It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

[kilvenny]

There are three things that increase the risk of death
1) How far you travel in the black, further adds risk
2) How you set your ship up, bias towards exploration increases risk, because normally that means less defence
3) Playing in open

DW2, if playing in open has all three. What is the expectation of DW2, is it a scenic tour of the galaxy or a journey out into the black that maybe no one will complete? Elite is a game of risk management, if you want the former sacrifices need to be made and a more conservative approach taken. I would actually argue based on the thread that the cost of death is not high enough because it is not prompting the player into risk management.

One of the problems is that the cost of death is high enough in the early game but once your credits are high enough it isn't in terms of money. It's actually cheaper for pvp players because they will not be bothered about exploration data. So there is a bias in favour of pvp players. However the defender always has the option of open or private group so it comes back to understanding the game mechanics and risk management.

 

[Wasp0]

Frontier are not going to change. The player approach has to change.

Its quite obvious that 'Open' is a free for all.

If you don't want that, play in PG or Solo.

Its really that simple. I have not been PKd in years!

This entire thread, this entire PvP v PvE argument, this entire GAME can be summed up with this quite EXCELLENT post. I commend this post to be a sticky and everyone who plays the game or will play the game. has to read and understand this post!!

I cannot rep you enough for having the sense to post this Sir. Bloody well done!!

 

[nouspiro]

DW2 clearly show that we need Open PvE. Fleetcoom and Mobius PG are just band aid on this problem. Because still there are attempts to infiltrate these PG even this not 100% bullet proof. I think 9 from 10 people why people use PG is to get away from gankers in open and be able to play with others.

 

[Brrokk]

My thoughts.

Open should have a disclaimer that you MUST agree to before entering:
You agree that you may be killed at any time by any one for any reason.
You agree that you will not log off or deliberately disrupt your connection whilst in combat.
Breaking these rules will result in a permanent ban from OPEN.

However new rules must be in place to level the playing field.
Killing another cmdr in secure systems will result in you put on a kill list at any station , a hit squad sent to kill you who never stop until you are dead also rebuy revoked for a time period which doubles for each murder.

But you may kill whoever you want when you want in unsecured space.

A fair compromise where everyone knows the rules and given a fair chance.

I was with you until the log-off thing. That's not in the rules.

 

[AlexAndTheDJ]

I still don't get it? It isnt so difficult to avoid being interdicted. . . And even if you do, high wake is your friend.

I'm not sure why PvPers get so much hate. Its a game for all tastes.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

If anything, I'd increase rebuy. 5% of your ships rebuy is utterly low for a complete replacement upon full desteuction. Losing exploration data is not worth too much either except for the rank progression. But this is one of the few things left that is critical to lose because it hasn't yet been inflated like credits.
The solution is easy. Choose your gamemode, understand and accept the possible conseaqences (you do that by your actions, not by saying what your consent is, you consent that you are participating in PvP. Likewise you consent that cookies are being placed on your computer when you use some websides) and just get on with your life.
There really isn't something to do about the status quo in regards to PvP vs PvE. Even PvPers know that the game is completely imbalanced thanks to engineers and we are trying to get FDev to balance this out because a Sidewinder shouldn't anihilate a T10 in less than 10 seconds. Engineers screwed balance and a whole rework might not be necessary but maybe beneficial for everyone. To make engineers sidegrades rather thab upgrades tightens the gap between PvE and PvP ships so that PvE ships have atleast a way to escape. But right now? 1-2k hull hitpoints mean absolutely nothing.

Having said that, we don't need reduced rebuys or anything. What we need is balance. And that will always be a topic, unfortunately it doesn't get as much attention as other parts.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yep, thats elite dangerous

The entire game should have been open only from the start.

Thus almost certainly guaranteeing it would have failed it's Kickstarter. TBH it was so close to failing anyway I wonder if even the offline only players who bought in were enough to make the difference.
(Not aimed at you specifically) Where were all these open only heroes when FD were desperately trying to get the game made?. Maybe your voice would have been heard if you had stumped up to be in the DDF instead of waiting for a discounted steam sale

 

[ebbrell]

Answer to OP, no nothing needs changing
Elite dangerous clue is in the name, there needs to be risk.

And there are already enough PG and solo options to help. As for people using sidewider to ram you, stay below 100 speed and you don't get shot at by the station

 

[bootsam]

Quite clearly 'Blaze your own trail' means play how others say you must play. Everyone must know that. Doesnt matter what you want, its what others want that counts. As they need someone to play with even if you do not. Remember, they need you more than you need them. So please, help the needy. Fly explorer builds, the timorous are desperate. They have canons and everything. Give them they attention they need. Wont anybody think of the children?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

My plea to PVE players like the Op. Is consider getting good enough at the game, that you finally understand how easy it is not to die to even the most determined of PVP player.

Get that knowledge right and you can be as social is you like and just lol at anyone trying to force you into non-consensual gameplay

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing

I agree there is a skill to avoiding PvP players that in and of itself can be fun to some people. I also agree that, since engineering especially the PvE game is laughably easy, but for me PvP in ED be it fighting or running is just not fun. PvP death could mean no loss of anything and spawning in the same system and I still would not want any part of it. Had it of been piracy and bounty hunting like DB waxed lyrical about the sure but that was not my experience of what PvP I was engaged in before sacking off open.

 

[two quiet suns]

I enjoy avoiding pvpers, whenever I see HP and friends camped outside a station pummelling 'innocents' I take great pleasure in flying carefully and slowly into station to dock through the mayhem.
My greatest joy though was leaving one such station boosting right around the back while being attacked and requesting docking and back right into the slot without being mashed.

Thanks guys, though I find your seal clubbing distasteful you give me an occasional challenge and small victory.

 

[babelfisch]

You're conflating insult for observation. I know what I wrote. Apparently, you don't.

If there has been a misunderstanding, make it obvious from the outset. A smiley could indicate smugness, and in the context of your post, that's what it came across as. I asked you a short, simple question initially, which you could have responded to with, 'I was just messing around, dw about it'. Instead, you chose to reinforce the post I was questioning. If it was a miscommunication, then it was the result of you assuming I would get your meaning based on a 'smiley'. Even if I wasn't autistic, that would be quite an assumption to make given how text has little to no 'tone of voice' most of the time.

At this point though, it's quite clear you have the 'it's just a prank, bro' ball in you're court, and you're going to run with it. You do you. My critique still stands, either way.

That's not a good way to apologise.

 

[DeletedUser191218]

DW2 has reintroduced the argument of PVE Open to the forums in a big way.

FDEV seems unwilling or unable to embrace a PVE Open server.

So the PVE community is stuck with the Private Group solution, with the overflow being grist for the mill in Open.

One of the core features of a collaborative PVE experience is that it shared between players with similar goals and expectations.

PG population caps, related instancing restrictions, and being pk targets all reduce the basic biochemical reward for positive social interaction that is a reasonable expectation of an MMO experience.

PVP players are simply playing within the rules outlined by FDEV when they attack any other player within Open instances.

The PVP players are NOT the reason that PVE players are restricted from a collaborative positve social experience.

The game design has established these conditions.

Currently, the consequences for PVP character death represent an insurance rebuy, loss of all exploration data, loss of cargo, loss of all missions, loss of all bounties, loss of all combat bonds, and a reset of your ship to the last station visited.

It is fair to say that the threat of character death at the hands of NPCs or pilot error is VASTLY LOWER than the threat of character death by an actual PVP player.

The consequences of character death seem appropriately punishing given the minimal threat in solo or PG.

So the calculation a player must make is:

Is my desire for collaborative positive social interaction worth the loss of personal time the threat of PVP death represents?

FDEV has demonstrated a passion for design that prolongs player time on repetitive tasks.

FDEV has embraced the model that players will accept the character death risk because the biochemcial reward is such a positive incentive.

FDEV likes pvp player death because it demands a players invest more time in the game to recover from the setback.

In my opinion, this is an extremely sinister and mean spirited design.

My plea to FDEV is that they reconsider the heavy handed rebuy and character losses for PVP deaths.

It is probably too late to develop a PVE Open offering, but it is certainly not too late to reduce the costs of PVP death.

So i understand the notion that there's an element of risk associated with playing in open etc. And i know that mobeius is an option. My only point would be I know a LOT of people that play in solo because of gankers. My question to FDev would be - are you happy that players are being pushed out of the open experience because a small percentage of players wish to be antisocial? I'm not talking about pirates even - but people attacking players at CGs (for eg) just to ruin theie game. I can't be bothered with CGs now as the entire experience involves - get interdicted, fa-off turn and boost, jump out...over and over and over again. FD need to consider if they're happy with this to continue. At the end of the day it is a game- if a small group of players are ruining the experience for many other PAYING CUSTOMERS, then i'd suggest that should be addressed (indeed it should have been some time ago).

 

[sollisb]

So i understand the notion that there's an element of risk associated with playing in open etc. And i know that mobeius is an option. My only point would be I know a LOT of people that play in solo because of gankers. My question to FDev would be - are you happy that players are being pushed out of the open experience because a small percentage of players wish to be antisocial? I'm not talking about pirates even - but people attacking players at CGs (for eg) just to ruin theie game. I can't be bothered with CGs now as the entire experience involves - get interdicted, fa-off turn and boost, jump out...over and over and over again. FD need to consider if they're happy with this to continue. At the end of the day it is a game- if a small group of players are ruining the experience for many other PAYING CUSTOMERS, then i'd suggest that should be addressed (indeed it should have been some time ago).

I think maybe you're looking at this the wrong way;

You can play solo and have no interaction with anyone else except NPCs

You can play in Private Groups and interact with fellow like-minded player, be that PvE/PvP

You can play in Open and accept that anything goes.

PvP need their mode too, the game is not just for PvE, never was, and I doubt, ever will be. So three different choices that accommodate everyone. You really cannot argue with that. PvP players, be they normal or anti-social delinquents, are also 'Paying Customers'.

And there really is nothing in 'Open' that is not in the other modes, except PvP.


Of course now that a lot of peeps are moving to solo/PG, the PvP side are faced with no-one to kill which spawns all the Power-Play Open Only threads in some vain hope to 'force'/'cajole' the players back into open. Which will never happen.

 

[Weps]

Broken record time:

Exponential notoriety!
Ironman Mode!

 

[Robert Maynard]

And there really is nothing in 'Open' that is not in the other modes, except PvP.

Both multi-player game modes are PvP-enabled.

PvE Private Groups can only function as such if all members of the Private Group abide by the rules of the Private Group that they agreed to on joining - not all do, as has been demonstrated several times already - with anecdotal evidence to suggest that FleetComm may possibly be "compromised" in a similar manner.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Why does this have to be such a touchy subject?

We have PG's for Special Events.

Never seen anything like this before.

Long ago Braben said a PVE mode wouldnt work. And we can see why in powerplay. Powerplay didnt fail for lack of building it or bad design. Powerplay itself is amazing. The purpose is to fight, win or lose.

Same with the BGS, why do we think player names and bounties end up on the boards? We were meant to chase the wanteds out of our systems, claim the bounties and influence the numbers.

PVP is actually integrated in every part of this game based around winning or losing.

This is not like World of Warcraft where you can split servers. This whole game is based off each others actions. Minus the thargoids(kinda).

A PVE server would put us in the same place Powerplay is now. I just dont think the game was made for that. Its why people like me get upset when you cant defend a home system and claim those bounties, or you cant just jump in and get into some Powerplay PVP. Opting out of winning and losing breaks the game. Thats why a PVE server just wont work.

Its also why people have banged on the open only drum. For some reason the fear of losing while battling others over objectives bothers people.

Its weird.

A simple concept thats been around since Atari and Nintendo. But for some reason this simple concept is a figment of people's imaginations here.

Why?

 

[Robert Maynard]

PVP is actually integrated in every part of this game based around winning or losing.

So well integrated that it remains entirely optional....

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So well integrated that it remains entirely optional....

Please save your procedural generated responses.

Its like you're a bad fortune cookie when it comes to this topic.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Please save your procedural generated responses.

Its like you're a bad fortune cookie when it comes to this topic.

It's not a fortune cookie - it's the reality of the game that we play.