Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Unlocking and buying engineering: No.

The unlock grinds range from tedious to infuratingly awful. Few CMDRs do them (successfully at least) without guides or at least 3rd party websites because it's so stupidly convoluted.

Blueprint pins are weak and let you make quick mockups of what you really want, at best. They don't apply experimentals (in some cases the most important part of the mod) and the fact that certain engineers have many high value mods while others few or none means you end up flying about 700ly to kit a ship. While one could say, "well that's a reasonable investment for such a powerful build", the fact of the matter is for certain types of gameplay (mostly PvP, but also extreme long range jump, canyon racers, and a few others) having full G5 and experimentals is basically a pre-requisite. So they're just forcing thousands of light years of jumps no one likes.

Materials management is atrocious. 3 types of currencies, with 2 grouped onto one screen and 1 on another, Each currency has 5, but sometimes 4, sub-currencies. Sub-currencies have a rarity grade that has no actual connection to how difficult it is to acquire (I can fill up on G5 imperial shielding in 15 minutes from logon to finish on any day any time. But I have to fly to a trader or surface prospect or barnacle for lowly arsenic). 3 types of mat traders, never at the same station. More useless jumping. Absolutely no way to know what's needed for a build without 3rd party tools. Incredibly non intuitive naming conventions ("Military Grade Alloys" are subtype "Thermic" but "Phase Alloys" are subtype "Alloys"). And it used to be worse!

[My wish: Shinrarta should have all engineers. All mat traders should be at shinrarta, and also at every engineer. If FDev wants to insist elite rank is still something special - despite ease of acquisition - well then give a truly special perk, even beyond the very convenient aspect of Jameson]

In practice, casual to medium players give up, frequent players find max farm techniques that have nothing to do with design intentions or fun, and the middle ground kind of gets somewhere but then, frustrated, settles for something vastly superior than casual player builds, but vastly inferior to frequent player builds.

Usage of engineers: Mixed

Some parts of engineering are OP in my opinion, particularly some godrolled legacies - I've seen claims of 300% HD shield boosters. The counters (reverb cascade, feedback cascade, fletchettes) are mostly band-aids.

Healing lazers are stupidly overpowered, and a continual source of bitterness in PvP groups.

But there are customizations that are neat, and it's nice to be able to really tweak a ship to suit its role. This is the redeeming aspect.

To some extent, engineering also erased the original ship roles. For isntance, the vulture's lack of power, which was supposed to balance its top notch flight characteristics, is just a non-issue with overcharged.

 

[lecorsobreton]

Well, it's woking in the solo only. I'm playing in Open, and I should be prepared for some random PvP. G2 rolls are not competitive vs heavily armored and overcharged combat ship, even flying the one with shield boosters stacked. If the game was solo-only, I'd never complain about this things, considering them as a progression component.

But we have an MMO game with the competitive element. And the competition is won by the one who spent more time grading his ship. That's not fair to the players, so FDev deserve all the criticism they may hear about it, even if the critics is not contructive.

That's their work to react on the feedback, or they will loose customers. Oh, wait, they won't, because many people love grinding, and are ready to attack anyone who don't. That's the reason why FDev completely ignore all suggestions, bug tickets or another kind of feedback - people still consume the product they get.

I play in Open too and in a fairly populated system (Diaguandri) and my PvP encounters are rare, and when someone tries to murder me, I high-wake. I don't mind the interaction, I'm just not that great a pilot. I looking for the experience more than the rest. So a bit of engineering here and there has helped me survive.

 

[Old Duck]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

 

[Red Anders]

You do know the red squiggly lines mean something right?

From memory they mean he has dyslexia so really, not going to help.

 

[sewerratuk]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

There were several 'balance' passes prior to engineering but current vanilla are basically what they have always been. I still preferred it as the playing field was a lot more level, most complaints were about small ships using silent running... Fun times

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

NO
I only engineer FSD for bigger distance and thrusters for better ship handling on high-g planets.

The only point is getting a bonus on the standard module. But there's no fun in any of its aspect.

1. Getting materials: repetitive and not fun.
No fun in holding a button to scan FSD wake. No fun in being forced to fight to get manufactured material when you don't like the combat part of the game. The request of materials is too high considering that:
-each roll requires more quantity of multiple materials
-each grade requires more rolls
-each module of the same type requires same loop all over again. If you engineer a 5 size FSD, the moment you buy a bigger one (6 for Anaconda or 7 for the Cutter) you have to go through the complete process all over again, which is not the case for the Guardian Tech Brokers.

2. Material Traders: the trade costs are offensive. Those should be drastically reduced.

3. Engineering is just click until complete or until you run out of material. There's no player engagement. No experience nor ability will improve your engineered module. It's all about click to complete a circle.

HOW I WOULD IMPROVE IT:

1. Materials
Players should get materials through normal gameplay:
Materials should be mission bonus achieved for extra activities or for completing them in very short time (not an alternative to credits). You should also get materials by achieving new ranks or improving reputation/influence with factions. You should get materials also by selling exploration data and getting bounty vouchers. In this way you should find yourself restocked with material just playing the game. You grind only when you need the rarest or you need big quantity for some other reason.

2. Modifications
Once a module has been engineered it should be possible to apply the same modification to all new modules. Same as Guardian Technology is. We only need 1 guardian blue print fo unlock all FSD booster, we don't need to go through the process and scan an Orb everytime we want to buy one.

3. Material Traders cost should be halved.

4. Introduce new gameplay that requires the player interaction to go throuh the engineering process. The engineers don't do the job for you they just tell you how to do it. So Engineers still need to exist but the fate is in our own hands.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

Vanilla pretty much stayed vanilla. The thing devaluing these modules is the powercreep seeping into the AI spawntables. You end up with unfun / unplayable crap that you once grinded your rear off for and now have to grind again to make it work again. It's ridiculous.

 

[Stigbob]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

Nope they were the same. It made no difference at all. Prior to engineering people complained it was unbalanced as their unshielded traders were no match for armed ships much the same as it is now. The cure was always knowing how (and when) to high wake, exactly the same as now.

Engineering didn't even widen the gap, as traders could just get extra tanky if they wanted.

It also provided pure speed builds which are absolutely gank proof.

 

[Sylow]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

The modules were not directly nerfed. But keep in mind, before engineers came around, it wasn't only us players who had no engineered modules. The NPCs also didn't have any engineered equipment. When 2.1 was released, NPCs were heavily engineered. (Not speaking about the bugged NPC weapons, where an NPC could for example have a multicannon where every single shot did railgun damage. ) That was tuned back a lot again soon afterwards, only higher ranked NPCs still had engineered equipment. Where they again went over the top. NPCs fell far behind on the equipment curve. It turned out that a mere difference of only +700% defense, along with also high advantages in other aspects, actually makes things hard to balance. This really surprised FD, it seems.

So yes, the power creep was and is real and of course NPCs by now are more of a pushover. There's just no middle ground between "reasonable challenge for new players" and "engineered on par to a veteran player".

That being said, the modules themselves were not as bad as you think them to be. The system worked out very well. Of course, you had to make compromises. The classical Vulture for example could never power a full A-rated setup. When today somebody asks for help there, the answer is to engineer the power plant. At those times, people had to do much more finetuning. Often Vultures were flown with D-rated thrusters and a close eye to the ships mass. As long as you keep your Vultures mass under control, D-rated thrusters still allow the ship to be at maximum turn rates. Just as well my Courier at those times had a very lean setup. Only if you kept the mass down, it was able to shine.

These days, my Courier has a lot of lightweight engineering done. Even when i slap in a vehicle hangar (heresy in old times), my Courier just looses some top speed but almost no turn rate. And that's while still carrying A-rated shield boosters and other stuff, which i'd not even have dared to think of on my old Courier.

Also note that in old times small ships were potent combat units. You didn't have to expect to fight enemies with resists at cap and inflated shield numbers. So even a small ship was able to drop an enemies shields in reasonably short time. You didn't have to expect dirty drives. (Many medium ships these days handle like small ships handled in old times. ) So you actually had a real agility advantage.

All in all, before engineers setting up a ship was a different game. It was not about how long you grinded to unlock the engineers. It was not about how much materials you gathered to get all the engineering and special effects you wanted. You just had to have credits, and even then credits were easy enough to get. The art was in mixing and matching equipment. And thanks to only needing credits, you just could set up a ship, try it, return to base and rework it. You could get everything done in game. External planing tools existed, but unlike now were not necessary. Now you better use those tools to plan in advance. Massive material costs by now prohibit wild experimentation. Most people just can't afford to fully engineer some modules for a short test flight, to then sell them, buy them one size bigger or smaller and fully engineer them again.

A well built ship was a force to be reckoned with, no matter the size. Which of course meant that some of the best pilots guarded the secrets of their ships setup like their eyeball. It was a different time and a different game. I know there's no going back, but if we had the choice, i'd immediately do that.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

Yes. Before engineers came around, i also was a casual duel fighter. Engineers made me give up that activity. Even before engineers i was just a mediocre PvP pilot and then having to grind for ages to get an all god rolled ship was just too much for me. Now we don't have the god rolls any more, but i still don't feel the incentive to return.

 

[Auronio]

To the OP's question.

I liked it. Despite the grind.
It had a level of uncertainty with finding USSs or elements, the rolls were partially unpredictable and for a god roll you needed to work.
I never liked the quantity restriction on collected mats and data.

Nowadays everybody can have a god roll - even though I kept a few legacy engineered modules where I believe the old roll was better - and it's more or less a thing which can be done en passant.
Just collecting mats from destroyed ships, scanning ships and a few USSs, elements yes, still planetary surfaces. Mission rewards plus some material/data trading.
More comfortable but you become/became also more complacent.
It's still a grind but easy-peasy compared to the old process.

The funny thing is - I don't engineer anymore. Or very rarely. Updated my main modules and weapons in my 3-5 main ships after the engineering change and that's/was it.
Not buying new ships - or when I do it like with the Mamba - they soon end up collecting dust in the shipyard sharing the same fate like my other 45 ships.

 

[Krieger]

And thanks to only needing credits, you just could set up a ship, try it, return to base and rework it. You could get everything done in game. External planing tools existed, but unlike now were not necessary. Now you better use those tools to plan in advance. Massive material costs by now prohibit wild experimentation. Most people just can't afford to fully engineer some modules for a short test flight, to then sell them, buy them one size bigger or smaller and fully engineer them again.

A well built ship was a force to be reckoned with, no matter the size. Which of course meant that some of the best pilots guarded the secrets of their ships setup like their eyeball. It was a different time and a different game. I know there's no going back, but if we had the choice, i'd immediately do that.

This^
I miss this tremendously. Always thinking about ways to squeeze a little more out of a ship. Then trying it out immediately and thinking again if it didn't work. Often it also meant changing the way you flew the ship (tactically) to get the full advantage of a setup. Because power, DPS and HP of a ship weren't abundant you had to think more during combat, e.g. you had to think about when to boost because the slow recharge could get you killed if a boost didn't bring the advantage you hoped for. Same with firing weapons, since weapons drained the PD in seconds, better hold fire until in a good position so the shot wasn't wasted. Ah, the good times....

 

[EUS]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

If you consider massive increases to heat generation from weapon use, and reduction of ammo for heat sinks a nerf, then yes, nerf'd before RNGers were released.

 

[CMDR Jayce MacLeod]

I actually enjoy the process of engineering. Collecting the materials, traveling to the individual engineers and getting my ships worked on, I enjoy it all, especially in recent patches and updates... it's a much better system now then when it was launched.

I have about 40 ships now, including one of every type. Every single ship I own is engineered in some way, most heavily. So yeah, I thoroughly enjoy it!

 

[Old Duck]

Also note that in old times small ships were potent combat units. You didn't have to expect to fight enemies with resists at cap and inflated shield numbers. So even a small ship was able to drop an enemies shields in reasonably short time. You didn't have to expect dirty drives. (Many medium ships these days handle like small ships handled in old times. ) So you actually had a real agility advantage. .

I absolutely hate this (the bold part)... The rest of the quote sounds like paradise!

 

[Branithar]

In general, engineering is pretty fun. Unlocking engineers is a great introduction to different types of gameplay: exploring, smuggling, mining, bounty hunting and fighting in wars. Once you figure out where to get certain mats, gathering materials isn’t too frustrating, and luckily they have the material traders now. And seeing just how far I can push my engineered explorations ships, and watching a my trader releasing a barrage of mines and instantly destroying pirate’s shields and knocking their thrusters offline is pretty satisfying.

 

[Blackcompany]

New HGE system is garbage.

I'm confused as to how that's any different from any other aspect of Engineering...

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

I can fully understand this. I sometimes doubt my own sanity for having dones as much engineering as I have.

 

[Sylow]

I absolutely hate this (the bold part)... The rest of the quote sounds like paradise!

Just curious, why do you hate it?

I mean yes, ships generally before engineers turned a bit slower. That's one of the things where i have to give engineers credit: it made combat in ED faster. Formerly ships in ED only turned quickly in promo videos, but not in game. After engineers struck, at least some ships now are able to turn as fast as those promos advertises. But that's true for all sizes. Large and medium ships got much more agile with engineers. And while small ships also gained some agility, the bigger ones gained more out of these changes. It's much harder for a fully engineered light ship (and almost impossible for some of the slower small ships) to reliably stay out of the firing arc of a fully engineered large ship than to do so when no engineering was around.

Mind you, i'm not saying that it can't be done, but engineers clearly shifted the odds in favor of medium and large ships, even before looking at shield inflation. (Which actually even before engineers happened was a thing. There already was much discussion about shield boosters before 2.1. We had no idea how much worse this would get thanks to engineers. )

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I'm confused as to how that's any different from any other aspect of Engineering...

Not sure why that poster thought is was garbage. It is garbage, but at least now it's super incredibly easy garbage.

The new system is basically this. Go to population system with criteria needed for G5 of choice (e.g. imperial faction for imperial shielding, faction in war or faction famine or alliance faction or whatever for different G5 mat).

Scan nav beacon,

Low wake and pick an HGE with+ 20 minutes left. (If none exists, try next system)

Go to HGE and collect G5s.

Log out, log in, low wake, 180 degree turn, drop on very close USS (which is in fact the HGE, you just lost bav beacon info on log), and collect mats. Repeat.


The old system was basically fly in the middle of nowhere and pray. So this is better garbage.

 

[Blackcompany]

Not sure why that poster thought is was garbage. It is garbage, but at least now it's super incredibly easy garbage.

The new system is basically this. Go to population system with criteria needed for G5 of choice (e.g. imperial faction for imperial shielding, faction in war or faction famine or alliance faction or whatever for different G5 mat).

Scan nav beacon,

Low wake and pick an HGE with+ 20 minutes left. (If none exists, try next system)

Go to HGE and collect G5s.

Log out, log in, low wake, 180 degree turn, drop on very close USS (which is in fact the HGE, you just lost bav beacon info on log), and collect mats. Repeat.


The old system was basically fly in the middle of nowhere and pray. So this is better garbage.

Perhaps.

But free time is too precious to waste on "less smelly" garbage when good, well built games with engaging mechanics exist.