Beyond is great but please let the next updates focus on combat and PvP

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

HGE are a to find now that BGS has been stunlocked. Here is for the PVP engrindeering.

Over all, once again, a poor show of an update fora system needlessly complex.

 

[Kissamies]

Here's one idea off the top of my head. Have a new global reputation stat: "Dangerousness". I'd use "notoriety", but that's already use. This would have zero effect on how the game world reacts to you. It would be solely on players. It would increase and decrease thusly:
- Killing another player: increase depeding the killed player's Dangerousness.
- Firing upon another player: small increase.
- Being fired upon a player and not shooting back: Moderate decrease upon waking out or death.

Killing players with no Dangerousness at all should be worthless for increasing this stat, but players with even a tiny bit should be "in the game", so to speak. The context of the combat should not matter, so honourable consensual PvPers are on the same playing field with griefers.

The second part of this idea is to have a global "scoreboard" listing everyone's stat. It would probably be framed as "these are the most dangerous Pilot's Federation members, watch out!" The players should also be able to "ping" their location to this scoreboard as to say "come at me, bro". The stat should also definitely be visible on a basic scan.

This idea wouldn't remove griefers, of course, but it should help to focus the attention of those competitive-minded players that might be on the fence.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

I'm simply asking for some better combat missions and meaningful pvp.

You all complain that you get blown up in open and that it's all full of griefers but your unwilling to throw them any kind of bone that will keep them busy instead of trying to eat you instead.

Sounds like youre all shooting yourself in the foot.

OK, let say that combat/PvP gets another update, despite what you think there have been many many additions to these already. What do you expect to happen? I'll tell you... PvE players will just get ganked even more by the sheer number of PvP players who think it's fun to fight smaller ships... In other words bully them.

You have not come up with any suggestions as to what this imagined pvp activity would be and you seem to be shooting yourself in the foot by not having anything new to bring to the table and also showing a bit of a snotty attitude towards others will in no way help your cause or argument.

Please explain what you mean by 'meaningful' PvP?
You want to be rewarded for PvP?

That's an exploit just waiting to be abused by PvP players.

Face it, pvp died in this game as soon as engineering came out. It was already going the way of the Dodo when CQC was released and not made part of the actual game. Frontier always stated that they did not intend this to become a PvP focused game and given that so many players only play in PG's to avoid it shows how little taste there is. There may well be a 'community' that enjoys it but they never speak with one voice, get angry when they are questioned and eventually threads get locked due to the inability to see the damage they themselves have caused thus ensuring that PvP will never be the focus of an update - Frontier know already what the reaction would be from the rest of the CMDR's.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

OP, Below is the way to come at this and bring something to the table:

Here's one idea off the top of my head. Have a new global reputation stat: "Dangerousness". I'd use "notoriety", but that's already use. This would have zero effect on how the game world reacts to you. It would be solely on players. It would increase and decrease thusly:
- Killing another player: increase depeding the killed player's Dangerousness.
- Firing upon another player: small increase.
- Being fired upon a player and not shooting back: Moderate decrease upon waking out or death.

Killing players with no Dangerousness at all should be worthless for increasing this stat, but players with even a tiny bit should be "in the game", so to speak. The context of the combat should not matter, so honourable consensual PvPers are on the same playing field with griefers.

The second part of this idea is to have a global "scoreboard" listing everyone's stat. It would probably be framed as "these are the most dangerous Pilot's Federation members, watch out!" The players should also be able to "ping" their location to this scoreboard as to say "come at me, bro". The stat should also definitely be visible on a basic scan.

This idea wouldn't remove griefers, of course, but it should help to focus the attention of those competitive-minded players that might be on the fence.

Perfect? Not by any means but at least it is a starting point to discuss the possibilities far more so than:

I think it would at least be a start if Fdev made an official PvP system where rebuys we're waved crimes we're turned off. Fdev could also make it so that killing another player could reward you with credits or something. I don't know ow but something really needs to be done with PvP in this game.

The above idea from you could and would just be exploited by players - Your suggestion is that every time a player kills another they get a reward yet this breaks the game world by rewarding murder despite any crime and punishment system implemented. It also allows for CMDR's to stat pad by taking turns to kill each other and reap the rewards you talk of.

PvP should be meaningful - Pretty sure it was DB himself that said that.

 

[Dizzy B High]

I stopped reading at the 3rd or 4th page so sorry if i've missed stuff.

How can PVP be made meaningful?

I don't get this, surly blowing up other PVPers who want to pvp is the only meaningful thing there can be.
The satisfaction of killing another like minded person who enjoys the thrill of the fight?
You say you don't care about credits or rebuys so i don't know what other reward can be gained other than the satisfaction of beating another commander?

How about you PVPers group up create your own squadrons, then organise fights against other squadrons.
That would be a good start, once you have that in place, am sure if you communicated with FDEV that they could organise or put in a system where you can have PVP CG's.

With leaderboards on who got the most kills and some kind of decal for you to wear with pride.

Elite is all about forging your own path, on your own or with others, that takes work to organise, just look at the myriad of events non PVPers set up so they can do things in the game they enjoy. When FDEV see communities and groups putting effort in to organise events they usually back them up to help them get the most out of it.

The 10 minutes fighting thing is a direct result of pvpers wanting to be unbeatable, and guess what, you pretty much are that's why it takes 10 minutes to strip someones shields down, and then you don't have time to destroy their ship because, guess what they don't fancy that rebuy screen.

The only way the devs could improve it it buy having a PVP flag, where you get something for damaging other PVPers with the PVP flag, though i dont know what you can be rewarded for getting the most damage, because ED is just not that kind of game, the only thing they could do it utilise the Arena where it moves to a different system every server tick, and there's a megaship or something thats only visible to players with the PVP flag on, you drop in wait for others and when there's 7 on each side let the games begin.

The best soloution would be to implement bounty hunting properly where you can hunt down other PVPers, unfortunatley bounty hunting is a no go area now because of people blowing up each other for credits, which basically killed that whole area of the game off from day one.

I totally understand your frustration as there does not seem to be anything that helps to focus PVP for those that want it, in all honesty i just dont think its possible without another kind of mode.

Perhaps if there was some way of utilising another mode locked to those initial bubble systems we saw in the original Beta and calling that a PVP zone, which would concentrate pvpers to a more condensed area.

I think you need to work with other like minded PVPers and create your own content you need to put the work in to give your PVPing something meaningful because as the game stands as much as frontier want it to be it cannot have meaningful PVP in its current state, the instancing is the biggest hindrance to it.

 

[Brrokk]

As above. When PvP enthusiasts start organising meaningful PvP activities, I'll believe that meaningful PvP content is actually what they want.

The thing about a sandbox is, you can have whatever content you want.

 

[Frenotx]

As above. When PvP enthusiasts start organising meaningful PvP activities, I'll believe that meaningful PvP content is actually what they want.

The thing about a sandbox is, you can have whatever content you want.

What kind of activities do you mean? The PvP community HAS organized a variety of things. The "it's a sanbox" argument is kinda weak, too, considering that same argument could be used to argue against the necessity of MOST content- PvP AND PvE. Hell, it could be use to argue against the necessity of PvE activities on the whole!

 

[Brrokk]

What kind of activities do you mean? The PvP community HAS organized a variety of things. The "it's a sanbox" argument is kinda weak, too, considering that same argument could be used to argue against the necessity of MOST content- PvP AND PvE. Hell, it could be use to argue against the necessity of PvE activities on the whole!

Well, having in mind the complaints I've seen around PvP, where is the Private Group which you can be thrown out of for disconnecting, menu logging, high-waking, using engineered modules or shield boosters, in which a few anarchy systems are nominated to fight over? Maybe on alternate weeks people take turns being traders and pirates? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be tempted to apply to join and have a go myself.

 

[Havvk]

Dropping this here, since it's quite relevant to the discussion:

And this goes into the points I've been trying to make the whole time.

Buff up the NPCs to actually be a threat to anybody, no matter the mode. If you can't take on an Elite NPC, well that's because it's ELITE. This does not justify going onto the forums and crying about it and demanding the NPCs to be nerfed to the point where a newbie in his/her first 5 minutes can solo an Elite anaconda/Corvette/Cutter and win in their stock noobwinder. That's just stupid. So this video addresses that and we are in desperate need for an update that makes Elite, as many love to say, "Dangerous" no matter the mode.


This also kills the whole notion of all that crap "Open-only this or that" excuse which is a bad move for the game as a whole.

 

[Han Zulu]

This was on the previous page:

One simple thing would be some kind of reward. Some way of rewarding consensual pvp. Right now the only thing you get from pvp is a rebuy screen.

That's a good point. Perhaps the squadron system and the leaderboard could be part of doing that as well.

Beyond that, giving some kind of meaning to powerplay. A way to organize pvpers to get rid of this "I got shot in open for no reason".

I believe one big function the squadron is to organize PvPers, and if there could be squadron-v-squadron wars/conflicts, you'd have what you need.

Also the second half of my OP has an idea of an arena type system they could add.

You mean having a form of Open only conflict zone between two fighting squadrons? If that was implemented, FDev should also consider having some form of players being observers, for streaming some large battle.

I think what's missing is that right now, the mechanics is not there to support any form of e-sports. The day Elite can provide a scene for actual team-v-team competition in PvP, I don't think anyone will feel there's a lot of meaning (as you said it) to PvP.

 

[StiTch]

We had a combat-focused update once. 2.1 The Engineers. Half the PvP community ragequit.

We've just had an exploration update. Lots of explorers are very unhappy with the new FSS.

Be careful what you wish for, is what I'm saying

I agree combat gets attention, but it getting the wrong attention is a rubbish reason to warn people about what they wish for.

We shouldn't really have to say "please give us an update that isn't balance breaking, tedious, and/or pointless".

Also, PvP still hasn't had any attention - and as it's part of the original game design, deserves it as much as anything else in the long run - whether some people dislike it or not.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I hope it was written with a bit of ironic twist. People have flipped tables because past updates have been combat focused.

 

[Mohrgan]

I agree combat gets attention, but it getting the wrong attention is a rubbish reason to warn people about what they wish for.

We shouldn't really have to say "please give us an update that isn't balance breaking, tedious, and/or pointless".

Also, PvP still hasn't had any attention - and as it's part of the original game design, deserves it as much as anything else in the long run - whether some people dislike it or not.

Part of the argument is that all, or most, of the attention combat has had, and arguably it has hogged FD's attention, has been to benefit PvP. No NPC complained that this or that is OP, or UP. Specifically, there was even a Beta intended just for PvP during the heady 'Heat Meta' days.

I don't see balance passes, or hit point issues as the crux of the complaint here. It surly is a peeve of a number of Commanders, but the crux as I see it is meaning and impact over and in the game. More ships, weapons and gadgets, or even fiddling with the ones we have won't entice players to engage in PvP, it won't offer meaning to engagements, it won't bring impact on the galaxy, it will just make fighting the same old guys for no real reason, faster. Again, not something that will alter the landscape.

Just a thought.

 

[StiTch]

Part of the argument is that all, or most, of the attention combat has had, and arguably it has hogged FD's attention, has been to benefit PvP. No NPC complained that this or that is OP, or UP. Specifically, there was even a Beta intended just for PvP during the heady 'Heat Meta' days.

I don't see balance passes, or hit point issues as the crux of the complaint here. It surly is a peeve of a number of Commanders, but the crux as I see it is meaning and impact over and in the game. More ships, weapons and gadgets, or even fiddling with the ones we have won't entice players to engage in PvP, it won't offer meaning to engagements, it won't bring impact on the galaxy, it will just make fighting the same old guys for no real reason, faster. Again, not something that will alter the landscape.

Just a thought.

Appreciate the thought, but it's off the mark ol' bud.

Firstly there isn't a shot in hell engineering - or any updates - were explicitly in the name of PvP. They have been to develop combat overall, at the - potentially unintended - detriment to PvP balance. Almost any PvP player I know has affirmed that engineering was a blight on balance and excitement. In a nutshell, what it does is actually give players something to do.

The confusion, which does crop up every now and again, is caused because PvP players tend to provide the most organised and constructive feedback around balancing. I can't remember where the quote is but FD themselves made reference to this. Most PvP players want balanced environment, and players such as TS take it a step further by analysing and commenting on multiple aspects of engineering and general balance.

Without bias, I can honestly say that the number of times I've seen a PvE player has contributed in such a way can be counted on one hand. The general commentary from PvE players amounts to "let us have unlimited power because you can choose not to use it if you want challenge".

But something we can agree on is that as FD introduced more mods, tools, gadgets etc., it did nothing for PvP and simply convoluted the game. I've mentioned a few times before that unless you are clever about what you develop, too many options simply equates to a higher probability of a given combination being overpowered, or the accentuation of "rock paper scissors" - any given loadout can perform better or worse against another, to the point that victory depends on what loadout you happened to bring at the time.

But your note that NPCs don't complain about balance did make me laugh. Cheers for that

 

[Mohrgan]

Appreciate the thought, but it's off the mark ol' bud.

Firstly there isn't a shot in hell engineering - or any updates - were explicitly in the name of PvP. They have been to develop combat overall, at the - potentially unintended - detriment to PvP balance. Almost any PvP player I know has affirmed that engineering was a blight on balance and excitement. In a nutshell, what it does is actually give players something to do.

The confusion, which does crop up every now and again, is caused because PvP players tend to provide the most organised and constructive feedback around balancing. I can't remember where the quote is but FD themselves made reference to this. Most PvP players want balanced environment, and players such as TS take it a step further by analysing and commenting on multiple aspects of engineering and general balance.

Without bias, I can honestly say that the number of times I've seen a PvE player has contributed in such a way can be counted on one hand. The general commentary from PvE players amounts to "let us have unlimited power because you can choose not to use it if you want challenge".

But something we can agree on is that as FD introduced more mods, tools, gadgets etc., it did nothing for PvP and simply convoluted the game. I've mentioned a few times before that unless you are clever about what you develop, too many options simply equates to a higher probability of a given combination being overpowered, or the accentuation of "rock paper scissors" - any given loadout can perform better or worse against another, to the point that victory depends on what loadout you happened to bring at the time.

But your note that NPCs don't complain about balance did make me laugh. Cheers for that

Ol' bud? But, you are wrong. There was at least one up-date, last season, where there was a Beta period intended to balance Engineers almost completely over PvP balance. Reference the saga over the 'Heat Meta'. I must be at least one of the PvE guys making an input on combat balance.

But, offering a complete focus on Engineering in your post only serves to create a false impression about the conversation going on here. Your assertion about PvP players may be true, and I accept it, but that doesn't satisfy the argument. I don;t need to pump up PvP players, they're doing ok in the ego dept on their own.

 

[StiTch]

Ol' bud? But, you are wrong. There was at least one up-date, last season, where there was a Beta period intended to balance Engineers almost completely over PvP balance. Reference the saga over the 'Heat Meta'. I must be at least one of the PvE guys making an input on combat balance.

But, offering a complete focus on Engineering in your post only serves to create a false impression about the conversation going on here. Your assertion about PvP players may be true, and I accept it, but that doesn't satisfy the argument. I don;t need to pump up PvP players, they're doing ok in the ego dept on their own.

I mention engineering because it's the strongest example of it all. Outside of engineering and its development, what combat developments have we had? SLFs? Multicrew? PvP focused? *chuckles*

Nah, at best, PvP play highlights the flaws in certain circumstances or builds that you wouldn't see in PvE because the engineering on NPCs is lacklustre and disorganised. There's next to nothing explicitly updated for PvP and even less explicitly introduced for it.

And let's not turn this into a conversation about ego. I can reference as many cases of it in PvE players as PvP players-and in any case, it's a crap anchor for debate.

 

[AP Birdman]

OK, let say that combat/PvP gets another update, despite what you think there have been many many additions to these already. What do you expect to happen? I'll tell you... PvE players will just get ganked even more by the sheer number of PvP players who think it's fun to fight smaller ships... In other words bully them.

You have not come up with any suggestions as to what this imagined pvp activity would be and you seem to be shooting yourself in the foot by not having anything new to bring to the table and also showing a bit of a snotty attitude towards others will in no way help your cause or argument.

Please explain what you mean by 'meaningful' PvP?
You want to be rewarded for PvP?

That's an exploit just waiting to be abused by PvP players.

Face it, pvp died in this game as soon as engineering came out. It was already going the way of the Dodo when CQC was released and not made part of the actual game. Frontier always stated that they did not intend this to become a PvP focused game and given that so many players only play in PG's to avoid it shows how little taste there is. There may well be a 'community' that enjoys it but they never speak with one voice, get angry when they are questioned and eventually threads get locked due to the inability to see the damage they themselves have caused thus ensuring that PvP will never be the focus of an update - Frontier know already what the reaction would be from the rest of the CMDR's.

OP, Below is the way to come at this and bring something to the table:



Perfect? Not by any means but at least it is a starting point to discuss the possibilities far more so than:



The above idea from you could and would just be exploited by players - Your suggestion is that every time a player kills another they get a reward yet this breaks the game world by rewarding murder despite any crime and punishment system implemented. It also allows for CMDR's to stat pad by taking turns to kill each other and reap the rewards you talk of.

PvP should be meaningful - Pretty sure it was DB himself that said that.

This has all been discussed many times already.

Start with post #379

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...e-next-updates-focus-on-combat-and-PvP/page26

 

[Mohrgan]

I mention engineering because it's the strongest example of it all. Outside of engineering and its development, what combat developments have we had? SLFs? Multicrew? PvP focused? *chuckles*

Nah, at best, PvP play highlights the flaws in certain circumstances or builds that you wouldn't see in PvE because the engineering on NPCs is lacklustre and disorganised. There's next to nothing explicitly updated for PvP and even less explicitly introduced for it.

And let's not turn this into a conversation about ego. I can reference as many cases of it in PvE players as PvP players-and in any case, it's a crap anchor for debate.

In my impression, you miss the entire flow of this thread. You're interpretation of the past up-dates and mine don't jive. I'll leave it for others to consider the input you bring to the discussion. o7

 

[StiTch]

In my impression, you miss the entire flow of this thread. You're interpretation of the past up-dates and mine don't jive. I'll leave it for others to consider the input you bring to the discussion. o7

I intentionally leave out certain aspects because they are nothing to do with PvP. The lack of challenging PvE combat is, well, PvE - but I hugely agree with OP. Whether players use a full wing of 'vettes or not is not a good reason to leave them without anything difficult and/or interesting to do. I've flown the flag for this on multiple occasions.

As far as PvP only content goes, you and me both know there isn't any and isn't likely to be any - and I actually agree with this. Content ideally allow for engaging and constructive PvP while not giving it content unobtainable in PvE.

If you're looking for a discussion on tiny parts of patches that focus on heat mechanics or whatever, then I still disagree with you, and I think it is you that has missed the topic of the thread.

Any way - have a good evening.

 

[Sterling MH]

"We shouldn't really have to say "please give us an update that isn't balance breaking, tedious, and/or pointless"."

If you do say that, then no wonder you don't get any changes. Kinda hard to work out what to do, even if it were not a truism that there'd be other people NOT thinking it balance breaking, tedious or pointless.

Go argue if having a PvP mode to run as, same thing as Solo,PG and Open, but where the block list doesn't work and everyone is treated like "friends" so that everyone gets instanced together a lot more often. This won't affect anyone in the other modes, so maybe if this were laid down as a first step, changes in the rules could be enacted. Such as no C&P or a % increase on payouts for non combat work, or a run on region servers so as to fit a lot more people on the same instance.

Or if you just want to take your ships in to CQC, then stop complaining and push for that, so that FD hears only one voice from the PvPers.

As it is, every single one of you ignores, to a vast extent, the ideas of others, so when FD hear a thousand different voices clamouring for their personal ideas, or no ideas at all ("Don't make it pointless!!!"), at least FD can propose *A* change on the PvP forums or the hot topic discussion threads.

As it is, most PvPers sound like they're saying "Brexit means Brexit", they just didn't mean "Default exit, no special deals". Never SAID so, and everyone had a different idea what they needed. Any wonder that, like PvP, has been a permanent state of criticism and complaint?