Mining - Am I alone feeling it's unbalanced/not quite working?

[Daynen]

The main thing that bugs me about the new mining is that surface and subsurface mining really just seem like placeholders or consolation prizes. A core is indeed a motherlode--but why did it have to be so?

The new mining is really more about scanning, scanning, scanning, guessing a rock is bright enough, using a prospector, sighing when it's not, more scanning, scanning scanning, sighing loudly in exasperation when you FINALLY find a core rock--FINALLY--and then not having nearly as much fun as you should have blowing up a f r e a k i n g asteroid. It's honestly more about NOT mining! Seriously, blasting out a core rock is cool. I wish it were a little more dangerous, but that's because the game is CALLED Elite Dangerous. By the time I've prospected two dozen dud rocks that glowed like the sun, I'm left feeling like I just haven't opened enough lootboxes yet. I would prefer if asteroids in general were more destructible, regardless of how valuable or not the materials within might be. How many of us saw that first stream of exploding asteroids and thought it'd be an amazing way to ambush someone? Don't lie; you know you did. I know I did. I'm actually a bit disappointed at how the new fun is once again locked behind RNG, profit be damned.


There IS one thing I can appreciate about new mining though: it is far more conducive to mining as a wing or multicrew. Chapter 4 seems to have swung hard at socially oriented gameplay with both exploration and mining alike and in that specific regard I can approve.

 

[Brrokk]

The main thing that bugs me about the new mining is that surface and subsurface mining really just seem like placeholders or consolation prizes. A core is indeed a motherlode--but why did it have to be so?

The new mining is really more about scanning, scanning, scanning, guessing a rock is bright enough, using a prospector, sighing when it's not, more scanning, scanning scanning, sighing loudly in exasperation when you FINALLY find a core rock--FINALLY--and then not having nearly as much fun as you should have blowing up a f r e a k i n g asteroid. It's honestly more about NOT mining! Seriously, blasting out a core rock is cool. I wish it were a little more dangerous, but that's because the game is CALLED Elite Dangerous. By the time I've prospected two dozen dud rocks that glowed like the sun, I'm left feeling like I just haven't opened enough lootboxes yet. I would prefer if asteroids in general were more destructible, regardless of how valuable or not the materials within might be. How many of us saw that first stream of exploding asteroids and thought it'd be an amazing way to ambush someone? Don't lie; you know you did. I know I did. I'm actually a bit disappointed at how the new fun is once again locked behind RNG, profit be damned.


There IS one thing I can appreciate about new mining though: it is far more conducive to mining as a wing or multicrew. Chapter 4 seems to have swung hard at socially oriented gameplay with both exploration and mining alike and in that specific regard I can approve.

It's how you do it. I like to pick a likely asteroid (using the visual tells discussed elsewhere), prospect it, blast the surface with mining lasers while deploying collectors, then during one rotation plant seismic charges and zap surface and subsurface deposits, then back off to watch the explosion. Maximum profit!

Seriously, if anyone finds any of the mining options useless it's just because they've decided not to use them. That's fair enough if either you're restricted on hardpoints or you're prioritising credits-per-minute over everything, but don't blame FD for player decisions.

 

[Ozram]

I think the reason to go to a hot spot is to fill your hold with the material detected on the hot spot, regardless of extraction method.

Knowing you can equip any of the 4 types of mining extraction tools and fill your hold would mean that mining a hot spot is balanced between the methods.

Time is where using the Pulse Wave should come into play.

Brightest asteroids should contain highest amount of a desired material, not dictate extraction method.

You shouldnt be able to find core asteroids with gamey mechanics like “look for the pixel pop in” or “see how they are always the same shape”

If you find a high yield asteroid, it should be a mix of methods to extract.

If you are lucky, it’s a motherload. And if you, brought the right tools, you can save time by cracking it and filling your hold faster.

You can’t guarantee that a rock will have a core until you eyeball a fissure. Everything else hints at the possibility. Shape, size, shine... none of it is gamey. It’s one of the best mechanics in the game. Your suggestions would hegemonise mining, rather than reward different strategies. I disagree with your pov strongly and would suggest you’re talking based more on what you’re read than what you’ve experienced. Think you can recognise the rocks in such a gamey way and that it doesn’t involve skill, strategy and planing to locate them consistently? Let’s have a race and see who fills their hold first. Other types of mining need be brought up to par, core hunting doesn’t require being dragged down.

 

[Lobey]

I can guarentee a core pretty much every time now from visual alone, so I'm not wasting prospector limpets and can take less as a result - but then I have been doing it a bit much today ( I probably see pulses when heading for a cup of tea )
Don't just stick on Opals btw - everything in an icy except Bromelite is worth the time - we are talking the difference between making around 25mill and 30 mill on a run (32 ton hold plus 8 in the hopper), so don't turn your nose up at Alexandrite etc. I'll get 2 to 3 "core" asteroids within 30 min in my icy belt Grandiderite hotspot that I've been mining off and on for about a week now and I see no sign of depletion. I've even had two within mining range of each other (LTD's - mined one and then was able to start straight on the other), so I'm see-ing no real sign of depletion.
My super secret spot .... is in a very obvious and public space - I've seen one other commander in open - so maybe it was only obvious to me

 

[Ozram]

I can guarentee a core pretty much every time now from visual alone, so I'm not wasting prospector limpets and can take less as a result - but then I have been doing it a bit much today ( I probably see pulses when heading for a cup of tea )
Don't just stick on Opals btw - everything in an icy except Bromelite is worth the time - we are talking the difference between making around 25mill and 30 mill on a run (32 ton hold plus 8 in the hopper), so don't turn your nose up at Alexandrite etc. I'll get 2 to 3 "core" asteroids within 30 min in my icy belt Grandiderite hotspot that I've been mining off and on for about a week now and I see no sign of depletion. I've even had two within mining range of each other (LTD's - mined one and then was able to start straight on the other), so I'm see-ing no real sign of depletion.
My super secret spot .... is in a very obvious and public space - I've seen one other commander in open - so maybe it was only obvious to me

Yep. I set up a single core miner with 16 tonnes and a size 4 refinery (10 extra tonnes) on a Cobra4. Its a specialised loadout and it covers a single core almost exactly. Because I recognise the asteroids without the prospector limpet I only take six limpets (in case a few get blown up between the rocks or if a core is Bromelite which isn’t worth it in such low numbers.

 

[Sysmon]

The new tools are fun, but do require some balance passes. I'm pretty happy with the payouts, although I don't go out of the way to get the best possible price for the fruits of my labour. My time is valuable too, so nearest system in boom is usually fine for me to off-load the preciousses to.

I think we actually agree mostly this time, dear OP. At least on that the mechanics may need a bit of balancing.

For the new mining, I grabbed my T-10 and kitted it out with all the old and new mining tools. That means a double set of small mining lasers in addition to the SS missiles, abrasion blaster and the seismic launcher. I sacrificed a size 7 slot to get 4 collector limpets running, but don't need that much cargo space anyway for mining. That still leaves 3 medium hardpoints for anti-baddies equipment, as well as room for a fighter and an SRV.

My philosophy is to mine my own way, then see how it fits with the mechanics. I'd like to find use for all tools, maybe even on the same rock. That's almost, but not quite, possible:

1. There are none of the new and exiting ore types outside cores. I find that a bit gamey, as the asteroids are likely to be fragments of larger bodies as much as having grown on the spots. If you look at some rocky asteroids, they do seem to have concentric rings suggesting they grew on the spot. Or maybe FDev is playing with their stratigraphy tools for building landable planets with liquids and atmospheres? I hope the latter. However, I would like to see small amounts of the new exotic ores in subsurface and surface deposits, maybe even in < 1% amounts in the general ore matrix that we target with the old mining lasers. LT diamonds can be as valuable as the new ore types, and can be found in all the new deposits types, I know. But why not let small amounts of the new ore types into other deposits besides core and the surface deposits we generate when we crack the rocks?

2. The spatial limitation of exotic ores means the mining lasers are really only for mining for missions or for collecting Materials, which don't seem to be generated by the new mining tools. So I use the mining lasers for filling up Materials buckets only, so everything else gets filtered out.

3. Because LT diamonds are the only highly valuable commodity that lives outside the rock cores, the SS missile launcher is really only useful in icy belts. If the ores are mixed up a bit more, we could use all the tools to mine an asteroids in rocky and metallic belts as well. In case of a few icy blocks, I have first ablated off the Materials on the surface, then knocked out surface and subsurface LT diamond deposits before cracking the rock open with seismic charges. That felt very satisfying.

4. The markets could be better balanced. It's nice to be able to load off 10s and 100s of millions CR value of ore at stations, but for small economies that must really wreck the local market I would guess. Maybe a limitation like in Daggerfall and such games, where the vendor had limited funds to buy with?

5. The pulse scanner return should depend on rock contents, not what methods are needed to get at the deposits. That was an annoyance to me in the beta, and still is. If the exotic ores are allowed to "bleed" a bit out of the cores, this issue would be greatly diminished. I'd be perfectly happy to be able to bunker-bust a few tonnes of Alexandrite or Rhodplumsite out of a rock, instead of just hunting for core deposits all the time. Those are still motherlodes, albeit small ones...

S

 

[Vasious]

I disagree with the OPs thoughts that Legacy mining is possible needing to go

Conclusions - Legacy Mining
FD need to deside if legacy mining is a thing or not, and balance the game accordingly. Either throw it out and make surface deposits the new norm. Or include legacy mining as the bottom rung of the ladder, included in the gameplay and not ignored by it primarily by the PWA completely ignoring it.

In Defense of Legacy Mining

Yes, for CR, the Core mining is the current thing.
But I have yet to have see any missions for Core mining commdities

Picking up several INF++++ missions (more valuable than CR) for mining, I do still head to a Hotspot, but instead ignore the PWA and just prospect for the Mission Commodities
Legacy Mining supplies the bulk of the mission Commodities
If the roid has surface or subsurface deposits of mission Commodities that is a bonus for getting the mission target quantities quicker as mining lasers can be run at the same time as the abrasion blaster and mining missiles.
Even solo mining missions ask for so many tonnes, the extra tonnes from surface and subsurface are a true boon as a single subsurface despot might yield an extra 2 or 3 tonnes, which can double the yield of a 'roid with ~10% of the Mining mission commodity.

That alone is why I would always carry the Abrasion and Subsurface missiles for Mining missions!

If you stumble on a Motherlode, well that a bonus on the CR side on things, but may no progress the missions

If one was to use the PWA to chose the roid's you may be missing the roids with high % Mining Mission Commodities slowing you completion of the mission.

For this even the Type 7 lacking the Class 2 hardpoints, still will be a great mission mining ship, as it can still mine roid; surface and subsurface deposits of the mission commodities far more effectively than the above cited Viper Mk.III if one say had three missions of ~25 tonnes of a Mining Mission Commodity.

Just as if there is a CG for the 3 Ps the Type 7 would be a better choice than the Viper Mk.III

We shouldn't treat alll mining as the same when judging it, as there are multiple reason to mine.
Just as Small ships can be just as effective as large ones for Rare Goods trading, some ships may be better Core miners, vs Mission Miners.

 

[DaggerSnake]

It could be bad luck or the fact FD's depletion mechanics are at play... Hence the suggestion in the OP, that a Hotspot's reserves/depletion are shown to CMDRs in the system information (or imagine if in contacts pane it said "Palladium Hotspot [80%]") so a CMDR knows how compromised it is.

We also need to be told how this depletion affects a hotspot. I fear it is simply motherlodes. Ideally (simply) the value should just reduce the dice rolls for the frequency/quantity of the hot material in the hotspot. So going to a 100% hotspot gives an advantage over going to a 20% one...

I’ve noticed hot spot diameter variation. Do you think this is a visual indicator? Makes sense to just shrink until gone.

 

[Han Zulu]

I’ve noticed hot spot diameter variation. Do you think this is a visual indicator? Makes sense to just shrink until gone.

Oh. Interesting. I think the one I'm in was a bit smaller.

 

[Vedmo]

I’ve noticed hot spot diameter variation. Do you think this is a visual indicator? Makes sense to just shrink until gone.

I've done a DSS while exploring a previously undiscovered system and seen small hotspots along side big hotspots. Not to say that would rule out the possibility of them shrinking, could be some just start smaller.

 

[insanephoton]

I disagree with the OPs thoughts that Legacy mining is possible needing to go



In Defense of Legacy Mining

Yes, for CR, the Core mining is the current thing.
But I have yet to have see any missions for Core mining commdities

Picking up several INF++++ missions (more valuable than CR) for mining, I do still head to a Hotspot, but instead ignore the PWA and just prospect for the Mission Commodities
Legacy Mining supplies the bulk of the mission Commodities
If the roid has surface or subsurface deposits of mission Commodities that is a bonus for getting the mission target quantities quicker as mining lasers can be run at the same time as the abrasion blaster and mining missiles.
Even solo mining missions ask for so many tonnes, the extra tonnes from surface and subsurface are a true boon as a single subsurface despot might yield an extra 2 or 3 tonnes, which can double the yield of a 'roid with ~10% of the Mining mission commodity.

That alone is why I would always carry the Abrasion and Subsurface missiles for Mining missions!

If you stumble on a Motherlode, well that a bonus on the CR side on things, but may no progress the missions

If one was to use the PWA to chose the roid's you may be missing the roids with high % Mining Mission Commodities slowing you completion of the mission.

For this even the Type 7 lacking the Class 2 hardpoints, still will be a great mission mining ship, as it can still mine roid; surface and subsurface deposits of the mission commodities far more effectively than the above cited Viper Mk.III if one say had three missions of ~25 tonnes of a Mining Mission Commodity.

Just as if there is a CG for the 3 Ps the Type 7 would be a better choice than the Viper Mk.III

We shouldn't treat alll mining as the same when judging it, as there are multiple reason to mine.
Just as Small ships can be just as effective as large ones for Rare Goods trading, some ships may be better Core miners, vs Mission Miners.

Did FD ditch Bromellite mining missions then? I've seen more than one Bromellite core out in the ice rings.

 

[Vasious]

Did FD ditch Bromellite mining missions then? I've seen more than one Bromellite core out in the ice rings.

Well if there are Bromellite cores then bonus for those missions
But for the Osmium, Praseodymium, Samarium, Methanol Monohydrate Crystals etc missions, are there Cores Hotspots for those commodities?

 

[Konan]

Agreed. Here is how I mine.

1. My faction is in a terraforming system so there are lots of mining missions there. I choose a couple....let's say bromelite.

2. I head to a bromelite hotspot and begin searching with the PWA. I'm not only looking for motherlodes but at all shiny asteroids.

3. Bromelite does not come in motherlode asteroids but is plentiful in others. I find one and do my sub surface mining and follow up with surface mining. I then use legacy mining to finish off the asteroid.

4. As I continue to do this I mine any motherlodes I find as well. I'll sub surface the motherlodes rock first for any materials i deem worthy, surface the rest and then blow it up. If PWA had indicated other stuff beforehand such as LT diamonds, I'll finish off the motherlodes rock with legacy mining.

5. It doesn't take me long to fill up my python and turn in my missions. I'm helping my faction at the same time and my personal wealth increases. Not to mention I had a blast (literally and figuratively) doing it. Also my gameplay has affected the market and the BGS.

6. The only chink in the mining game imho and it's a small one, is more hotspots like the bromelite for other materials. I have seen painite, platinum and bromelite but none for the less valuable materials. It's true that for the most part many are everywhere and don't need hotspots (oxygen and water come o mind). But some of the metal materials could have hotspots.

I love the new mining and I think if you're just hunting motherlodes you're limiting your potential....and fun

P.S. There is some skill required using the sub surface and abrasion blaster tools on a fast spinning asteroid. It is a skill worth perfecting and fun as well. Imho it separates the good miners from the bad uns. .

 

[Yure]

Love new mining mechanics! Mining missions need to be rebalanced so that you don't have to gather a ridiculous amount of minerals for current pay.

That is not to say that price needs to increase, just that the amount required needs to be considerable lower.

 

[NeilF]

I disagree with the OPs thoughts that Legacy mining is possible needing to go

In my defense I did state a case for getting rid of it and keeping it Indeed you even quoted it

FD need to deside if legacy mining is a thing or not, and balance the game accordingly. Either throw it out and make surface deposits the new norm. Or include legacy mining as the bottom rung of the ladder, included in the gameplay and not ignored by it primarily by the PWA completely ignoring it.

My point (possibly not made well) is that I feel legacy mining is sort of out on a limb rather than actually a part of the mining gameplay loop.

eg: If the PWA changed completely in nature to highlight materials instead of "here's new gameplay", then all of a sudden a highlighted asteroid could contain deposits in legacy minign form, surface or sub-surface deposits, or of course fissures...

The other alternative is (IMHO) to once again make the PWAS report on materials instead of "gameplay", do away with legacy mining, and simply have far more surface deposits, in effect to take over from legacy mining.

If others feel legacy mining is still sitting nicely in the mechanics, fair enough

 

[NeilF]

I’ve noticed hot spot diameter variation. Do you think this is a visual indicator? Makes sense to just shrink until gone.

That's interesting actually... But it's a bit vague if it is surely?

A dedicated value, even if approximate say in the system information would surely be better? eg: A percentage, or imagine if next to hopspots on the target panel there was a five pip horizontal bar, with the more lit up, the better the reserves (in effect showing hotspots at approx 0%, 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% or 100%).


Ultimately we just need to know what FD have given to us, and roughly how it works. Because my fear is it's simply motherlodes being affected by this depletion, instead of a broader affect of the materials across the entire hotspot.

 

[through the hole backwards]

That's interesting actually... But it's a bit vague if it is surely?

A dedicated value, even if approximate say in the system information would surely be better? eg: A percentage, or imagine if next to hopspots on the target panel there was a five pip horizontal bar, with the more lit up, the better the reserves (in effect showing hotspots at approx 0%, 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% or 100%).


Ultimately we just need to know what FD have given to us, and roughly how it works. Because my fear is it's simply motherlodes being affected by this depletion, instead of a broader affect of the materials across the entire hotspot.

The actual presence of a hotspot is indicative of the quality of the reserve, if it is not producing, as you call them , motherlodes, then it would perhaps be wise to assume that they have already been depleted and either move on in search of them in other locations , or perhaps revert to legacy mining or abrasion or sub surface displacement mining if one wishes to remain in that location. I enjoy the lack of spoonfeeding we are given in terms of the mechanics of the game , the trial and error gives a player the chance to feel better rewarded if they can be bothered to work things out for themselves.

 

[NeilF]

5. The pulse scanner return should depend on rock contents, not what methods are needed to get at the deposits. That was an annoyance to me in the beta, and still is. If the exotic ores are allowed to "bleed" a bit out of the cores, this issue would be greatly diminished. I'd be perfectly happy to be able to bunker-bust a few tonnes of Alexandrite or Rhodplumsite out of a rock, instead of just hunting for core deposits all the time. Those are still motherlodes, albeit small ones...

Absolutely totally agree. [Note: I've changed the order of your comments as I see this as the most involved one...]

The question is what material or materials is it reporting on? At least obviously the hotspot material, but my suggestion is it should also report on a number of other ones too (eg: three others)? Two approaches to this:-

1. There's a hard coded list that for a specific hotspot type A, materials B, C and D are also included in the PWA scan. So your PWA reports on the combined amount of all A, B, C & D in asteroids.
2. A hotspot has the primary material, but also three other common materials (generated by the stellar forge engine). Your PWA reports on the combined amount of all four of these in asteroids. So this would mean there would be some truly valuable hotspots which have the ideal A, B, C, D common materials in them.

And this would mean [in combination with your 5th point-not included] if we have something like Void Opals which are not found in surface deposits (?), in a Void Opal Hotspot, while Void Opals could be found in quantity in sub-surface and motherlodes, it would be the other materials being highlighted by the PWA accounting for surface deposits being highlighted.

1. There are none of the new and exiting ore types outside cores. I find that a bit gamey, as the asteroids are likely to be fragments of larger bodies as much as having grown on the spots. If you look at some rocky asteroids, they do seem to have concentric rings suggesting they grew on the spot. Or maybe FDev is playing with their stratigraphy tools for building landable planets with liquids and atmospheres? I hope the latter. However, I would like to see small amounts of the new exotic ores in subsurface and surface deposits, maybe even in < 1% amounts in the general ore matrix that we target with the old mining lasers. LT diamonds can be as valuable as the new ore types, and can be found in all the new deposits types, I know. But why not let small amounts of the new ore types into other deposits besides core and the surface deposits we generate when we crack the rocks?

To clarify, you're saying if you just jump in a random part of a ring (not a hotspot) there's no materials or none of the new mining mechanics?

2. The spatial limitation of exotic ores means the mining lasers are really only for mining for missions or for collecting Materials, which don't seem to be generated by the new mining tools. So I use the mining lasers for filling up Materials buckets only, so everything else gets filtered out.

Which to me feels like legacy mining is sort of a clunky left over and not incorporated into the general mining gameplay loop. Hence the suggestion of bringing it into the loop by or just doing away with it.

Bringing it into the loop - Make the PWA report on materials not "asteroid gameplay type". A bright rock might then have materiels you're interested in but be legacy, or new mechanics.

Do away with legacy mining - Again make the PWA report on materials not "asteroid gameplay type". Put more surface deposits across asteroids, in effect to take over from legacy mining.

ps: There's always been the notion that mining lasers should be used inplace of abrasion blasters of course. I have no strong feelings eitherway on this myself.

 

[Bortas]

3. Bromelite does not come in motherlode asteroids but is plentiful in others. I find one and do my sub surface mining and follow up with surface mining. I then use legacy mining to finish off the asteroid.

Not sure, if there are Bromelite hotspots, but I definetely hit several Bomelite motherlodes in a Void Opal hotspot.

 

[Konan]

Not sure, if there are Bromelite hotspots, but I definetely hit several Bomelite motherlodes in a Void Opal hotspot.

Interesting, I've not seen a bromelite core deposit asteroid yet.....thanks for the heads up! I'll keep an eye out...and btw..I have seen many bromelite hotspots....