Why FSS Mode Must Go

[MattG]

I'm curious: what's your new list of exotic unicorns ponies then? I wonder if there's anything that I might be interested on there too.
I'm still revisiting some old finds, and have been looking into the Codex and regional differences on the way, but I'm fast running out of things which I'd find worth looking for with the FSS.

Well some of them are just as easy (or not) with the FSS as with ADS - so the fabled ELW+ELM combo, ELW with multiple moons etc. But now I guess I can add ELW with a moon that has biological sites. I can't stomach the GGG hunt anymore, so instead I'm going to pay extra attention to water giants and Helium-rich gas giants as they're easier to pick out now. I'm never going to find 5+ bodies around the same barycentre, but I'd quite like to find a terraformable metal-rich planet so I'm paying extra attention to MR bodies. I'm still interested in bodies with fast orbital periods, but can obviously no longer foucs on them - instead I just pay more attention to the moons I do bother to scan. I'll probably do more hunting in Herbig systems as they'll be much quicker to fully discover now. Similarly, L-class hunting for shinies won't be that much slower. I'm debating some full sub-sector surveys, and I quite like the idea of tagging a handful of ELWs (and maybe AWs) in each region.

So yeh, it's a hugely compromised list. I'm extremely disappointed about the things that have had to be culled, but there's still other things I can focus on. Hopefully it'll end up being (nearly?) as much fun as before. Time will tell.

(Ironically, it has given me renewed enthusiasm for coding - some of it to "fix" some of the deficiencies I find with the FSS.)

 

[CMDR CHIGGY VONRICTOFEN]

This ELW had me pulling my hair out. It was behind the main star, and obscured by the GG. A find that normally would put a smile on my face, just aggravated me until I finally located it. What I could have done in 3-5 seconds, took 20 minutes or more. I am hoping against hope that they put the "squiggly line" of the FSS somewhere on the main cockpit screen, then I wouldn't have to look at the "blue blobs" as much. I have several thousand systems under my belt with the new way...trying my best..but it's not changing my mind yet.

 

[Riverside]

This ELW had me pulling my hair out. It was behind the main star, and obscured by the GG. A find that normally would put a smile on my face, just aggravated me until I finally located it. What I could have done in 3-5 seconds, took 20 minutes or more. I am hoping against hope that they put the "squiggly line" of the FSS somewhere on the main cockpit screen, then I wouldn't have to look at the "blue blobs" as much. I have several thousand systems under my belt with the new way...trying my best..but it's not changing my mind yet.

I had a similar issue yesterday. Once something nearby has been resolved one can just fly there as before. I think there is an incongruity between the FSS honk being able to detect signals through objects while the player cannot resolve them. If scanning is to be blocked imo detection probably should be too. I would prefer that neither be blocked.

 

[Siobhan]

I had a similar issue yesterday. Once something nearby has been resolved one can just fly there as before. I think there is an incongruity between the FSS honk being able to detect signals through objects while the player cannot resolve them. If scanning is to be blocked imo detection probably should be too. I would prefer that neither be blocked.

Not so sure, I'd say it can see there's something there, perhaps due to grav effects or some handwavium, but not with enough resolution to say what it is...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There are 6,555 explorers signed up for DW2 on EDSM, and the total roster is 13,021. Frankly, that's a very good ratio, especially considering that probably most of those people are new to exploration or beginners.

So on the contrary, I'd say it's good enough.

No it isn't as you are assuming that most or all explorers are members of EDSM. That makes the stats meaningless. There will be plenty out there exploring who are not part of EDSM, are not member of this forum and happily play on their own discovering things for themselves.

And if we're on the field of anecdotes (which aren't evidence), most explorers I know do share their data with others.

Most explorer you know.

It also explains better why there hasn't been a big increase on Steam player statistics at DW2's launch. Sorry, I forgot to mention that, since I was focused on exploration.

I never expected a big upsurge in steam stats with DW2's launch. Most people that were going where most likely already playing regulary anyway.

 

[MattG]

This ELW had me pulling my hair out. It was behind the main star, and obscured by the GG. A find that normally would put a smile on my face, just aggravated me until I finally located it.

Also run into this. Not with ELWs, not been that lucky, but WWs (and I assume others) that are moons can’t be detected until you’ve zoomed in to parent. Infuriating and stupid.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Note that Elite was designed for HOTAS first, and other controllers after it. So, the throttle-and-stick would be the most appropriate controller for the game. As far as I know, officially this stance hasn't changed, although the FSS looks as if it were designed for a gamepad instead, with sticks being an afterthought.

It does sometimes feel that way. The FSS does work well (enough) with HOTAS but I know there are people who switch between flight controls and mouse, or who have a gamepad plugged in for the SRV, and given that FD also use gamepads I did wonder whether it might have influenced their control choices. I do have a gamepad, but I'm not plugging it in just for the FSS. I use the mouse only for the system map and orrery (middle button to open/close the map) with everything else on the HOTAS or a handful of overspill keyboard keys.

Once you find a control schema that works for you, feel free to ask for advice on how to minimize the amount of "jiggle and pointing" you need to do. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with the FSS with the goal of maximizing my chances of finding Interesting Things(tm) while minimizing the amount of "fiddling" I have to do.

One of the things I did as soon as it was available was to switch the spectrum tuning from an analogue axis (throttle slider) to digital buttons (left and right on the primary hat). Although it felt "wrong" to be using digital controls for an analogue feature, and it took a while to get used to it, I've found it to be a much more reliable method of hitting the right frequency on a regular basis. Not perfect, but I waste less time. Sometimes what looks like the ideal control assignment can turn out to have a better option.

 

[Darkfyre99]

@Darkfyre99 Thank you. Yes, it is definitely a system’s “architecture” that I want to get a feel for. With that fixed on my head I can then explore.

The key to that is realizing that single bodies, bodies with moons, and binary+ bodies all look different in the FSS. Binary+ especially stand out: they'll have two or more "body type" arrows from the reticle pointing at the same location.

For example:

Spoiler

Note that since taking that screen shot, I've started panning over or under the orbital plane, because that makes binary+ bodies stand out even more. If a body has moons (or is part of a binary), it'll display two circles around it when the targeting reticle gets close to it. If it's a singleton, there will only be one circle.


The FSA cursor, if placed between body types, will allow you to check for a wider range of bodies that tuning the FSA to a specific body type. For example, for a more complex system, I will place the FSA cursor down to the gas giant part of the spectrum, and then move the cursor down to the Metallic/Rocky part of the spectrum, to check for terraformables.

This step is done without resolving bodies, simply paying attention to the arrows coming from the reticle, and the distance and temperature measurements in the lower left corner, though that requires at least brushing the circle displayed with the targeting reticle.

I'm planning on making some extremely short videos as I encounter, since my original plan of recording a single good system kind of didn't pan out. I just arrived at Waypoint 2 of DW2, and I'm planning on contributing a bit to the mining CG while I'm here.

 

[who?]

Just some feedback on the FSS:

- I still think it's a massive missed opportunity not to have it as an overlay on the main HUD. As it stands, it's (needlessly?) taking you away from the main, well-crafted cockpit with it's VR/head-tracking goodness and many screens of into, into one modal view lacking most of that info, and with text-overwrite problems etc. I've seen some saying this is because some big ships are so sluggish in supercruise - but in my experience at least, nothing is as sluggish as panning 360 in the FSS to find the last few hidden targets.

- On a similar vein: having to zero throttle to use it is a pain. If you need to move to find an obscured target (and you do, often!) then you have to exit the FSS, throttle up and hope you can guess where the hidden body was, then throttle back down and go back into FSS and find it again. It also means you're a sitting duck for being interdicted and are at zero-throttle so at risk of auto-submitting. But mostly: it's a HUGE missed opportunity for multicrew. Having a captain flying about and a "science officer" actively using the FSS on the go makes for real "bridge crew" like gameplay. Even better if you can detect and ships at long distances using the FSS.

- On of the problems for me, is that I generally am using the FSS just to scan the whole system. In most systems, there isn't really much that's interesting to find, so I'm scanning for the sake of finishing a scan. Exploration/scouting missions would help a lot, where you are actively looking for a given planet/body type and the numbers and stats you find in the FSS are actually interesting.

- I actually really like the FSS, but find the jump->honk->FSS sequence in every system a bit tiresome. The same signal types are always the same place in the spectum - and they're now even spelt out and colour-coded - so it's more time-consuming than challenging. I might be going against the consensus here, but I'd love it if there more complexity and nuance involved. Say - when you enter a system you can find a weak signal but might not be able to determine what exactly it is, so you have to switch between radio / IR / UV etc. bands to identify it. Then you might have to fly closer, and turn up the sensitivity to find its precise location. Or what if - say - you destroy a ship, then you get an alert that traces of [some valuable material] was dropped, and you have to use the FSS to detect it?

 

[Klepto]

For me personally, the throttle problem went away completely when I assigned a couple of very short scripts to two additional mouse buttons. Now the whole process is two clicks.

 

[space voyager]

This ELW had me pulling my hair out. It was behind the main star, and obscured by the GG. A find that normally would put a smile on my face, just aggravated me until I finally located it. What I could have done in 3-5 seconds, took 20 minutes or more. I am hoping against hope that they put the "squiggly line" of the FSS somewhere on the main cockpit screen, then I wouldn't have to look at the "blue blobs" as much. I have several thousand systems under my belt with the new way...trying my best..but it's not changing my mind yet.

Yeah right, you're just bragging with a RINGED ELW MOON you found. As if this is the only thing you ever had hidden behind a star...

 

[marx]

Well some of them are just as easy (or not) with the FSS as with ADS - so the fabled ELW+ELM combo, ELW with multiple moons etc. But now I guess I can add ELW with a moon that has biological sites.

Hm, interesting idea. With bark mounds, it should be the easiest. Some brain trees shouldn't be too hard either, but you are restricted not just to nebulae, but also to a few specific nebulae. However, if memory serves, the Codex doesn't list a hidden requirement of volcanism required on the body, and if that's true, then it'll be much harder to find one. Amphora plants are out (MR only), anemones ought to be good, sinuous tubers would be terrible, because they require silicate volcanism.
I also checked my ringed ELW finds for NSPs in the rings, but no joy. Then again, I'm not sure if anyone has ever found such outside of gas giant rings.

- I still think it's a massive missed opportunity not to have it as an overlay on the main HUD. As it stands, it's (needlessly?) taking you away from the main, well-crafted cockpit with it's VR/head-tracking goodness and many screens of into, into one modal view lacking most of that info, and with text-overwrite problems etc. I've seen some saying this is because some big ships are so sluggish in supercruise - but in my experience at least, nothing is as sluggish as panning 360 in the FSS to find the last few hidden targets.

I'd wager that the FSS was fashioned into being a turret view was because a stated goal was that it should work in multicrew too. This was the easiest way of satisfying that. Perhaps a later update could include it in the main HUD while still having the turret view as optional for the helm, but mandatory for crew. Besides, it's not like anyone except the occasional newcomer will crew up for exploration when there's no reward for doing so. (I still wonder if that's a bug or working as intended.)

 

[Orvidius]

No it isn't as you are assuming that most or all explorers are members of EDSM. That makes the stats meaningless. There will be plenty out there exploring who are not part of EDSM, are not member of this forum and happily play on their own discovering things for themselves.

I think what he was getting at is that EDSM has a fairly decent sample size, enough to draw some general observations. Sure, you can debate how representative the sample is, but statistically speaking, a sample doesn't have to be a majority in order to draw useful conclusions.

 

[foxoplasma]

Ok, but does anyone here know if FD has commented on this like, at all?
Because it's been like the biggest heated discussion ever to happen within this forum and nothing but silence since the start..

I even asked multiple FD members directly and got no response or acknowledgement at all.

 

[Cdr Voorheez]

I don't want it to go. Listen to the majority not the trollish minority. FD are doing their jobs.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Ok, but does anyone here know if FD has commented on this like, at all?
Because it's been like the biggest heated discussion ever to happen within this forum and nothing but silence since the start..

I even asked multiple FD members directly and got no response or acknowledgement at all.

As this bone had already been thoroughly gnawed in previous threads it should come as no surprise it having no response.

The Dev's, in one of the Livestreams already acknowledged that the new system would exclude a minority of explorer methods - and the update was released.

Having already made it clear, where is the need to continually reinforce the point - it isn't like we are all little puppies learning 'house training' after all

That said, it won't stop the same question/objection being made/rephrased many more times, so carry on

 

[Burke]

I get the distinct impression a few of them think its pretty bad too. I may be wrong.

 

[Tel Prydain]

What the 'pro' supporters dont seem to understand is that we aren't asking for the whole mech to be changed, just the initial 'honk' in a system to show whats in said system, thats it, keep the rest 'as is'

You know that if you glance down you can see what ELWs/Water Worlds/Gas Giants are in the system, right? The gas giant types even have their own sections.

- On a similar vein: having to zero throttle to use it is a pain.

I think that's because the objects you're trying to scan would be moving relative to you and that beggars things up.

Funny story... the other night I was trying to scan a planet, and try as I might, nothing up was showing up in the 'blur'. I was close to logging a bug report until I noticed that the blur was actually moving each time I fired a discovery pulse.
Sure enough, I checked just to the left of the blur, and it turns out that the planet in question was orbiting so quickly that it was moving out of the blur.... the blur was more of a 'last seen at this point' indicator. I've since has this same thing happen a 2nd time with fast orbiting moons.

My guess is that if they didn't make you slow down first, barely any of the closer objects would be where the discovery pulse said they should be.

- I actually really like the FSS, but find the jump->honk->FSS sequence in every system a bit tiresome. The same signal types are always the same place in the spectum - and they're now even spelt out and colour-coded ?

This is why I find it odd that some folk think it's harder to find 'interesting' things - a single glance at the signal types tell you exactly what's there. A quick spin will tell you what's around it. I can do both in the time it takes the FSD to spin up.

I'd wager that the FSS was fashioned into being a turret view was because a stated goal was that it should work in multicrew too.

I really wish it would give some small amount of credits to multicrew explorers. It's really neat to have more than one person using the FSS - both calling out whatever interesting things they see.

I think what he was getting at is that EDSM has a fairly decent sample size, enough to draw some general observations. Sure, you can debate how representative the sample is, but statistically speaking, a sample doesn't have to be a majority in order to draw useful conclusions.

It's a very skewed sample, that favors PC users and older players (that

I get the distinct impression a few of them think its pretty bad too. I may be wrong.

"I get the distinct impression that everyone secretly agrees with me."

 

[Jack Schitt]

You know that if you glance down you can see what ELWs/Water Worlds/Gas Giants are in the system, right? The gas giant types even have their own sections.

It would be nice if the spectrum could be put on the main HUD though. As it is you have to slow down and engage the FSS before you can glance at it. It only takes seconds (it's part of my muscle memory now and I barely notice) but it's quite a significant psychological hurdle when you first switch from ADS to FSS. One that some players may never clear.

the other night I was trying to scan a planet, and try as I might, nothing up was showing up in the 'blur'. I was close to logging a bug report until I noticed that the blur was actually moving each time I fired a discovery pulse.
Sure enough, I checked just to the left of the blur, and it turns out that the planet in question was orbiting so quickly that it was moving out of the blur.... the blur was more of a 'last seen at this point' indicator. I've since has this same thing happen a 2nd time with fast orbiting moons.

My guess is that if they didn't make you slow down first, barely any of the closer objects would be where the discovery pulse said they should be.

Your're probably right. I've seen movements in the FSS display when I've been travelling at high supercruise and have throttled down to engage the FSS, but of course those movements were slowing down. I assumed that all of the elements would continuously track inside the FSS display but if it works on the basis of non-realtime "snapshots" then high speed scanning might be off the table. This used to be one of the three bullet points on my FSS improvements wishlist, but if it's not technically viable then I can live with it the way it is.

Maybe some sort of throttle semi-automation would mollify at least some of the naysayers? Press the FSS entry key and the throttle auto-zeroes. Press the FSS exit key and the throttle returns to where it was.

This is why I find it odd that some folk think it's harder to find 'interesting' things - a single glance at the signal types tell you exactly what's there. A quick spin will tell you what's around it. I can do both in the time it takes the FSD to spin up.

Interesting. Maybe I have an usually fast FSD cooldown, or perhaps I'm concentrating too much on not hitting the star, but I generally find that by the time I've confirmed a safe scoop trajectory the FSD is already set to go. I'm also D-Scanning during this time. I don't engage the FSS until I'm outside of the star's heat zone, by which point FSD cooldown is irrelevant.

At this point what would be very nice is the ability to engage the jump sequence while glancing at the FSS spectrum, like you could with the (now largely empty) System Map, and have it automatically bring you back to the cockpit when the timer completes. It's been over a week since I did any exploration but as far as I recall you can't engage the FSS with the FSD charging. And even if you could, you have to throttle down which means the ship wouldn't auto-jump at T=0 anyway.

Personally I like the FSS as it but there's no denying it adds some delay to honk-and-scoop sprinting. I find it more than makes up for it in other areas, but there are a lot of other players dying on that small hill and a couple of QOL considerations might reduce the casualties a bit. The oft-requested "black sphere system map" may be too much of a step backwards for FD, but putting a passive version of the FSS spectrum on the HUD for a few seconds seems to me as though it would reduce an awful lot of the frustration.

 

[Cdr Voorheez]

Fact is the changes made in Exploration post 3.3 have changed exploration dynamics so massively it will be impossible to go back to the clunky inefficient pre 3.3 exploration mechanics.
Example of this: I played beta extensively pre 3.3 and loved the new exploration mechanics. After playing beta I found the return to pre 3.3 exploration mechanics God awful. By this rationale I think FD would lose many more players with a return to the old system rather than keep with the bold new mechanics we see now in place.

You will break a few eggs to make an awesome omelette.

Keep going FD. Love the changes. Like the majority of us.