If I wanted a 'radio-tuning' game I would have rather bought an old radio.

[IndigoWyrd]

No I am not IndigoWyrd, you are assuming I am despite clearly understanding that I have access to no more information than you.

I am assuming it's an oversight because if it isn't it's an insult to FDev. I don't believe they would do this deliberately (or not care) if they thought they had a choice, so I infer they must have thought there was no choice. And at the beginning of the Beta this was arguably the case. But not by the end of beta, and not in the live game. The justifications for removing the old stuff disappeared with changes made in beta, leaving no justification for removing them. It could be argued that those changes should not have been made, but no one has and I do not either because it was a good idea that benefits everyone and disadvantages no one. As with not removing the old modules.

I don't need to know how a thing works to be able to see what it does IndigoWyrd, and neither do you

Do you know how this works:

You probably should, because if you don't know how it works, and say "Oh, a pretty stone." stick in your pocket and take it home you'll be dead before the week is out. This is Uranium-238, and you can't see what it does (emit radiation), so you do have to know "how it works".

Code is not unlike U-238. You do have to know what it does, if you're wanting changes to be made to it, which you are. You cannot simply "inject" code and hope for the best, even if that code was previously part of a program. Know anything about programming or coding? I do, though I'll admit it's quite out-of-date (though if Elite had been written in Assembly, the Linux people would be a bit happier), but certain aspects of that, like the fundamentals, are still applicable. Variables and Declarations and all that fun stuff.

You present as if doing this is just some simple matter of plugging in a few lines of code, and it is assuredly not.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Also if you guys are speculating about code, my speculation about code is even dumber..

See i don't think its possible without work for the nav panel to be populated while at the same time preventing the system map to display.

Who am i kidding its literally a conditional in the map code and a tracked value somewhere in their system context.

Anything is possible in code its certainly design.

EDIT: Also given changes to any large codebase are strongly controlled in any industry.. developers don't have the permission to make changes however good and required without following the sdlc. Ie, the changed has to be first budgeted and then make it through the "design committee" and the output from that group.....

 

[Riverside]

Im pretty sure its deliberate. There's actually some design gottchas that forced their hand. Its probably interesting to wonder if frontier were well meaning but caved to their own design, or this is another one of those crime and punishment we're right and you're wrong events.

- Frontier needed to exempt bubble players from using the FSS. They invented some whacked out logic that you have a constantly synced connection to universal cartographics that only updated once you jumped into the system. The sad part about this is, the functionality from this "community exploration / we're scared pooless of what combat players forced to use the fss would say" feature is its doing the exact same thing as the ads. Technically its the same thing, but i think they logically couldn't make it though how both concepts could exist. Its really easy to rebut this because its dumb, but if you think this scenario though, only one option makes logical sense and they chose the communal thing.

- As max factor pointed out weeks ago, if you've ads honked, the notion of "discovery" doesn't make sense when you do it a few moments later in the fss. They could nerf the rewards of the fss.. but then those same noise majority..... or you could buff the ads to be like the fss, but that doesn't make sense either.

This is why its difficult. The fact that the pieces landed where they are should make any simulator explorer reasonably angry... because.....

The notion of discovery is a process, not a single step. The ADS honk is described as a single step when it is only the first step to discovering a system pre-3.3.

You may be right that FDev wanted to remove the old modules, however in order to do so there needs to be justification for the dev time, and this went away during beta. The justification wasn't great originally, but the little that there was (which back when it was announced in September I accepted) went away, leaving none.

No justification means no action, not do it anyway. There is no need to justify leaving something in the game when it is easier to just keep it (which was the case here). There needs to be some justification to potentially disappointing existing customers who have already bought the game and there is none. So all that does is put the oversight in a different place (the dastardly dev should have covered their tracks) instead of what I believe to be a missed opportunity to avoid disappointing anyone

 

[Riverside]

You present as if doing this is just some simple matter of plugging in a few lines of code, and it is assuredly not.

You threw some guff about me not knowing how the Cobra engine works earlier IndigoWyrd, I'm just going to toss that back in your direction.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

The notion of discovery is a process, not a single step. The ADS honk is described as a single step when it is only the first step to discovering a system pre-3.3.

You may be right that FDev wanted to remove the old modules, however in order to do so there needs to be justification for the dev time, and this went away during beta. The justification wasn't great originally, but the little that there was (which back when it was announced in September I accepted) went away, leaving none.

No justification means no action, not do it anyway. There is no need to justify leaving something in the game when it is easier to just keep it (which was the case here). There needs to be some justification to potentially disappointing existing customers who have already bought the game and there is none. So all that does is put the oversight in a different place (the dastardly dev should have covered their tracks) instead of what I believe to be a missed opportunity to avoid disappointing anyone

You want to talk about unjustified - bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unjustified. Japan had already surrendered before the bombs fell. But the money was spent, the time invested, and the rest is history.

But then, that WAS the justification - time and money spent. This could be no different. Time and Money were spent developing something new. The magnitude of gratitude here is pretty staggering when you step back and look at it.

 

[Riverside]

You want to talk about unjustified - bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unjustified. Japan had already surrendered before the bombs fell. But the money was spent, the time invested, and the rest is history.

But then, that WAS the justification - time and money spent. This could be no different. Time and Money were spent developing something new. The magnitude of gratitude here is pretty staggering when you step back and look at it.

Your analogy is ridiculous IndigWyrd, get a grip.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

You threw some guff about me not knowing how the Cobra engine works earlier IndigoWyrd, I'm just going to toss that back in your direction.

I'll catch that - I don't know how the Cobra Engine works, but it is entirely logical and completely rational to believe it works, at its most basic level, like any other program, by executing lines of code, and I do know at least a few things about how lines of code work, and what happens when you take a collection of code and just start plugging things into it.

Back to you.

 

[Riverside]

I'll catch that - I don't know how the Cobra Engine works, but it is entirely logical and completely rational to believe it works, at its most basic level, like any other program, by executing lines of code, and I do know at least a few things about how lines of code work, and what happens when you take a collection of code and just start plugging things into it.

Back to you.

I don't need to know how a thing works to be able to see what it does IndigoWyrd, and neither do you

123

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Your analogy is ridiculous IndigWyrd, get a grip.

It is? Really?

So.. all the development that went into creating the FSS was free, right? Done by coding gnomes that just let themselves in at night, and did all that work for nothing? Frontier spent no money on salaries, put in no development time on making the FSS and digging the ADS out of the game code? Which is more ridiculous now?

And yes, that bit about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is completely true and a matter of historical record.

But don't take my word for it, ask "Secretary of War Henry Lewis Stimson [was not sure the bombs were needed to reduce the need of an invasion:] “Japan had no allies; its navy was almost destroyed; its islands were under a naval blockade; and its cities were undergoing concentrated air attacks.”"

But we can leave that entire debate elsewhere. The point still remains, Time and Money were invested to create a thing (in this case, the FSS). What does it say to simply abandon it?

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

The notion of discovery is a process, not a single step. The ADS honk is described as a single step when it is only the first step to discovering a system pre-3.3.

You may be right that FDev wanted to remove the old modules, however in order to do so there needs to be justification for the dev time, and this went away during beta. The justification wasn't great originally, but the little that there was (which back when it was announced in September I accepted) went away, leaving none.

No justification means no action, not do it anyway. There is no need to justify leaving something in the game when it is easier to just keep it (which was the case here). There needs to be some justification to potentially disappointing existing customers who have already bought the game and there is none. So all that does is put the oversight in a different place (the dastardly dev should have covered their tracks) instead of what I believe to be a missed opportunity to avoid disappointing anyone

There's nothing us as players can do with this discussion apart from get frustrated, so while ive done probably hours of it over cigarette breaks, will choose not to do so on the forums. The problem is if you hold up what we have in game to any possible conclusion, the outcomes are only negative.

To your point though, it is definitely interesting that the removal of the ads was only done after the beta had started.. the module was still in the game for the first beta. I don't remember if the honk populated the system map before it was removed... Personally I was too shocked with being taken out of ship like that to look at keeping the old system.

 

[Riverside]

There's nothing us as players can do with this discussion apart from get frustrated, so while ive done probably hours of it over cigarette breaks, will choose not to do so on the forums. The problem is if you hold up what we have in game to any possible conclusion, the outcomes are only negative.

To your point though, it is definitely interesting that the removal of the ads was only done after the beta had started.. the module was still in the game for the first beta. I don't remember if the honk populated the system map before it was removed...

I think you misunderstand, the ADS was never in the beta, but the justification for removing it went away with the later beta updates as you described earlier (populating the sysmap in the bubble effectively giving everyone a free ADS in pre-populated and explored systems, and turning the FSS into a built in component of every ship).

Not a point I made but obviously the ADS (and IDS/BDS) remained in the live game throughout the beta and after it completed, they were removed as part of the 3.3 update on the 11th December of course.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I think you misunderstand, the ADS was never in the beta, but the justification for removing it went away with the later beta updates as you described earlier (populating the sysmap in the bubble effectively giving everyone a free ADS in pre-populated and explored systems, and turning the FSS into a built in component of every ship).

Not a point I made but obviously the ADS (and IDS/BDS) remained in the live game throughout the beta and after it completed, they were removed as part of the 3.3 update on the 11th December of course.

Right, well what i was trying to say earlier is frontier likely removed the ads because what it was offering had now been replaced by the exemption pass. It doesn't make sense to have an exemption pass and an ads in the same design.. they wouldn't have had to invent the exemption pass if it was still there.

Which is even dumber. Instead of a honk its now given away (only to people frontier believe can't handle the fss) for absolutely nothing, not even a honk.. just show up and its there.

Apparently, nav beacons do the fss work for you even, and looking at some of the youtube content from the gamer gameplay demographic, these people are dropping at the beacon and scanning that because it instantly pops the blue blobs for all the signal sources. I mean how much do frontier hate their own mechanic you literally dont have to use it, and get all the god modes if you happen to be in the bubble.

EDIT: Like i mentioned previously, trying to understand and derive their design in good faith i don't recommend because stuff like this.

Hmmm.... frontier actually "looked after" combat players then... so many they just didn't have any simulator players who were in scope to influence the design. A tiny thing like the nav panel being filled with unknowns would have prevented 4 or 5 hundred pages of forum posts and goodwill erosion of us 6 people and a silent minority. Maybe they just didn't know.

 

[Riverside]

The point still remains, Time and Money were invested to create a thing (in this case, the FSS). What does it say to simply abandon it?

No IndigoWyrd, at no stage have I suggested any of the new discovery process be nerfed, only for putting the old modules back in. I have stressed this in most of my posts.

If the ADS is put back into the game (made available to buy in outfitting) not fitting one would mean you continued just as you do now in 3.3. If you fit an ADS it populates the nav panel and HUD with targetable but [unexplored] POIs for untagged/un-prepopulated and partially tagged systems and populates the sysmap with basic but not full data (just as the ADS did before). Everything else (including money) would be handled by the new system, just as it is in the bubble. If you're not going into systems with untagged (and un-prepopulated) bodies there would be no benefit to fitting an ADS at all.

Is this where the misunderstanding comes from? I can certainly understand the desire to not lose what you have, that's the position those that want the ADS back are in.

 

[M00ka]

I think you misunderstand, the ADS was never in the beta, but the justification for removing it went away with the later beta updates as you described earlier (populating the sysmap in the bubble effectively giving everyone a free ADS in pre-populated and explored systems, and turning the FSS into a built in component of every ship).

Not a point I made but obviously the ADS (and IDS/BDS) remained in the live game throughout the beta and after it completed, they were removed as part of the 3.3 update on the 11th December of course.

So you are saying that because FD didn't change the live game during beta that is your entire premise that the two systems can co-exist? Even though those playing Beta were on a different server? You seem very convinced you know more about the inner workings of FD and what their future plans are. If FD thought that having the ADS and FSS was a viable option they would not have gone to the trouble of making the ADS obsolete. But I guess they should have contacted you for permission first!

 

[Riverside]

So you are saying

What I said is what I wrote Mooka. I think you may have missed the part where I said I think the choice to avoid frustrating any players was overlooked, or spotted too late to correct in the 3.3 initial release. I was disappointed that the fix was not applied in 3.3.01:

ETA OP has now been updated with patch notes, old discovery process has not yet been re-instated, shame

 

[Stigbob]

What I said is what I wrote Mooka. I think you may have missed the part where I said I think the choice to avoid frustrating any players was overlooked, or spotted too late to correct in the 3.3 initial release. I was disappointed that the fix was not applied in 3.3.01:

FDEV's intention was to upgrade the ADS to the FSS by replacing it with something better, which they've done. Avoiding frustrating some players was never on the cards as no matter what they do some people always get frustrated. Even by free stuff.

Player frustration is just inevitable background noise.

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

Really?

126 pages of this!!

Let it go!

 

[Riverside]

FDEV's intention was to upgrade the ADS to the FSS by replacing it with something better, which they've done. Avoiding frustrating some players was never on the cards as no matter what they do some people always get frustrated. Even by free stuff.

Player frustration is just inevitable background noise.

FDevs intention was to avoid frustrating anyone if possible. Who gets frustrated by free stuff Stigbob? I know a few that get frustrated with stuff being needlessly removed, but free stuff is fine as long as it's optional.

The solution I'm proposing (putting the ADS back in the game) isn't going to solve every problem every player has with the game Stigbob, it's just going to solve this one.

There is no conflict between the ADS and the new discovery process. Some people are frustrated that it's gone so putting it back in means fewer frustrated people. That's only good, no downside.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Really?

126 pages of this!!

Let it go!

No.

This is what it takes to get through to FD that there are people who don't like the way they have implemented the FSS.

I think it is awful, so I won't be "letting it go".

 

[Stigbob]

FDevs intention was to avoid frustrating anyone if possible. Who gets frustrated by free stuff Stigbob? I know a few that get frustrated with stuff being needlessly removed, but free stuff is fine as long as it's optional.

FDEVs intention was to upgrade the game, frustration by a few is inevitable. A few claim to be frustrated by anything at all regardless of them having quit years ago. Free stuff/paid stuff/removed or added stuff makes no difference to that its a permanent state.

The solution I'm proposing (putting the ADS back in the game) isn't going to solve every problem every player has with the game Stigbob, it's just going to solve this one.

If you regard it as an actual problem with the game, which I clearly don't.

There is no conflict between tthe ADs and the new discovery process. Some people are frustrated that it's gone so putting it back in means fewer frustrated people. That's only good, no downside.

There is conflict between the two, the ADS renders the FSS irrelevant as it does it all from the honk making the FSS pointless. ED was always going to change over time we all knew this buying in (or should have). The downside is a waste of devtime and loss of potential in a good update. If FDEV wanted to keep them both they would have, clearly they didn't want to do that.