, then you need high rewards. Oh I can go do the road to riches, or plan 10 nights trading, or I can do my combat as it is and supplement it well formed mission strategies to maximise my earning while lowering my risk.

You are not wrong. Neither am I. But combat pay.. Is a joke in comparison to other facets, in my opinion.
 
Everything I do revolves around risk vs reward. I don't bring a Viper to the HazRez, I bring a Cutter. I want to kill fast and efficiently. I have no interest in zoom-zoom mechanics, I am focused on killing and earning. When in the army I looked at the most efficient way to suppress risk, gain an advantage and ultimately put the opposition down. Fast. A pencil through the ear is way more efficient than a knife in the gut.

And I carry that over to most things I do. I fix mechanical watches. I learn the layout of the movement and then the efficient way to strip it down, fix whatever is needed, oil it and build it back to it's proper condition. For doing that, I demand a reward. The reward is based on the work needed and the risk that I might the whole thing up

Did you expect to be paid more for the same job simply because you happened to use a more expensive tool? Is there some sort of style bonus in the army for killing people with pencils rather than bullets? Do you offer to make watches work again for one price, then offer to make them work exactly the same, but while using an antique magnifying glass and silver tweezers for twice the fee?

This is what most complaints regarding combat risk vs. reward sound like to me. Many people want to be paid based on how they chose to do something rather than on what they actually achieved...and the game already caters to this overly much, IMO.

There is an expectation that RESes and CZs should just provide an endless stream of victims, irrespective of what would logically be present. Some want to be ensured enough to cover the rebuy of a Cutter in x amount of time, even if the job they are doing could be done at the same pace with an FDL. Wing missions already multiply payments based on the number of laborers, for the same total work.

NPCs and factions should appear to be making the same efforts to maximize the value of their credits and efforts that you are. They should not pay more than they need to for the satisfactory completion of a given task. For payments to scale, the difficulty of the task must scale to exclude those willing to work for less.

Other in-game jobs should work the same way and if the game tried to make sense rather than trying to be balanced, it would be better balanced. This is why I don't argue for payout changes based on role or occupation, but what I see as logical supply and demand, like the plausible facsimile of an economy Elite always should have had, but never has.
 
I became an accidental billionaire while trying to get combat Elite.
I shot everything while BH, no target was too small for my FAS! Good times.

I continued to shoot many many ships after I got my rank, my CMDR is now in what should be called the "Super Duper Tax Bracket". This was all last year though before some of the ED updates spoiled my fun evermore.

Take a laser build, engineer then go to town in a hasres the rank and credits will flow over time if it's what you enjoy :)
 
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