Beyond is great but please let the next updates focus on combat and PvP

[Frenotx]

Go ask a combat flight sim about turning circles and their importance in a dogfight. If I can turn inside your boost turn radius I cannot lose the turning circle fight. And it's very likely that I will win it and make a bead on you. Something that makes going for gimballed weapons nothing like a "scrub" choice: there's tactical use for firing off-boresight, usually in a dogfight. Better boosting is still a great advantage because you can either engage or disengage on your terms, if you can permaboost faster or they can't boost all the time.

Dropping the game because it doesn't fit the way you play is a very bad reason to leave a game. Sure, it's only a game so you don't NEED a reason to stop. But that doesn't stop it being a bad reason.

ED has a problem with situational awareness, though I daresay that familiarity will lessen the gap. I frequently boost turn to try to get bead on a big ship (always an anaconda, small ships this never happens with) and then find I've just flipped right round to their front guns. Better radar or a HUD element for an off-screen target with range and relative heading would do for me. But its lack doesn't make me not play.

I am extremely familiar with the finer points of combat in elite. I started playing in beta and have put many many hours in since, primarily doing combat activities. I have flown many ships over the years with many different styles, against both players and NPCs. In addition to just playing the game, I've spent countless hours by myself and working with others to test and figure out the finer points of how various mechanics work, and really get the game down to a science. The thing that kept me so engaged in the game was largely the flight model. I love the interesting mix between space combat and old-school dogfighting. That star-wars-ish cinematic flying is what sets the FEEL of elite apart from other options. That FEEL of the game is what keeps getting eroded, and since that what kept me so deeply interested in the game for so long, that feel going away means I go away.

It's not that the game "doesn't fit the way I play". I've adapted the changed the way I play many times in my playtime in elite. Hell, trying new builds, ships, and combat styles is one of my favourite things to do. The reason I don't really play anymore is because frontier has undermined their own design, and lost sight of what made flying in elite fun and unique.

 

[Sterling MH]

I was talking about outside ED. There's no manual to give you BFMs (Basic Fight Manoevers) in Elite. Permaboost is of less utility in a dogfight than you think. Falcon 4 came with a manual you could kill small mammals with easily when hurled. None of the combat vids I've seen with Elite come with much other than what you can do, not what manoevers (especially defensive ones) you can take against a "better performing" foe.

It's not the same with combat flight sims.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Fdev need to stop ignoring the PVPers in this game and pretending that pvp doesn't exist. Well FDEV, pvp is dying! We need a reason to do so, now more than ever. Since the new update introduced a "Low wake bug" it has essentialy killed pvp.

We need some pvp oriented and driven content. Just recently Zarak Null introduced a pvp event that had a large number of pvpers attending and fdev didn't even comment on it (as far as I know). CQC is not the same as flying your engineered ship and going toe to toe with another ship that has been modified.

 

[Sterling MH]

Fdev need to stop ignoring the PVPers in this game and pretending that pvp doesn't exist.

They're not and they don't. CQC is pure PvP. You ignored it and now it is dead. And "It doesn't count" doesn't count because you said it was being ignored. If they made an entire mode for you, you ain't ignored.

 

[Frenotx]

I was talking about outside ED. There's no manual to give you BFMs (Basic Fight Manoevers) in Elite. Permaboost is of less utility in a dogfight than you think. Falcon 4 came with a manual you could kill small mammals with easily when hurled. None of the combat vids I've seen with Elite come with much other than what you can do, not what manoevers (especially defensive ones) you can take against a "better performing" foe.

It's not the same with combat flight sims.

I've been playing flight games since I was a kid, and grew up around pilots (dad and his dad were navy pilots, as were a large number of the adults around me). I've had a keen interest in fight my whole life. I'm pretty familiar with BFMs.

On that note, a lot of that stuff is only partially applicable due to the lack of gravity, ability to fly in directions other than the one you're pointed in, and flexibility of targeting direction. Interesting combat is further undermined by ludicrous health inflation smoothing out and extending fights, largely turning them into a DPS vs total tank race.

 

[Sterling MH]

Well, its normal form to expand an acronym (initialism in this case) when you first use it. Sure there's nothing usable about using G moves since there's no gravity well to slow you down or decrease the turn radius or nose rating, but there's still a lot of play for offensive and defensive moves from "real life" to intrude, if only to show that the flight model is more "fighters in space" rather than realistic. Elite 2 proved how bad an idea it was to have a realistic flight model. Laser jousts were completely un fun.

Note: I-war 1 and 2 did a VERY good job of giving a reason why "real life spacefaring" would still allow good dogfighting.

And I could well have been playing flight sims for longer than you've been alive. 35 years now I realise, from the DI's Typhoon and ATF on the Spectrum 48k. I get old. The radar in Elite is the classic, but it worked best when there were only a few things on the radar. It's not fit for purpose for combat in close quarters.

But despite this, the boost is not an I-win button if you know what you're doing and especially if they don't know what they're doing. It's not as black and white as you made ouy.

 

[AP Birdman]

They're not and they don't. CQC is pure PvP. You ignored it and now it is dead. And "It doesn't count" doesn't count because you said it was being ignored. If they made an entire mode for you, you ain't ignored.

SMH, are you serious or are you just a troll? I thought I was supposed to be the troll?

 

[Mohrgan]

Does anyone really believe that the problems surrounding combat overall, and PvP specifically, would be solved by reducing TTK? I mean, would that bring meaning, impact, and increased involvement to PvP? I can see that reducing TTK could make fighting the same old Commanders a bit more satisfying, but how would things really improve?

Be my guests and dither on about your combat pet-peeves. It has to be cathartic. I just don't see anything like the most recent comments making anything more than a momentary change. Once the new baselines were explored and defined, boom, you are right back to where we are. With no reason to engage.

I won't be getting back into the PvP world, I've learned my lessons, but those of you craving the tussle, I believe, are doing yourselves a disservice by focusing on balance passes, when you could be conjuring a context for PvP. I guess all I have to say is: Suit yourselves.

 

[Mohrgan]

SMH, are you serious or are you just a troll? I thought I was supposed to be the troll?

I, personally, understand the failings of CQC. But, that doesn't mean the sentiment Sterling expresses is trolling. There is a valid idea that rather than just brush CQC, and any comments about it aside, people should campaign to include the stuffs it lacks. It could satify quite a lot of the surface complaints about PvP in E|D. The pure dismissal of a competitive environment for balanced PvP leaves open the idea that without the asymmetrical aspects of PvP in wild, people find it unappealing. As in: "PvP is only fun when it aggravates someone".

 

[Sterling MH]

Does anyone really believe that the problems surrounding combat overall, and PvP specifically, would be solved by reducing TTK? .

I don't. It will also make more seals to be clubbed. Shield boosters with resistance enhancements are not as plentiful on trade ships but are plentiful on combat ships, as are those modules for increasing TTK. Anyone asking that the military slots be canned? THAT would reduce TTK without nerfing noncombats whose TTK isn't that great anyway.

Not to mention that if TTK were such a bad thing, load up on engineered torpedoes to take out the shields and then thermal overload or otherwise take out control from the pilot, job done.

TTK is a done deal. You can't carry many torpedoes so you can't survive [lots of - maybe the swear filter ate this word] PvP ship combats, but then apparently it's hard to get PvP, it having been "abandoned" by FDev, so you're going to get bored long before you're out of torpedoes.

 

[AP Birdman]

Does anyone really believe that the problems surrounding combat overall, and PvP specifically, would be solved by reducing TTK? I mean, would that bring meaning, impact, and increased involvement to PvP? I can see that reducing TTK could make fighting the same old Commanders a bit more satisfying, but how would things really improve?

Be my guests and dither on about your combat pet-peeves. It has to be cathartic. I just don't see anything like the most recent comments making anything more than a momentary change. Once the new baselines were explored and defined, boom, you are right back to where we are. With no reason to engage.

I won't be getting back into the PvP world, I've learned my lessons, but those of you craving the tussle, I believe, are doing yourselves a disservice by focusing on balance passes, when you could be conjuring a context for PvP. I guess all I have to say is: Suit yourselves.

I don't think TTK would fix anything, I just think it would make the game much more enjoyable. It's pretty absurd that just about any competent pilot in a reasonable well built ship can just escape when they see they're losing. It takes away all the way excitement.
Players in cutters at CG's largely get ignored because we know there's no way of popping em. They're almost guaranteed to get away.

I, personally, understand the failings of CQC. But, that doesn't mean the sentiment Sterling expresses is trolling. There is a valid idea that rather than just brush CQC, and any comments about it aside, people should campaign to include the stuffs it lacks. It could satify quite a lot of the surface complaints about PvP in E|D. The pure dismissal of a competitive environment for balanced PvP leaves open the idea that without the asymmetrical aspects of PvP in wild, people find it unappealing. As in: "PvP is only fun when it aggravates someone".

No but the idea that cqc failing is all our fault is absurd. Cqc failed the day they decided cqc would be its own separate mode, then not being able to use our own ships we're the nails in the coffin.
Cqc failed because of fdevs dumb decisions on how to implement it.

 

[Frenotx]

Does anyone really believe that the problems surrounding combat overall, and PvP specifically, would be solved by reducing TTK? I mean, would that bring meaning, impact, and increased involvement to PvP? I can see that reducing TTK could make fighting the same old Commanders a bit more satisfying, but how would things really improve?

Be my guests and dither on about your combat pet-peeves. It has to be cathartic. I just don't see anything like the most recent comments making anything more than a momentary change. Once the new baselines were explored and defined, boom, you are right back to where we are. With no reason to engage.

I won't be getting back into the PvP world, I've learned my lessons, but those of you craving the tussle, I believe, are doing yourselves a disservice by focusing on balance passes, when you could be conjuring a context for PvP. I guess all I have to say is: Suit yourselves.

Lowering TTK is just one component. Lowering it by itself, especially depending on HOW it's lowered, would not be a silver bullet that solves all problems.

 

[da_wae]

I, personally, understand the failings of CQC. But, that doesn't mean the sentiment Sterling expresses is trolling. There is a valid idea that rather than just brush CQC, and any comments about it aside, people should campaign to include the stuffs it lacks. It could satify quite a lot of the surface complaints about PvP in E|D. The pure dismissal of a competitive environment for balanced PvP leaves open the idea that without the asymmetrical aspects of PvP in wild, people find it unappealing. As in: "PvP is only fun when it aggravates someone".

CQC failed because ED PvPers (as opposed to other games where PvP is a central aspect), simply do not want a level playing field where they engage other players in perfectly balanced combat (100% skill based).

Instead, most ED PvPers wan't to be able to use their Hyper-Grind-Acquired-Engineer-MinMaxed-PVP-Meta builds to murder unsuspecting victims. Occasionally they will engage each other to try and find out who has made the most ludicrous build.

PvP in ED since Engineers were release stopped being about Piloting Skill and became instead a testament to the patience of the player to grind out the most meta build possible.
Most, if not all the skill-focused PvP players quit after engineers, and the remainder of the PvP community simply will refuse to engage in fights without their uber-engineered demi-god killing machines.

And that's why CQC failed. Elite's PVP community is mostly looking for easy victims to murder so they can "role play" a criminal (that's their excuse).
This is also why the PvP community will eventually fold upon itself when most non-PvP players have big enough block lists to relegate all PvPers to their own instances [haha].

 

[EternalSorrow]

I've been thinking a lot about how it could be, since I've got some piloting experience in some flight/space combat sims, and that's my subjective opinion, that (i hope) can be interesting for someone. And yes, it's all about an in-game combat at all, not only PvP.

Combat as we have now in game is a complete garbage. FDev have done a lot while developing all these kinds of weapons and combat equipment, and they deserve their weapons to be used in different and creative ways. But their work is completely wasted due to the missing of an overall vision how it should behave like a whole. Combat system in game is just... It is. We can shoot other ships, yay.

But current ship outfitting and combat system is so straight-line. What we do while building a combat ship?
- By A-graded combat equipment
- By D-graded non-combat equipment
- Maxing out weapons damage output with engineering, inflating shields, chip-tune engines, etc
Voila, we have finished our Ultimate Killer Lance.

Current ship fitting system is mindless.

I've made a suggestion about how it could be much more interesting - balancing a ship according to your play style, combat tactics and reaction/strategic abilities, instead of obvious stat maxing. But nobody cares! I've got almost no feedback from other players, and my thread have drowned under (subjectively, but...) garbage topics like "Remove Cobra Mk IV NPCs" or "FSS bindings are too complicated!" .

I'm speaking to all players who are interested in combat, at least for a little - please, help me to make our game better - support my suggestion or discuss it with me and each other in it's own thread. Or make your own, which will get another players's attention. I have no doubt that FDev are interested in well-played combat mechanics, but community attention could make it more prior to the devs.

Here is the link to the suggestion, please - read it at least:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/467378-Combat-outfitting-overhaul

Thanks for your attention.

 

[AP Birdman]

CQC failed because ED PvPers (as opposed to other games where PvP is a central aspect), simply do not want a level playing field where they engage other players in perfectly balanced combat (100% skill based).

Instead, most ED PvPers wan't to be able to use their Hyper-Grind-Acquired-Engineer-MinMaxed-PVP-Meta builds to murder unsuspecting victims. Occasionally they will engage each other to try and find out who has made the most ludicrous build.

PvP in ED since Engineers were release stopped being about Piloting Skill and became instead a testament to the patience of the player to grind out the most meta build possible.
Most, if not all the skill-focused PvP players quit after engineers, and the remainder of the PvP community simply will refuse to engage in fights without their uber-engineered demi-god killing machines.

And that's why CQC failed. Elite's PVP community is mostly looking for easy victims to murder so they can "role play" a criminal (that's their excuse).
This is also why the PvP community will eventually fold upon itself when most non-PvP players have big enough block lists to relegate all PvPers to their own instances [haha].

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROFL!!!

This might be the winner of the worst and saltiest comment I've ever read award.

I know salty players exist but this is next level salty. This is great salt lake salty.

Lol I love it!
I'm not even gonna waste my time explaining anything to you because insanity can't be reasoned with.

 

[Goose4291]

CQC failed because ED PvPers (as opposed to other games where PvP is a central aspect), simply do not want a level playing field where they engage other players in perfectly balanced combat (100% skill based).

Instead, most ED PvPers wan't to be able to use their Hyper-Grind-Acquired-Engineer-MinMaxed-PVP-Meta builds to murder unsuspecting victims. Occasionally they will engage each other to try and find out who has made the most ludicrous build.

PvP in ED since Engineers were release stopped being about Piloting Skill and became instead a testament to the patience of the player to grind out the most meta build possible.
Most, if not all the skill-focused PvP players quit after engineers, and the remainder of the PvP community simply will refuse to engage in fights without their uber-engineered demi-god killing machines.

And that's why CQC failed. Elite's PVP community is mostly looking for easy victims to murder so they can "role play" a criminal (that's their excuse).
This is also why the PvP community will eventually fold upon itself when most non-PvP players have big enough block lists to relegate all PvPers to their own instances [haha].

 

[Deleted member 115407]

CQC failed because ED PvPers (as opposed to other games where PvP is a central aspect), simply do not want a level playing field where they engage other players in perfectly balanced combat (100% skill based).

Instead, most ED PvPers wan't to be able to use their Hyper-Grind-Acquired-Engineer-MinMaxed-PVP-Meta builds to murder unsuspecting victims. Occasionally they will engage each other to try and find out who has made the most ludicrous build.

PvP in ED since Engineers were release stopped being about Piloting Skill and became instead a testament to the patience of the player to grind out the most meta build possible.
Most, if not all the skill-focused PvP players quit after engineers, and the remainder of the PvP community simply will refuse to engage in fights without their uber-engineered demi-god killing machines.

And that's why CQC failed. Elite's PVP community is mostly looking for easy victims to murder so they can "role play" a criminal (that's their excuse).
This is also why the PvP community will eventually fold upon itself when most non-PvP players have big enough block lists to relegate all PvPers to their own instances [haha].

Now that the playing field is level again, should be good times for PvPers, huh?

Not to mention the PvE crowd.

 

[Frenotx]

CQC failed because ED PvPers (as opposed to other games where PvP is a central aspect), simply do not want a level playing field where they engage other players in perfectly balanced combat (100% skill based).

Instead, most ED PvPers wan't to be able to use their Hyper-Grind-Acquired-Engineer-MinMaxed-PVP-Meta builds to murder unsuspecting victims. Occasionally they will engage each other to try and find out who has made the most ludicrous build.

PvP in ED since Engineers were release stopped being about Piloting Skill and became instead a testament to the patience of the player to grind out the most meta build possible.
Most, if not all the skill-focused PvP players quit after engineers, and the remainder of the PvP community simply will refuse to engage in fights without their uber-engineered demi-god killing machines.

And that's why CQC failed. Elite's PVP community is mostly looking for easy victims to murder so they can "role play" a criminal (that's their excuse).
This is also why the PvP community will eventually fold upon itself when most non-PvP players have big enough block lists to relegate all PvPers to their own instances [haha].

So ED PvP players just want easy kills, yet they want the TTK of top-end ships to go down? Top-engineered ships like the ones they're flying? I think you need to take off your tinfoil hat and engage your critical thinking drives.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I didn't say that. I just hope combat and pvp gets as much of an upgrade next year as exploration and mining just got.

And no matter how you try to spin it, combat mission rewards just suck, plain and simple, especially for wings.

Lol half of the Dev time in this game has been around combat and PvP. Personally I would like to see improvements around the BGS, economy and mission board as a whole which would certainly touch on combat features however yet another entire point release around combat, esp PvP? God please no!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I think PvP has had enough love in this game for this lifetime.

We need moar PvE stuff like in Beyond season! Keep it going please FD.

Absolutely. "PvP" is the stone dragging this game down imo. Lore wise there is very little reason why pilots federation members should be singling each other out and the last thing we need is FD encouraging more of it imo. If they want to expand cqc allowing players to test out their own ships or even have some "in universe" cqc then that is great with me, but billion credit ships blowing each other up for "fun" and expecting insurance to cover it imdoes not fit with elite imo. (Admittedly my biased opinion because without the lore and the RP I would have left this game years ago)