Why is the heat management while scooping so bad on this FDS?

[bicarbon8]

Hi all,

I recently decided to try my hand at Thargoid combat and wanted a ship with a high hull integrity and low rebuy so I put together the following Federal Dropship https://s.orbis.zone/22s2

it is working well for learning the ins and outs of Thargoid combat, including being able to effectively manage the heat from the Guardian Gauss cannons, but the heat management of this ship, while scooping from a star, is quite bad. I would've thought that the G4 Armoured Power Plant with Thermal Spread effect would've helped here, but I still find that I can only scoop at a rate of 100/s without the heat from a star starting to cook the ship so I'm not even able to maximise the 3A Fuel Scoop I've installed.

I know that FDev has the ability to independently control ship heat handling across different areas like weapons and proximity to stars because the Mamba, which can sit as close as you like to a star when scooping, without ever overheating, will overheat very quickly when firing its weapons.

I don't quite understand though, the reasoning behind 1) Hull / Module reinforcements not improving heat resistances against close proximity stars and 2) having a multirole ship like the FDS have such bad heat resistance for stars in the first place... this would make more sense for a dedicated fighter ship where heat management would be prioritised towards the hardpoints.

Any ideas on what I can change on this FDS (without massively affecting my Thargoid combat resistances or my low rebuy) to help this ship handle scooping a bit better? I have access to all Bubble Engineers, if that helps the recommendations.

 

[Mugur]

Use a 4A or 5A fuel scoop.

 

[bicarbon8]

Use a 4A or 5A fuel scoop.

as mentioned in the OP, I'm not even able to get the most out of the 3A I already have installed because once I get close enough to the star to reach 100/s scoop rate, the ship starts accumulating massive amounts of heat

 

[Wasp0]

Use a 4A or 5A fuel scoop.

As Mugur said, but when at system where you will be killing bugs, have your 5D HRP sent down so you can change, then vica versa when coming home! I never travel with my full Combat/Cargo/Passenger etc etc modules. I travel as light as possible, and have a team of Imp Slaves transport my stuff out to the FOB (forward operating base).

 

[bicarbon8]

As Mugur said, but when at system where you will be killing bugs, have your 5D HRP sent down so you can change, then vica versa when coming home! I never travel with my full Combat/Cargo/Passenger etc etc modules. I travel as light as possible, and have a team of Imp Slaves transport my stuff out to the FOB (forward operating base).

heat is too bad for me to be able to make use of the extra scooping speed of a 4-5A Fuel Scoop... I would still overheat trying to get up to 300/s scoop rate.

 

[Wasp0]

heat is too bad for me to be able to make use of the extra scooping speed of a 4-5A Fuel Scoop... I would still overheat trying to get up to 300/s scoop rate.

Really?, well i hope a more knowledgeable cmdr can look at your build and solve the issue for you. It seems ok to me, but hey i am no expert.

Good luck in finding the issue. o7

 

[Lance 'Spacecat' D.]

This is part of the quirks of ships. Some ship hulls are naturally very heat efficient (the diamondbacks and Kraits for instance). Where others tend to heat up a little easily (type-6 and type-7) and some ships are downright -terrible- and can hardly scoop without engineering low emission power plants (The imperial courier feels like it's soaked in gasoline).

Since it's based on the hull, it's not easy to save these situations. You -could- try to use a low emission power plant but I wouldn't recommend it for a combat ship. So instead how about this trick: Turn off a bunch of modules when you have to scoop. Turn off those power hungry guardian guns in particular. It does help heat efficiency quite a lot if your power usage is in a low percentile of your plant's capacity.

 

[bicarbon8]

This is part of the quirks of ships. Some ship hulls are naturally very heat efficient (the diamondbacks and Kraits for instance). Where others tend to heat up a little easily (type-6 and type-7) and some ships are downright -terrible- and can hardly scoop without engineering low emission power plants (The imperial courier feels like it's soaked in gasoline).

Since it's based on the hull, it's not easy to save these situations. You -could- try to use a low emission power plant but I wouldn't recommend it for a combat ship. So instead how about this trick: Turn off a bunch of modules when you have to scoop. Turn off those power hungry guardian guns in particular. It does help heat efficiency quite a lot if your power usage is in a low percentile of your plant's capacity.

Thanks Lance, I'll give this a try. I'm pretty used to turning off any modules that put me over 100% power use so this wouldn't require any more brain power (I've very limited amounts there). Fingers crossed that this works

 

[paulca]

There are two dynamics here.

1. Sustained heat during sustained scooping.

No ship I have ever flown can sustain it's full scooping rate and not overheat.

2. Peak scoop rate versus time to overheat.

So... the better way is to use as large a fuel scoop as you can 4A, 5A or 6A and rush scoop. Just dive into the star, on full throttle while you line up with your next jump target and fly straight out again before you overheat. My Asp reaches a scooping rate of 750T/s but will overheat at that rate in about 10 seconds. However I don't hang around for 10 seconds. 5 or 6 seconds is enough to replace one jump of fuel.

If I need more, because I've made several jumps I either accept a lower rate and try and manage the heat (which is where I think you are having your issue), or.. I make multiple passes.

Generally speaking larger scoop = less time to scoop = less heat rise.

 

[bicarbon8]

No ship I have ever flown can sustain it's full scooping rate and not overheat.

you should try the Mamba, if you haven't already done so. That ship can stay in the zone forever. Same with the Type-10.

 

[Crank Larson]

This is part of the quirks of ships.

This.

My AspX can charge its FSD while scooping at full speed and I can usually keep the temperature below 100%. My Cutter would explode if I tried the same.

 

[Crank Larson]

No ship I have ever flown can sustain it's full scooping rate and not overheat.

Lots can, so long as you leave once your tank is full. Obviously if you sit right by a sun for too long you might get a little toasty...

 

[JetsonRING]

Any ideas on what I can change on this FDS (without massively affecting my Thargoid combat resistances or my low rebuy) to help this ship handle scooping a bit better?

My opinions, for what they are worth is that you could maybe get a 5A fuel-scoop and a 6C Bi-weave shield (enhanced low-power, fast recharge). Bi-weaves recharge a lot faster than A-rated shields and capability should be greater with the much larger shield generator. Then you can add a shield booster (0A, heavy duty, super capacitors) without your shield taking longer to recharge (bi-weave recharge times are not affected by shield boosters) as well as significantly cut down on your fuel-scooping time.

You should consider a 6A thruster module. Same mass, greater maneuverability and speed PLUS higher integrity than the 6C.

Since it is a "combat" ship I would A-rate the sensors and life-support. Sometimes those extra minutes of emergency air mean the difference between going back for round 2 and suffocating within sight of the landing-pad.

I believe a low-emissions power plant will run cooler than an armored one but I am not 100% sure.

One more point: I do not know about your fuel-scooping style but scooping at a fuel-scoop's maximum rate will quickly overheat the ship. Backing off somewhat on the scooping rate (don't get so close) may solve your scooping problem without any changes to the ship although that will increase your scooping time. A much larger fuel-scoop will help with this as well.

In general, but not always: depending on what I am using the ship for I will use the largest optional module slot for a shield generator, then the next largest slot for the fuel scoop, or vice-versa. o7

 

[AlexAndTheDJ]

Never had an issue overheating when scooping. . . but then I don't use anything less than class 5 for fuel scoops. 3's are damn slow!

 

[Crank Larson]

Sometimes those extra minutes of emergency air mean the difference between going back for round 2 and suffocating within sight of the landing-pad.

You can synthesize air, so no need to worry about the life support.

 

[Eukanuba23]

A bigger scoop would help inasmuch as you'd get a faster rate at the same distance from the star.

 

[Strangepork]

Hi all,

I recently decided to try my hand at Thargoid combat and wanted a ship with a high hull integrity and low rebuy so I put together the following Federal Dropship https://s.orbis.zone/22s2

it is working well for learning the ins and outs of Thargoid combat, including being able to effectively manage the heat from the Guardian Gauss cannons, but the heat management of this ship, while scooping from a star, is quite bad. I would've thought that the G4 Armoured Power Plant with Thermal Spread effect would've helped here, but I still find that I can only scoop at a rate of 100/s without the heat from a star starting to cook the ship so I'm not even able to maximise the 3A Fuel Scoop I've installed.

I know that FDev has the ability to independently control ship heat handling across different areas like weapons and proximity to stars because the Mamba, which can sit as close as you like to a star when scooping, without ever overheating, will overheat very quickly when firing its weapons.

I don't quite understand though, the reasoning behind 1) Hull / Module reinforcements not improving heat resistances against close proximity stars and 2) having a multirole ship like the FDS have such bad heat resistance for stars in the first place... this would make more sense for a dedicated fighter ship where heat management would be prioritised towards the hardpoints.

Any ideas on what I can change on this FDS (without massively affecting my Thargoid combat resistances or my low rebuy) to help this ship handle scooping a bit better? I have access to all Bubble Engineers, if that helps the recommendations.

You want a practical fighter? Look elsewhere, maybe Northrup Grummond.

 

[JetsonRING]

You can synthesize air, so no need to worry about the life support.

I did not realize that. Maybe time for me to trade in the A-rated life support. o7

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Can you post vid of you scooping? Wth your hardpoints retracted it looks like you have great low power draw and a nice 0.32 coefficient. You should be scooping easy peasy, albeit slowly due to size 3. Dropship has decent to good heat handling (see: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/286628-Research-Detailed-Heat-Mechanics).

So I wonder about your technique.

I have a chally build with 3A, I just kind of have accepted scooping will be slow, but I never worry about overheating. FDS has similar heat capacity as chally and I think your build is lower draw than mine.

 

[bicarbon8]

My opinions, for what they are worth is that you could maybe get a 5A fuel-scoop and a 6C Bi-weave shield (enhanced low-power, fast recharge). Bi-weaves recharge a lot faster than A-rated shields and capability should be greater with the much larger shield generator. Then you can add a shield booster (0A, heavy duty, super capacitors) without your shield taking longer to recharge (bi-weave recharge times are not affected by shield boosters) as well as significantly cut down on your fuel-scooping time.

This ship is only for Thargoid hunting and Thargoid attacks bleed through the shields, from what I can tell, so I'm not gaining anything by increasing my shield strength. Also, a 6C Bi-weave costs 2.6 million whereas the Hull Reinforcement I'm currently using is only 450,000 which saves on the rebuy cost. A shield booster uses too much power for this build which would increase my heat buildup because I would be over 100% usage

You should consider a 6A thruster module. Same mass, greater maneuverability and speed PLUS higher integrity than the 6C.

doing so would significantly increase my rebuy cost, which is why I've chosen the C-rated thrusters. The difference in max and boost speed, when engineered with G5-Dirty Drives is fairly low and the pitch, yaw and roll rates are sufficient on the C's for Thargoid battles.

One more point: I do not know about your fuel-scooping style but scooping at a fuel-scoop's maximum rate will quickly overheat the ship. Backing off somewhat on the scooping rate (don't get so close) may solve your scooping problem without any changes to the ship although that will increase your scooping time. A much larger fuel-scoop will help with this as well.

this is not true of all ships, for example the Mamba and the Type-10 can scoop at maximum rate indefinitely

Can you post vid of you scooping? Wth your hardpoints retracted it looks like you have great low power draw and a nice 0.32 coefficient. You should be scooping easy peasy, albeit slowly due to size 3. Dropship has decent to good heat handling (see: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/286628-Research-Detailed-Heat-Mechanics).

So I wonder about your technique.

I have a chally build with 3A, I just kind of have accepted scooping will be slow, but I never worry about overheating. FDS has similar heat capacity as chally and I think your build is lower draw than mine.

I have some videos recorded, but won't have time to edit them down for this straight away so, in the meantime, I'll just try to explain my technique:

after dropping from a Hyperspace jump I align my ship so that the Scanning Mode UI aligns with the horizon of the star (this is the straight blue line formed on the HUD, above the Heatsink or Dicso Scanner depending on if the star is to my left or right), then, as fuel scooping starts I try to maintain a distance that equates to a scoop rate of 100/s (because any higher starts to gain heat very quickly). Then, I fly circles around the star, scooping. If I get closer to the star for a rate of 130/s or more, the ship begins to gain massive amounts of heat, but at the 100/s scoop-rate distance I can park the ship and wait for refueling to complete. The 100/s rate is far less than my equipped scoop handles though so I'm not really getting much out of it, meaning scooping takes longer than it theoretically could if I was able to maximise the scoop-rate of my current fuel scoop.