I don't care that it hasn't been done, the fact it hasn't been done is an utterly inane reason not to do it. And it's absurd to "ignore chaning internals to remodelling the ship" and cherry pick your facts to suit your argument, because that's exactly what "magical changes" are.
Class refers to the physical size of a compartment.. for the T9 to find a whole additional Class 8 compartment in space is beyond ridiculous "magic" compared to the much, much saner logic which could be applied to the Clipper of "Oh, we've remodeled the Clipper and/or Type 7 to shave off those couple inches it needs to fit into a medium pad".
So as I said before, we can either shrink it and do nothing else making it a medium, or actually double-down and make it the Large-class ship it should be, which would then actually provide a logical gap for a proper medium Imperial ship..
So, I'm curious. What *specific* configuration about the Imperial Clipper makes it better than, say, a T6, or a sidey, or any other ship, at gathering materials? Because all I see in this thread so far is "It's fine as is" without any substantial, concrete comparisons.
So, I'm curious. What *specific* configuration about the Imperial Clipper makes it better than, say, a T6, or a sidey, or any other ship, at gathering materials? Because all I see in this thread so far is "It's fine as is" without any substantial, concrete comparisons.
Indeed, all things it can do "exceptionally well" I have heard of here so far, is basic stuff, that can be done in any other ship... material gathering is the best joke so far.
Even for piracy, which has been mentioned a few times, it is sub-par because of its low mass lock factor. Also, traders are usually not travelling in particularly fast ships.
The only honest "argument" I have seen here is the claim that it's fine to have obsolete ships, which I do not agree with, especially not a large one.
<snip> That was example of basic functionality. You are taking it too literally.
Seems like you don't read between the lines too well. So here, have another, more obvious hint.
Challenger / Chieftain / Crusader
<snip>
Yes I took it literally, because you literally started talking about how scaling would "mess the UV map" and how it's not a hard thing to do.
You also show a video about scaling;
Got a bit of a chuckle here.
You guys do realize those 3d models are usually scale able right ? https://youtu.be/yjLw7v6D5o4?t=2m50s
It might mess the UV map therefore the texture but its not such a hard thing to do.
Annoying yes, hard nope.
That was a pretty contrived way of saying that you actually mean ship variants like the Chieftain | Challenger | Crusader, rather than changes to an existing ship.
Making ship variants requires more than just changes to the UV mapping, and while they do use parts of the same models, they still need entirely new model parts kitbashed onto them. There are pro & cons of how that affects UV mapping.
The reason I'd like it buffed is because it's my favourite ship in the game (visually, haven't owned very many) but seems weak in combat.
Maybe they could increase the price a little higher and give it more utility slots. Or make it have a fighter bay.
edit
the reason I'd like more utility slots is because it is a large class ship but has only 4.
Maybe if you had more you could get all the little options to give it a bit more strength, shield booster, or more chaff since it's a big easy to hit ship, or the point defence. If it had 6 you could squeeze some more of those optional things in there.
As a multirole its not going to dominate in combat compared to pure combat ships, but i always found it to be a great combat ship if you play to its strengths (like you should always do with any ship anyway). Its biggest weakness is its top down profile, and because its got a good turn rate for a large ship the temptation is to dog fight, which it can do, but if you stall with your top profile showing to your opponent you're a massive target with relatively weak shields. Its flat profile is perfect for jousting though. Fit long range weapons and go in flat and straight, zoom past, then FA off, do a 180 and come back again for another pass.
Having said that, I do find it strange how lots of people here are focused on its combat ability as a reason to give it a buff. Its a relatively cheap multirole. What do people want? The combat prowess of a FdL?
Its like all those people who say the Cobra Mk4 is rubbish because its rubbish at combat (it isn't that bad at combat really), when that's not its main strength.
Its like all those people who say the Cobra Mk4 is rubbish because its rubbish at combat (it isn't that bad at combat really), when that's not its main strength.
The Cobra Mk4 was deliberately designed to suck, so people who didn't pre-order Horizons don't complain too much about not having access to it.
But again... what exactly is the Clipper's main strength then?
- Combat? No
- Trading? No
- Exploring? No
- Smuggling? No
- Piracy? No
- Mining? No
- Missions? No
- Passenger transport? No
- Cheap (including rank grind)? No
- Looking good? Yes
Having said that, I do find it strange how lots of people here are focused on its combat ability as a reason to give it a buff. Its a relatively cheap multirole. What do people want? The combat prowess of a FdL?
Well as I've said, it needs to be a medium. You're right, multipurpose means it shouldn't be a king fighter... but the fact it's a Large ship absolutely kills any reason to use it, because there is no trade-off which makes up for that flaw when compared to other medium ships.
Lets have a look at all the large and medium ships.
For Large, we've got:
Type-7: About the only ship the Clipper might be better than
Orca: Mid-Tier passenger vessel, trading capacity for jump range, and able to fit Luxury Cabins[1]
Type-9: Supreme Cargo hauler with a price point more than 50% less than the only other ships able to haul a comparable amount, being the Cutter and Corvette. Also had magic pixies increase the amount of stuff you can fit in it by about 33%.
Beluga: The big boy for passenger hauling. Doesn't have the range of the Orca but can fit many more passengers as the trade-off, and can also fit the Luxury cabin[1]
Type-10: Trades some of that magic pixie dust the T-9 got in exchange for arguably the best armour in the game, while still maintaining a substantial hauling capacity.
Anaconda: A great all-rounder amongst the other Large ships, and an "apex" multirole ship.
Imperial Cutter/Federal Corvette: "Endgame" ships for rank progression. Can be kitted to be an equal hauler to a T9, or a nightmare on combat, though sacrifices mobility compared to the smaller "Large" class ships.
And all feature the same flaw: an inability to dock at ~50% of the available docks in the game. In some cases this is just a matter of convenience, in others it completely eliminates the ability to operate in those systems. It's a *major* hamper for the large-class ships, especially in a multi-role capacity where flexibility and ability to act on instinct rather than a well-laid plan is key. It's the equivalent of "Putting everything on black" but for ship choice, because you're literally saying ~50% of docks are no longer accessible for the activity you plan to do with that ship. But the offset for this class is that, whatever their role, they are *really good* at it.
And then we have the Clipper, whose direct competition is a whole bunch of Medium-size ships. In this class, we have:
Asp Scout, Keelback, Type-6, Python, Fer-de-Lance, Krait MK2, FGS, Challenger, FAS, Chieftain, FDS, Asp Explorer
We've already made the claim that "It shouldn't be as good as a dedicated combat vessel", so let's rule those out of a comparison. Let's also rule out anything not listed as a multipurpose ship, as this knocks out a bunch of ships at the 2-3m mark, which isn't really a reasonable comparison point anyway (Even I think a Clipper is more performant than an Asp Scout or the handy Type-6). From that, we have:
Python, Krait MK2, FDS, Asp Explorer
Unquestionably, the Python and Krait MK2 are far superior to the Clipper on numerous fronts. On the rare occasion the Clipper might marginally outdo one of these ships in a category, I claim the difference is not significant enough to outweigh the fact it's a Large ship, and significantly restricted in it's operational theaters as a result. But we're also claiming that these *should* outperform the Clipper since they're roughly double the cost... so there should be no argument ruling these out of comparison.
This leaves us with just the Asp Explorer and FDS. So let's throw the Type-7 in there despite being a large ship, just for giggles.
Straight up, the Clipper is the most expensive, so it loses out on price-point. For some other base-stats, in rank order:
- Armour: Type-7 (612), FDS (540), Clipper (486), Asp E (378)
- Armour Hardness: FDS and Clipper (60), Type 7 (54), Asp E (52)
- Shields: Clipper (186), Asp E (152), FDS (104), Type 7 (99)
- Speed: Clipper (306/388), Asp E (254/345), Type 7 and FDS (182/304)
- Manouverability: Clipper (5), Asp E (4), FDS (3), Type-7 (1)
- Fuel Capacity: FDS, Type-7, Asp E (32), Clipper (16)
- Jump Range: Asp E (~13), Type-7 (~12), Clipper(~9), FDS (~7)
- Mass/Masslock: Asp E (280/11), Type 7 (350/10), Clipper (400/12), FDS (580/14)
So no real surprises here. Clipper is fast and maneuverable. Nobody really disagrees with that. The 16t fuel tank is a big issue though. This gives it major exploitation range issues. You can only get a handful of jumps before needing a refuel. This makes either a scoop (which costs time) or a fuel tank if you want to go more than a half dozen jumps at max distance.
A disadvantage for the Clipper and FDS is they are both rank locked, but the rank restrictions on the FDS are much lighter (3rd Rank) compared to the Clipper (7th Rank). Given the increasing effort required between ranks, this makes the Clipper significantly more difficult to obtain.
Hardpoints?
- Clipper's got 2 x C2, 2 x C3, and *very* average convergence. Four fittings is reasonable, but limits diversity of fittings. It'll have slightly less damage than a Krait or Python given it lacks a C3 mount, but the lack of diversity possible with four hardpoints is a concern.
- FDS has 4 x C2 and 1 x C3. This gives it roughly equivalent firepower, but a distinct advantage in fitting diversity, able to take on krait/python like combat fittings at the expense of two C3's replaced with two C2's. Given the impact of engineering these days, diversity is king.
- Asp Explorer comes with 2 x C2, and 4 x C1. While that's a significant drop in damage output, it's even bigger diversity, though likely not enough to offset the damage drop. The big advantage here is you can fit 2 x C1 dumbfires for surface target/skimmer missions or other multipurpose activities where such hardpoints are useful, and still have 2 x C2 and 2 x C1 giving it the damage output of a Viper III which is still a formidable fighter in that regard. Combined with a good armour-tank fit, the Asp Explorer can still be a formidable fighter.
- Type-7 has 4 x C1, but what do you expect, it's a transport, not a multi-purpose.
However, we predicated this with saying that the Clipper isn't meant to be a great fighter. There's really two ways to do fighting in FD: All in knowing you'll win, or just don't. Anytime you're fitting a multipurpose fitting these days, you're virtually opting out of trying to win combat, and the only thing between you and death is your ability to escape and take some bullets while you flee. So since we're comparing multipurpose fits, weapons don't really matter, except the ability to fit some dumbfires launchers for surface targets. Given the Clipper has less and larger hardpoints, this makes subbing out one of it's hardpoints for such a weapon far more damaging to it's survivability than the other ships. Except the type-7, because lol Type-7 combat...
Core Internals, well, they're a thing. I could go into them, but you're kinda locked up. They are what they are, and you can generally tell where you'll end up from the base stats. Having flown a Clipper way back when, I don't recall it's internals being anything extraordinarily different.
Then the optional internals.
Fitting "Capacity" can be calculated as just the sum of the slots, or the sum of 2^Class, since both are meaningful measures. For reference:
- # of fittings is a measure of the ship's potential diversity.
- 2^Class represents the fitting capacity of equipment which increase in function exponentially such as Cargo Racks, Fuel Tanks and, well, that's about it.
- Sum of Classes of fittings is a measure of fitting capacity for equipment with a more linear increase, which is most other modules.
Type 7: 3 x C6, 3 x C5, 2 x C3, 1 x C2, Total Fitting 41/308 across 8 fittings.
Clipper: 1 x C7, 1 x C6, 2 x C4, 2 x C3, 2 x C2, Total Fitting 31/248 across 8 fits.
Asp E: 1 x C6, 1 x C5, 3 x C3, 2 x C2, Total Fitting 24/128 across 7 fits.
FDS: 1 x C6, 2 x C5, 1 x C4, 2 x C3, 1 x C2, (2 x C4), Total Fitting 28/164 (36/196) across 7 (9) fits.
When you start looking at the internals, you start to realise just how much the Clipper is lacking. Remember, it's the *most expensive* of all these ships, and they're all multipurpose ships except the T7, so on that count alone the Clipper should be superior at least in some measure.
Vs Type 7
Firstly, the Type-7 totally outshines the Clipper in terms of raw fitting capacity on all counts, and has equal diversity available. Of course, as we've found the Clipper is a far superior fighter, provided it's equipped as one. But as others are claiming, it's meant to be a multi-purpose ship. So already our intent is *not* combat. So given both the T-7 and the Clipper are Large ships, and the T7 has better jump range and more fitting flexibility than the Clipper, so it's already a better choice. Even to sneak combat back into it, any ship not decked out for combat in the hands of an experienced pilot will either evade decisive combat, or be dead. Basically the Clippers superior defences and speed are basically a protection against the pilot stuffing up, as a multi-purpose clipper shouldn't be looking for a fight, ever. But if we are picking a fight, I'd just pull out my Vulture, as it's a cheaper, dedicated combat vessel and much more fit for purpose in that regard (and is *exactly* what I did back when the Vulture was introduced and the only ships to my name were that and a Clipper[2])
Vs Asp
Compared to the Asp? It outshines it on several fronts, but the Asp is also 33% of the price, is a medium ship, and most importantly, the Asp E *knows* what it is, because it's in the name. It's an exploration vessel through and through, and the larger fittings support that, with the smaller fittings used (these days) for whatever tools you expect to need on your expedition, such as utility limpets, SRV and scanners. But if we do use the Asp E for a multipurpose experience, the main advantage the clipper will give you is Cargo Capacity. But we're comparing 60-90t to 120-190t. That may be double to triple profits on a trade run, but missions (which are basically *the* multipurpose career) would the ability to fulfil two or three extra trade missions outstrip the fact 50% of the available trade missions are to medium ports, and you also deny yourself all the data courier missions to similar destinations? I argue not... for any dedicated mission running, the ability to dock at medium outposts is critical, if not mandatory. Additionally, while the Clipper may have Clipper is a superior fighter for sure, but it's the same discussion per the Type-7.
So, the Clipper will do slightly better at raw trade, at the cost of being able to fulfil as many missions and will better protect a bad pilot[3], but doesn't excel at any other functions in a significant enough capacity to outweigh the inability to dock at medium ports.
Vs FDS
And lastly the FDS, which frankly, blows the clipper out of the water. It's a Medium ship, so "bells and whistles" etc.. FDS is an outright superior combat vessel, particularly thanks to the military slots. It's much cheaper, and has a greatly lower rank unlock compared to the Clipper. Once again, Clipper is faster, so yay, you can get away quicker. A key difference is the cargo-like fitting capacity.... but so much of the clipper is invested in that single C7 slot which accounts for over 50% of that style of fitting capacity. While the clipper can achieve a more diverse fitout *if* you ignore the FDS' military slots, it's such a fragile fit... whatever you put in that C7 slot, that's it, that's what you're doing. Given either the C7 or C6 is gonna be your shields, that knocks you down with no better than a C4 to deck out the rest of your ship. That's not much wriggle room. The only thing the Clipper is better at in this context is it's fast.
But again... what's fast mean if you aren't picking fights? You dock quicker? You scoop cargo quicker? Is that really worth it compared to the inability to dock at outposts?
To try and balance this somewhat... there's two things the Clipper *can* do.
Firstly, and it's only in the recent update that this is a thing... it's a decent core-miner. I *always* base out of a Large port for mining because outposts too often don't have something like repair or restock. T7 is my usual go-to for mining but it can't fit the seismic charges with only C1 fits, and it's 8 internals mean it supports the diversity of fits needed for mining these days. It's horrendous hardpoint conversion adds an extra level of difficulty for mining though, and it's low quantity of hardpoints means you can't fit an effective all-mode mining vessel. By extension this makes it "OK" at traditional mining, but the T7 can store way more, and 4x C1 beams is enough for anyone.
Secondly, it's a "servicable" fighter, if you dedicate it to the role. But as discussed, there's cheaper dedicated fighters out there which are accessible without a rank grind... if you're getting a Clipper purely for combat, you're doing combat wrong.
So overall, the Clipper *could* compete with other Medium ships of comparable price and function, if it didn't carry the major drawback of being a large vessel. This just kills it for anything, as any advantages it does have over comparable vessels is outstripped by that drawback. It's simply not worth it. It's stuck in this "identity crisis" where it fits out and functions just like another medium ship, except it's a large ship. If it was made medium, it still wouldn't outshine the more expensive medium ships such as Python and Phantom variants, but it would actually be a featureful, useful ship that would sit neatly in the range of medium ships available, and would resolve the "lack of a medium Imperial Vessel" issue, *and* pave the way for a new, better Large Imperial variant (such as the Imperial Explorer or Imperial Trader)
[1] Notwithstanding the fact that Luxury cabins, or at least the availability of such missions is not adequate enough to make it worth fitting them.
[2] Because I'm a one-eyed Imperial supporter.
[3] Boiling it down to "protecting a bad pilot" isn't a particularly bad measure, since combat is so much down to the individual commander's choices, rather than the fitting capacity.
If I could change anything on the Clipper, I'd change the shields issue first and foremost, maybe the weapons convergence (but I really don't care about this that much as even if it were fixed, I wouldn't use it as a combat ship because it's a multi role ship) , and lower the rank needed to buy it(2nd biggest issue in my opinion behind the paper shields). I do a lot of trading and some smuggling and don't give 2 flipping Imperial Cutters about landing on Outposts. In fact, I avoid them like the plague. Last time I used them was to grind rank via courier missions and I damn sure wouldn't use an over-priced triangle pancake (You know it as the python) for that role. Using the Imp courier to zip in and out of those things is the only way to roll. I no longer need to grind rank as the proud owner of a Cutter and Vette.
I'm not a fan of multi-role ships, however, the Clipper is the only multi-role ship in my fleet. In a fleet where every ship is designed to perform a specific task, I use the Clipper to fill in those gaps, such as smuggling, which something I only do sparingly. If I want to trade, I'm pulling out the Cutter and if I need ridiculous jump with a lot of cargo, I'm going with my T7. Meanwhile, all other multi-role ships I've owned have been sold. Python sold after 3 weeks. Anaconda after a month(may by another for a 65k LY trip I want to take, but still on the fence since I'm not a fan). I'm currently 12k ly out from the bubble in an Krait MK II to see how I like it, and so far, it's ok. I wanted a medium exploration ship where I can take an SRV and SLF for space boredom, the Krait has now filled that hole.
I think the debate comes down to 2 sides: Some of you like to have just 1, 2 or 3 ships, 1 of those being a multi-role ship so it can be outfitted for anything and be your everything. For the vast majority of these pilots, the Clipper isn't a good fit. It simply falls short in too many roles to be a "main" ship unless you just absolutely love it (like Python fanboi's love their Python despite it being virtually obsolete now that the MK II is out).
Then there are pilots like myself. We don't want a ship that's mediocre at everything, we want a ship that excels at one thing. If we want to do something, we'll hop in a ship that excels at that particular task. If I'm doing combat, I'm not flying out in a multi-role ship, I'm flying out in my FDL(PVP), Vulture(PVE), FGS(Thargoids), or Vette(PVE/PVP). If I'm trading, I'm either in the Cutter(CG's) or T7(long haul). If it's exploring, DBX or the new Krait. I believe for pilots like myself, we can find a viable role for the Clipper in our fleets, therefore we are ok with it's limitations. As it can be setup to fill in a gap role, such as 1 off tasks.
Give it a boost to the base shield modifier so it's got shields suitable for it's size and you have a solid mid level trade ship.
It does need a buff.
We also need a new medium imperial ship. Agility and speed of the Chieftain with decent shields and thin hull. Also weapon placement on par with the chieftain. No military slots though.
And the irony of the matter is that the core mining mechanics play to its strength so well... It is the only small ship with 8 internals, fully kitted out shielded miner with limpets, DSS, 48T of cargo and 5 hard points for a Seismic Charge, a Sub Surface Blaster an Abrasion Blaster and 2 mining lasers for LTDs.
All that in a small ship.
It turned out that, against the odds, the CMKIV is one of the best mining ships in the game and THE best Small mining ship bar none and only a fraction of the players can EVER use it.
Now if we just had some Small only content (small pad only outposts with rares and secret data missions etc.)
tunnels underground and through asteroids too tight for medium/large ships... heat signature and smuggling mechanics that play to small ships' strengths and we'd be golden.
Sometimes it's not the ships themselves that actually need to be buffed but the game around them.
Next time "fix" it outside of the citation-box please, as I didn't write that. Let's go through your points, though:
- Smuggling:
Since a lot of good smuggling destinations are outposts, any medium ship is better suited for smuggling missions. For bulk-smuggling like iSlaves otoh the Cutter and T-9 are king... the Clipper has laughably small cargo space for a large ship. Even the cheap T-7 is a better smuggler than the Clipper.
- Piracy:
Why is the Clipper especially well suited for this in your eyes? Again this can be done better in other multi-purpose ships like the Pyhton and Kraits. Even the Dropship is better, because of its superior hardpoint convergence and MLF. And no, speed isn't required for piracy unless you are trying to pirate another Clipper.
- Cheap:
It's cheap only at the first glance... If you take the rank grind into account, you will find that the Clipper is the third-most expensive ship in the game, only the Cutter and Corvette are more time-consuming to get. A new player can earn the necessary credits for a fully A-rated Python or even an Anaconda faster than the rank for a Clipper.
It turned out that, against the odds, the CMKIV is one of the best mining ships in the game and THE best Small mining ship bar none and only a fraction of the players can EVER use it.
Granted, it's probably the best small mining ship in the game. Otoh anyone who pre-ordered Horizons probably doesn't need it and can use one of their Pythons or Anacondas to mine
Always a hilarious thread.
If you can't build a Clipper to play for it's strengths. Stop the whine threads to make it a ship you want.
Hopefully FD never listens to the I want peeps.
Always a hilarious thread.
If you can't build a Clipper to play for it's strengths. Stop the whine threads to make it a ship you want.
Hopefully FD never listens to the I want peeps.
Ah yes, the good ol' "Can't fit the ship to it's strengths?" post, which is devoid of any proof the ship *has* strengths.
I posted an small essay about why it's outclassed by any comparable ship, and even acknowledge the ships strengths in the process. How about you address that?
Always a hilarious thread.
If you can't build a Clipper to play for it's strengths. Stop the whine threads to make it a ship you want.
Hopefully FD never listens to the I want peeps.
The Cobra Mk4 was deliberately designed to suck, so people who didn't pre-order Horizons don't complain too much about not having access to it.
But again... what exactly is the Clipper's main strength then?
- Combat? No
- Trading? No
- Exploring? No
- Smuggling? No
- Piracy? No
- Mining? No
- Missions? No
- Passenger transport? No
- Cheap (including rank grind)? No
- Looking good? Yes
Bortas me ole mucker, you missed out one of the best Clipper attributes known to man and alien this side of the Sagittarius black stump ....... 'It has by far the best Boost sound bar none' (IMHO of course )
Bortas me ole mucker, you missed out one of the best Clipper attributes known to man and alien this side of the Sagittarius black stump ....... 'It has by far the best Boost sound bar none' (IMHO of course )
You may have said before Bortas's post, but i am reminding Bortas that he has forgot this great Clipper attribute in his list, not the fact that it has already been mentioned.
Well at the very least there are now 2 of us who believe that the Clipper boost sound is the best in any ship!
I am not the booty ship you are looking for, move on
That was example of basic functionality. You are taking it too literally. 
