Mining - Am I alone feeling it's unbalanced/not quite working?

[sollisb]

Straw man I'm afraid...

There's no reason more balanced mechanics couldn't offer what ever level of income is wanted. Less, the same or more.

Unless your mining experience is different to mine, notice how little legacy, surface (outside motherlodes), and sub-surface you do.

Ie: Notice how little legacy, (regular) surface and sub-surface are in the game loop. Is that a good thing?

I think you'll find that it's modus operandi typical of FDev. They deploy a substandard implementation of something, and then later rehash it which makes the previous stuff redundant. Laser mining is now redundant, res sites are now redundant, Engineers replaced, Exploration replaced.

It's been obvious the only plan they had from the start was a big old galaxy, and then they bolted bits on. Badly.

I doubt you'll see a rejig of mining, though I do forsee a huge nerf hammer on the way.

Going forward, I think it'd be lovely to see them fix the bugs they should have fixed last year.

 

[NeilF]

Its always the same , some people don't like other people making money and feel they need to interfere. Almost makes you wish that there was a fourth mode , Open, Private Group, Solo, Sackcloth Ashes and Skint, then the pious and handwavium types would have somewhere to play where all the fun had already been removed and the rest of us could carry on playing as we see fit unhindered by people who would probably thoroughly approve if Fdev introduced personal taxation to Cmdrs accounts.

What is always the same, is seemingly the probability of someone stomping into a thread, seemingly not having taken the time to actually read it (& certainly to understand it), before then waving a pitchford and torch wildly around, angrily complaining about strawman point(s) they've concocted...

But let's do you the good grace of addressing you're underying issue/point so you can hopefully join the conversation in a more constructive way?

"some people don't like other people making money and feel they need to interfere" - I suspect there isn't any suggestion in this entire threaded dedicated to that notion. Indeed I know for a fact I've said the intent of any suggestion I've made is irrespetive of "money" (income) and indeed any changes to mechanics/balance should not be confused with this as they could be implemented to reduce, retain or increase income. So it's a moot point.

The actual point of this thread (specifically the OP) is that fact of how poorly the mining mechanics seem to be working from a gameplay point of view, both at a micro level of how you mine, to a macro level given the broaded hotspot and "gold rush" mechanics.

Again, I have no issue if it's possible to make 100m per hour or so, but the suggestion is it's more important that the new mining mechanics are adjusted to work rather more logically and "enjoyably" than they do now...

 

[avow555]

The opal cash cow was left in to bump player figures after a pretty buggged update.

Shareholders and investors love figures...

 

[Jukelo]

Its always the same , some people don't like other people making money and feel they need to interfere. Almost makes you wish that there was a fourth mode , Open, Private Group, Solo, Sackcloth Ashes and Skint, then the pious and handwavium types would have somewhere to play where all the fun had already been removed and the rest of us could carry on playing as we see fit unhindered by people who would probably thoroughly approve if Fdev introduced personal taxation to Cmdrs accounts.

Would you people please bloody read the OP rather than knee-jerk to the title?

This thread is pointing out the gross imbalance between the different types of mining, even though there is very little different in skill and effort required to take part in them. If you had actually read the OP, instead of posting that misdirected tirade, you could have argued that the balance levers can be both pulled or pushed on. If what you want it to be able to afford an Anaconda in a matter of hours while addressing the OP's entirely valid concerns, you could argue that it is legacy mining (and subsurface) that need a buff...

Thats the whole point he is trying to make...

I agree with Tthb, the whole balancing crepe is depressing. This game should be called ED : Communism. People will go nuts if pressing the fire button with a medium laser twice will give you slightly less income than pressing it thrice with a small laser

Balancing is the process by which you give purpose to your various features as far as reward is concerned. Because if feature A requires half the effort of feature B but rewards the player twice as much, then players have four times as much of an incentive to use feature A over feature B. At which point nobody will use feature B, you will have wasted the resources spent to develop it, and players will grow bored four times as fast because they'll just be doing the same thing over and over.

 

[NeilF]

I think you'll find that it's modus operandi typical of FDev. They deploy a substandard implementation of something, and then later rehash it which makes the previous stuff redundant. Laser mining is now redundant, res sites are now redundant, Engineers replaced, Exploration replaced.

It's been obvious the only plan they had from the start was a big old galaxy, and then they bolted bits on. Badly.

I doubt you'll see a rejig of mining, though I do forsee a huge nerf hammer on the way.

Going forward, I think it'd be lovely to see them fix the bugs they should have fixed last year.

Understood, but I just cannot believe it was an intended design to end up with the gameplay we have now.

I spent an hour or so mining yesterday, and I'll confirm once again my experience/issues:-

1. Using the PWA means legacy mining is all but put on a shelf to collect dust and die. It certainly is not included in the new gameplay loop, which seems a shame. Intended outcome? Why?
2. Using the PWA means looking for anything other than motherlodes seems pointless. Brightly lit asteroids which are not motherlodes generally contain materials you simply are not interested in, so why waste time with them?
3. Surface and sub-surface deposits (ingoring those found on motherlodes) are all but pointless [due to 2]. ie: How often do you fire sub-surface missiles or abrasion blasters at non-motherlode asteroids?
4. Using the PWA solely to look for motherlodes seems a poor choice of gameplay outcome. Simply flying around looking for motherlodes? Surely mining should be more involved than this? ie: More time spent actually mining rather than flying with a button held down?
5. You're not finding many motherlodes/materials? Is this down to simply bad luck? Or could it be the hotspot has been mined significantly so its resources are low/depleted (as mentioned by FD). As mentioned in the OP, there surely needs to be this information available to CMDRs in the form of something like a Reserves %age figure?

If as you suggest, legacy mining is intended to be taken out at some point, that's fine, and as suggested in the OP, surface deposits could then be increased in quantity in effect to become the new form of it.

But ultimately, I'm just rather concerned than something has been designed, implemented, internally tested, beta tested, and yet has made into a Live release that just seems so unbalanced and functionally questionable. (How many/much of these issues will now be addressed?)

The opal cash cow was left in to bump player figures after a pretty buggged update.

Shareholders and investors love figures...

That's an interesting and slightly telling point TBH! Take away that current feature, and what's left?

Go to an Void Opal Hotspot and mine them using the new mechanics other than hunting for motherlodes... From what I've witnessed the mechancis just don't support it. ie: The PWA does really help you as it leads simply to "here's new mechanics", which invariable is surface deposits of materials you're not interested in, at all.

What was the (initial) design suppose to do on this front?

 

[Bortas]

1. Using the PWA means legacy mining is all but put on a shelf to collect dust and die. It certainly is not included in the new gameplay loop, which seems a shame. Intended outcome? Why?
2. Using the PWA means looking for anything other than motherlodes seems pointless. Brightly lit asteroids which are not motherlodes generally contain materials you simply are not interested in, so why waste time with them?
3. Surface and sub-surface deposits (ingoring those found on motherlodes) are all but pointless [due to 2]. ie: How often do you fire sub-surface missiles or abrasion blasters at non-motherlode asteroids?

Tbh I think the old method is indeed meant to become obsolete. I think it's quite clear from a logical point of view that hitting a motherlode is and should always be by far the most profitable thing to happen when mining. Specifically searching for motherlodes, ignoring all less profitable forms of mining is the natural consequence.

Using the PWA solely to look for motherlodes seems a poor choice of gameplay outcome. Simply flying around looking for motherlodes? Surely mining should be more involved than this? ie: More time spent actually mining rather than flying with a button held down?

I have done quite a lot of mining lately, and I can assure you that I spend only a small fraction of my time flying around searching for motherlodes. With a bit of practice, an A-grade PWA and a reasonably fast and agile ship (Python) it usually takes me 1-5 minutes to find the next motherlode. I spent the majority of my mining-time with placing and setting off charges, shooting off deposits from the inside of the fragments and waiting for my limpets to collect everything.

You're not finding many motherlodes/materials? Is this down to simply bad luck? Or could it be the hotspot has been mined significantly so its resources are low/depleted (as mentioned by FD). As mentioned in the OP, there surely needs to be this information available to CMDRs in the form of something like a Reserves %age figure?

Not quite sure about this, but aren't core roids meant to be persistent? So if you are not running into already cracked roids, chances are nobody has been in the area you are currently mining in, before. How this is going to play out exactly remains to be seen, once players have depleted enough of the reserves if that's even possible given how huge and plentiful the hotspots are.

But ultimately, I'm just rather concerned than something has been designed, implemented, internally tested, beta tested, and yet has made into a Live release that just seems so unbalanced and functionally questionable. (How many/much of these issues will now be addressed?)

I think replacing the old form of mining is fine. It leaves a few questions though:

1. Why did they even develop sub-surface missiles? Seems like a wast of dev time. Currently they could as well take them out.
2. Why didn't they just use mining lasers to shoot off surface deposits? No need to invent a new module for this. Just Mining lasers and Seismic Charge Launchers would have been sufficient.

 

[NeilF]

I have done quite a lot of mining lately, and I can assure you that I spend only a small fraction of my time flying around searching for motherlodes. With a bit of practice, an A-grade PWA and a reasonably fast and agile ship (Python) it usually takes me 1-5 minutes to find the next motherlode. I spent the majority of my mining-time with placing and setting off charges, shooting off deposits from the inside of the fragments and waiting for my limpets to collect everything.

You highlight two issues to me:-

1. You highlight the skewed nature of the current implementation. ie: You're solely searching for motherlodes? Then what's the point of all the lower teir mechanics. eg: Finding asteroids with loads of surface or sub-surface deposits of valuable (Void Opal?) minerals? Why bother with these mechanics if they're all but pointless due to balancing design?
2. Five minutes simply flying along holding a PWA button isn't engaging to me... (Indeed I experienced longer periods yesterday and I found it very dull, especially when I knew better balanced gameplay meant I could actually be mining instead!)

IMHO, mining should be a pyramid in effect about finding lucrative surface and sub-surface deposits, with motherlodes being a damn nice (rare) find. Not the simple be-all-end-all game loop by design...?

Not quite sure about this, but aren't core roids meant to be persistent? So if you are not running into already cracked roids, chances are nobody has been in the area you are currently mining in, before. How this is going to play out exactly remains to be seen, once players have depleted enough of the reserves if that's even possible given how huge and plentiful the hotspots are.

It's a bit vague and an unknown. Yesterday I certainly spent a period of several minutes flying around using the PWA using the current gameplay modus operandi of "hunt for motherlodes because it's what mining is now" - And realised it was rather a tawdry experience (for me). I'd rather have known I was wasting my time due to reduced reserves (others mining there), OR, would have prefered to have been actually mining (surface and sub-surface, even legacy!) instead of flying along with a button held down.

Why did they even develop sub-surface missiles? Seems like a wast of dev time. Currently they could as well take them out.

And that's my point Mining should surely have the gameplay-loop of mining surface/sub-surface deposits wiith motherlodes being a damn nice additional find? Not simply find the next motherlode... repeat?

ie: Finding a sub-surface deposit (of something vaulable) should be the next tier of reward up from a surface desosit and be a nice (regular) find. Shooting one, should spew out half a dozen or so fragments so they're a nice worthwhile reward!

Why didn't they just use mining lasers to shoot off surface deposits? No need to invent a new module for this. Just Mining lasers and Seismic Charge Launchers would have been sufficient.

Yes, mining lasers being held on target for half a second to dislodge a surface deposit would have worked.

 

[Vandaahl]

Balancing is the process by which you give purpose to your various features as far as reward is concerned. Because if feature A requires half the effort of feature B but rewards the player twice as much, then players have four times as much of an incentive to use feature A over feature B. At which point nobody will use feature B, you will have wasted the resources spent to develop it, and players will grow bored four times as fast because they'll just be doing the same thing over and over.

Oh I agree. It's just that the thread is 2 replies old and the first one starts about deep core mining earns more than yada. Then the next comes in and yaps about a Viper yielding more cash with mining than a T7 (which is bonkers). Most of these debates boil down towards credits yielding comparisons, like it is being the sole purpose of everything. Before you know, you'll see people coming up with things like this:

Conclusions - Balance Mechanics
IMHO the mining mechanics should be balanced from the bottom up. ie: You should be finding surface deposits more often then sub-surface, and finding sub-surface far more often than fissures (motherlodes). ie: A motherlode should be a nice bonus, not the be all and end all.

Huh, why? What should I find stuff the A way more then the B way? This is as arbitrary is it is now. You should need to mine deep cores in order to be able to refine the ore to exquisite focused crystals. Stuff you find on the surface or subsurface should be good enough for (flawed ) focused crystals only, or something... (I'm making stuff up as I go)

'Balance' should be found in a way that you need method A to one thing, and B to do the other. Not trying to find a balance between 2 methods that essentially do the same thing.

 

[Brrokk]

Mining now offers a variety of approaches, which is great. I see no need for "balance". I do the activities I want to do, not necessarily the activities which are easiest, pay the most credits, preferred by other people or intended by developers.

 

[Ozram]

Tbh I think the old method is indeed meant to become obsolete. I think it's quite clear from a logical point of view that hitting a motherlode is and should always be by far the most profitable thing to happen when mining. Specifically searching for motherlodes, ignoring all less profitable forms of mining is the natural consequence.



I have done quite a lot of mining lately, and I can assure you that I spend only a small fraction of my time flying around searching for motherlodes. With a bit of practice, an A-grade PWA and a reasonably fast and agile ship (Python) it usually takes me 1-5 minutes to find the next motherlode. I spent the majority of my mining-time with placing and setting off charges, shooting off deposits from the inside of the fragments and waiting for my limpets to collect everything.



Not quite sure about this, but aren't core roids meant to be persistent? So if you are not running into already cracked roids, chances are nobody has been in the area you are currently mining in, before. How this is going to play out exactly remains to be seen, once players have depleted enough of the reserves if that's even possible given how huge and plentiful the hotspots are.



I think replacing the old form of mining is fine. It leaves a few questions though:

1. Why did they even develop sub-surface missiles? Seems like a wast of dev time. Currently they could as well take them out.
2. Why didn't they just use mining lasers to shoot off surface deposits? No need to invent a new module for this. Just Mining lasers and Seismic Charge Launchers would have been sufficient.

Nono! Don’t take subsurface missiles out! Their gameplay is fun. Just change it so they are materials specific tools (and a viable alternative to SRV Foraging).

 

[Whitehair]

IMHO, mining should be about finding lucrative surface and sub-surface, with motherlodes being a damn nice (rare) find

As far as I can see it is exactly as you describe in that sentence. That players ignore anything other than motherlodes is down to the player choice. Other options are available and do not need to be removed.

 

[NeilF]

Mining now offers a variety of approaches, which is great. I see no need for "balance". I do the activities I want to do, not necessarily the activities which are easiest, pay the most credits, preferred by other people or intended by developers.

Consider what approach is the game leading you by the hand to do then? Motherlode --> Motherlode --> Motherlode?

Consider at the moment how the game would even allow you to undertake mining surface and sub-surface deposits to make a reasonable income?

Consider when was the last time you used an abrasion blaster or sub-surface missile (on a non-motherlode asterds) to obtain reasonable amounts of what you were after?

Consider if a more balanced, varied and interesting mechanic might lead you to mine asteroids rich in surface deposits you're interested in, with a nice further reward being ones with some valuable sub-surface deposits, and then sometimes you coming across a motherlode one?

As far as I can see it is exactly as you describe in that sentence. That players ignore anything other than motherlodes is down to the player choice. Other options are available and do not need to be removed.

Try it... Go to a hotspot, and locate asteroids (eg: using the PWA) not specifically looking for motherlodes. You'll simply find asteroid after asteroid after you'll ignore....

ie: The game rewards your efforts with failure after failure after failure to find anything of interest/worth... So why do it?

That's what I'm experiencing at least with the current mechanics...


As I've said countless times in this thread, when was the last time you used an abrasion blaster or sub-surface missile on a non-motherlode asteroid. Why is this? Consider if a more balanced, varied and interesting mechanic might lead you to mine asteroids rich in surface deposits you're interested in, with a nice further reward being ones with some valuable sub-surface deposits, and then sometimes you coming across a motherlode one?

 

[Konan]

There's no reason more balanced mechanics couldn't offer what ever level of income is wanted. Less, the same or more.

You're assuming that your opinion is the only one that is right. I feel it is very balanced. I do missions for my facrion.
That means that I'm not only looking for motherlodes, I'm looking for particular stuff and It requires me to use every tool that mining has. I enjoy the new tools and have a use for every one of them. Your ideas would screw my gameplay up. Every one doesn't play like you.....keep that in mind

 

[Brrokk]

when was the last time you used an abrasion blaster or sub-surface missile (on a non-motherlode asterds) to obtain reasonable amounts of what you were after?
...

Last night. Like I said, I do what I want and no-one needs to try to "balance" it to control my choices.

My mining Python carries all the types of mining equipment because I wouldn't feel like it was properly equipped otherwise.

 

[Konan]

I find the gameplay to be very balanced. When doing bgs missions I use each and every one of the new tools alongside legacy mining. Many of us like the new mechanics....let us keep enjoying them....

 

[NeilF]

You're assuming that your opinion is the only one that is right. I feel it is very balanced.

Huh? How can you pick fault with the statement of mine you quoted? I'm NOT saying the mechanics should pay less, the same or more? - "There's no reason more balanced mechanics couldn't offer what ever level of income is wanted. Less, the same or more."

I'm assuming nothing, only stating a fact!

My issue is NOT with payout/income, but the very nature of the balancing of the mining mechanic themselves. Do you not see an issue with the general goto mining loop being motherlode-->motherlode-->motherlode? Do you see possibly a more balanced and interesting experience being one which leads you to mine asteroids rich in surface deposits you're interested in, with a nice further reward being ones with some valuable sub-surface deposits, and then sometimes you coming across a motherlode one?

I do missions for my facrion.
That means that I'm not only looking for motherlodes, I'm looking for particular stuff and It requires me to use every tool that mining has. I enjoy the new tools and have a use for every one of them. Your ideas would screw my gameplay up. Every one doesn't play like you.....keep that in mind

OK, can you elaborate on this please? I'm interested...

 

[NeilF]

Last night. Like I said, I do what I want and no-one needs to try to "balance" it to control my choices.

My mining Python carries all the types of mining equipment because I wouldn't feel like it was properly equipped otherwise.

So the answer IS as I suspected? The current gameplay mechanics means you basically never use the abrasion blaster or sub-surface missiles on any asteroids other than motherlodes?

Demonstrate the choices open to you (and us) and go and mine void opals or anything of worth via something other than motherlode -> motherlode -> motherlode? Because I think you'll just ignore asteroid after asteroid after asteroid, rarely finding anything of interest/worth. And this current balance controls most people to instead just motherlode -> motherlode -> motherlode.

Personally I think the current mechanics and balance are skewed. I think you SHOULD be able to hunt solely for motherlodes if you wish, but that also a good income should still be viable from the lower part of the pyramid by finding plenty of valuable (wanted) materials from surface and sub-surface deposits...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

personally my view is mother lodes should be icing on the cake and not something we bank on, but just a bonus we come to that we can identify after doing other types of mining on it, that way all the other mining is not diminished at all, and would indeed be vital towards finding said motherlode!. (so once the surface is scoured and the asteroid depleted, it is then that we can detect that there is still something of note inside the asteroid, but the prospector can only report that AFTER the noise of the other valuables in the asteroid have been stripped out.

that said however IF it were me designing it, and if we had a programmable limpet controller, which i feel is vital now with missions such as the "give us fuel" etc..... i would have an "explosive limpet" be one of the things you can program a limpet to do and then that would be what we use to blow up an asteroid.

but that is just my view and tbh i can live with it as it is, it is fine, though i am waiting in the hope the payments get balanced a bit before i jump in again.

 

[Ozram]

personally my view is mother lodes should be icing on the cake and not something we bank on, but just a bonus we come to that we can identify after doing other types of mining on it, that way all the other mining is not diminished at all, and would indeed be vital towards finding said motherlode!. (so once the surface is scoured and the asteroid depleted, it is then that we can detect that there is still something of note inside the asteroid, but the prospector can only report that AFTER the noise of the other valuables in the asteroid have been stripped out.

that said however IF it were me designing it, and if we had a programmable limpet controller, which i feel is vital now with missions such as the "give us fuel" etc..... i would have an "explosive limpet" be one of the things you can program a limpet to do and then that would be what we use to blow up an asteroid.

but that is just my view and tbh i can live with it as it is, it is fine, though i am waiting in the hope the payments get balanced a bit before i jump in again.

Interesting. My view is that motherload are almost fine as they are because it’s a really fun activity. Perhaps the profits could be toned down a tad (1.1 or 1.2 million instead of 1.66 per Opal etc) but the value of bulk mining should go up competitively and the subsurface missile should be a material hunting tool to compete for mat gathering status with the SRV forage). Do that and suddenly all sorts of resource gathering activities suddenly become equally popular while totally different one from the other.

 

[NeilF]

personally my view is mother lodes should be icing on the cake and not something we bank on, but just a bonus we come to that we can identify after doing other types of mining on it, that way all the other mining is not diminished at all, and would indeed be vital towards finding said motherlode!.

Pretty much my view too...

I'd like to be able to mine, with scanner tools that help me find what I'm looking for. If an asteroid then contains it in surface, fine. Heck, legacy, fine! If it contains a sub-surface deposit of it, and when I hit that with a missile I get a nice bumper load of it (eg: 6+ fragment) great. And if it's a motherlode of it, happy days.

eg: If I went to a Low Temp Diamond hotspot I'd expect most asteroids to have at least a modicum of ice diamond surface deposits. Some then would have loads of surface deposits of them. Some of them would have one or more sub-surface deposits for nice (bigger) payout. And then, rarely, a motherlode of it...

though i am waiting in the hope the payments get balanced a bit before i jump in again.

The current spending minutes with the PWA button down doesn't really appeal to me in the current balance of motherlode -> motherlode -> motherlode gameplay loop. So I'm on the fence now hoping FD give it a damn good kick!

At the very least far far far more asteroids need what you're looking for in surface and sub-surface deposits...