It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

[deleteduser]

Apart from all the arguments that have been made against it (and I am too lazy too add those who haven't been made yet), there is also the ultimate argument: I can simply change my router settings to avoid other players. Requires 5 minutes and there isn's something that can be done about it.

No sustainable arguments have been made so far, but yes you're right, people can and will cheat. Regardless of anything else, there will always be those looking to cheat others.

Like those previous arguments, and as far from being the 'Ultimate Argument' as it's possible to get without effort, this one is not sustainable against the proposal.

 

[jasonbarron]

Have we actually had even a single person in this thread since after the WP1 launch that has actually come and cried about being ganked while playing in open? If so, please let me know, and i'll point my finger and laugh at them.

I've always maintained that you dedicated Mobius types were the cruelest of the cruel, but despite that this kind of surprised me; mocking a fellow explorer for getting destroyed. Dollars to donuts these guys are just poor schmuck's who simply don't know any better and are learning the (very) hard way. I've noticed that over on the DWE special sub whenever someone does mention getting blown up in Open, the Fleetcomm brigade shows up pronto to ridicule them for their mode choice and marginalize their suffering. Essentially throwing them under the bus as soon as possible to try and end the discussion.

In contrast, the DG gang is always cool to anyone who wants to open a dialogue with them. Kind of makes you stop and think on who the real bad guys are in this situation?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

There doesn't have to be. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...amity-through-lightweight-solid-shield-builds

I'm not sure what the majority of gankers on DW2 are packing, but i highly suspect those shields you present will melt pretty quickly under the firepower of a ganker.

Still, you raise a good point, but 2LY is 2LY over a very long trip... a trip where you only need to think about this because there are players out there who get their jollies from killing targets who can't fight back.

Just think about that for a minute, let it sink in.

Isn't it also funny how ganking is being celebrated among certain people around here? I have no idea why people think this is something to be celebrated or applauded. PvP should be about skill, risk, challenge, at least in my mind... just seems like when some people talk about the risk of PvP they mean only risk for others, not themselves.

What a lovely sentiment. But you'll only be qualified to "laugh" at braver CDMRs when you can do it yourself and survive based on your wits. But even then, it's def not a classy move. In any case, you don't get to decide who belongs in Open. It's literally Open to everyone because it belongs to everyone.

Of course i'd be laughing, because the game provides options to avoid being killed, and considering how much attention these things get, just about anyone should be aware of the risks of open and how some people get their jollies from blowing up targets that can't fight back. Hell yeah i'd laugh. What i presume from your response is though, nobody has actually complained in this thread about being blown up while in open. I was blown up 3 times, i didn't complain, i laughed. But why should someone want to "survive" ganks when they can just play in PG and not have to bother? Of course i don't get to decide who belongs in open, that's a silly thing to say, its personal choice... and if someone decides to do DW2 in open, then its their choice, and if they get blown up while in open, and get salty about it, i reserve the right to laugh about it.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I believe my ship is good enough to high wake unless 4 players attack me simultaneously. That's why I am playing in Open. I believe it would be better if player interaction involves more than high waking though.

I have to ask though, why you do so? Do you get a thrill from being attacked while out exploring? Ok, if so, that's cool.

Personally, i just don't see the point. If i'm out exploring, i'm out exploring. Combat can wait for another day.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I've always maintained that you dedicated Mobius types were the cruelest of the cruel, but despite that this kind of surprised me; mocking a fellow explorer for getting destroyed. Dollars to donuts these guys are just poor schmuck's who simply don't know any better and are learning the (very) hard way. I've noticed that over on the DWE special sub whenever someone does mention getting blown up in Open, the Fleetcomm brigade shows up pronto to ridicule them for their mode choice and marginalize their suffering. Essentially throwing them under the bus as soon as possible to try and end the discussion.

In contrast, the DG gang is always cool to anyone who wants to open a dialogue with them. Kind of makes you stop and think on who the real bad guys are in this situation?

Oh come on, i said i'd laugh at those who chose open and then complained about it, and i'm pretty sure you'd be laughing right alongside me.

Besides, i'm not in Mobius all the time... hell, not even 10% of the time, even when in PGs its not often im in Mobius, its just one of several PGs i'm a member of - Mobius has become a bit of a bogeyman for certain players, well out of proportion to what is warranted i would say. I flit between all modes as the mood suits me. For example, i'm drinking at the moment, so i'll be flying in solo, because i don't want to be a danger to others

I fly open a fair bit as well, because as we all know, there's no real additional risk in flying in open most of the time. But dayum, if that's true, then it would trash the argument that open should get bonuses to PP and the BGS and all those other things....

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

*Runs past with toy spaceships*

Pewpew! Pewpew! Kaboooosh!

 

[babelfisch]

I have to ask though, why you do so? Do you get a thrill from being attacked while out exploring? Ok, if so, that's cool.

Personally, i just don't see the point. If i'm out exploring, i'm out exploring. Combat can wait for another day.

Sorry, should've clarified that it was a general statement, not limited to exploring.

I could see a point for combat during exploration under certain circumstances, but they aren't given in the current situation. Let's say there would be a ship with prototype tech missing and different corporations / factions are rushing out to find it. A competitor could try to stop others from finding it before them. Sadly this kind of gameplay isn't really possible in Elite. That's one of the rare cases where I agree it should be Open Only, but it's very hypothetical anyway.

 

[Lazuras Poe]

Practical question:
Whats the alpha dps of an average engineered ship out chasing explorers?
Whats the best that an unengineered exploration ship with all the bells and whistles that an exploration ship might have like srvs, afmus, fighter bay, etc, plus minimun 50 ly range.

 

[Sysmon]

I have to ask though, why you do so? Do you get a thrill from being attacked while out exploring? Ok, if so, that's cool.

Personally, i just don't see the point. If i'm out exploring, i'm out exploring. Combat can wait for another day.

Isn't exploring about seeing the unknown, and therefore accepting the unexpected? I think the main issue with exploration is that it hasn't been inherently dangerous enough; people felt they could get away with shield-less ships focussed entirely on maximising jump range. And we have been able to sidle all the way up to the body exclusion zones of black holes without anything bad happen, fly near stars and through asteroid belts without any danger from particles of any size or type. And there are very few to no baddies outside the main population centres.

I think explorers should at least make sure their ships can survive long enough for a high wake, and be able to perform a high wake well enough to get away from troublemakers, be it players or NPCs. From that perspective, DG is actually doing us a favour by reminding everybody that the game is after all still called Elite Dangerous.

S

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Practical question:
Whats the alpha dps of an average engineered ship out chasing explorers?
Whats the best that an unengineered exploration ship with all the bells and whistles that an exploration ship might have like srvs, afmus, fighter bay, etc, plus minimun 50 ly range.

First, how is an unengineered exploration ship with bells and whistles reaching 50ly jump? I believe this is literally impossible.

In any case an unengineered DW2 ship is toast, you will get no argument from me on this. I hate the divide that FDev has created with horizons and the engineering grindwall and post this sentiment often.

However most DW2 explorers have at least some engineering - due to FSD long range & guardian boost for that jump range you mention.

I put together a 2-engineer-only (martuuk + farseer, the easiest unlocks) Phantom build including SRV, AMFU, etc. that I believe can escape from my conda if piloted properly. It has ~55 ly jump.

The DPS is highly dependent on range. Time-to-kill @ 1000 meters (assuming I land all shots, e.g. pilot just stands still and lets me attack) is only ~0:11 seconds, but @ 3000 meters is close to 0:30 and at 4000 is more like 2:30.

The real problem is that the phantom needs the situational awareness and calm reaction to not let me hit at close range. This is quite possible, since that phantom is almost 150m/s faster than I am, much more agile, and can use heat sinks to interrupt my targeting. If I am landing all shots, this is a very bad sign - I am in a sluggish ship that can be evaded quite handily.

However during my last attack I comms'ed the pilot twice while they were in the station to warn CMDR I would attack when CMDR departed the station. I do not think CMDR read comms or even checked for hollows based on how the departure went. There is nothing you can do to save a pilot in open who is that unaware of his/her surroundings. With advance notice of the danger I literally told CMDR twice, CMDR had numerous options for escape, especially since CMDR had a 5km head start due to my need to keep distance from station.

CMDR began departure by rapidly closing the 5km gap between us - probably the worst possible option CMDR had. If CMDR simply boosted at altitude ~400m directly away from station until well beyond my danger range then CMDR would certainly have escaped completely unharmed.

For a fully G5 engineered phantom the time to kill is nearly double that of the mildly engineered one I mentioned. For a g5 conda with bells and whistles, it is over a full minute just standing still and enduring my full DPS @ 1000m.

 

[Ziljan]

Practical question:
Whats the alpha dps of an average engineered ship out chasing explorers?
Whats the best that an unengineered exploration ship with all the bells and whistles that an exploration ship might have like srvs, afmus, fighter bay, etc, plus minimun 50 ly range.

Alpha damage vs the build I provided would last about 1 min vs 1 PVP ship. Your FSD cooldown last about 10 seconds most of which is spent recovering from the drop. The other guy will typically come into your instance and be able to deploy weapons about the same time the FSD cooldown wears off, and his wingmates (if any will drop some time after). This means you only need to survive about 15 secs that it takes to charge a highwake. Or if you have a larger MLF, you can low wake in 5 seconds, immediately drop to normal space and then highwake in peace.

The real danger is in fighting someone who can reboot your FSD or has a wing that can kill you faster than you can jump out. It's unlikely that you'll take full alpha damage for the full 15 seconds it takes to charge a highwake, so you could theoretically get away from even a wing. So it's the minimum amount of defense imo. You can always and easily add more defense and other anti-FSD disrupt measures to make it nigh unkillable.

 

[Saikun]

Open Mode Only Powerplay won't happen for one reason:

Fairness x Balance.

In order to even go into PVP in Open Mode, you need to unlock Prismatic Shields or the weapon that can break them easily - through Powerplay. Ergo, being murdered in PVP in pursuit for weapon to PVP defeats the idea of said pursuit. To make it fair and square, all PP progress would need to be nullified and PP equipment to be REMOVED if such a change would happen in order to prevent self-defeating circle of doom in which theoretical pre-update players have a major advantage over the players who would be trying to get it post-update.

Side effects? Players whining that they spent weeks on PP and they lost their progress.

TL;DR Powerplay in Open Mode only would be one reason not to go Open Mode due to PVP disbalance.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

The real danger is in fighting someone who can reboot your FSD

I agree with all your facts, but assert the real danger is situational unawareness. I don't think I've needed/landed my FSD reboot once, and all my attacks have been 1v1, usually with advance warning via comms - I suppose I'm not a very good ganker. Unless you go by my DG2 kill rate, which is 88%/84%/61% depending on whether clogs count as kills, omit, or escapes. I think those stats have more to do with my targets' piloting than my own.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Open Mode Only Powerplay won't happen for one reason:

Fairness x Balance.

In order to even go into PVP in Open Mode, you need to unlock Prismatic Shields or the weapon that can break them easily - through Powerplay. Ergo, being murdered in PVP in pursuit for weapon to PVP defeats the idea of said pursuit. To make it fair and square, all PP progress would need to be nullified and PP equipment to be REMOVED if such a change would happen in order to prevent self-defeating circle of doom in which theoretical pre-update players have a major advantage over the players who would be trying to get it post-update.

Side effects? Players whining that they spent weeks on PP and they lost their progress.

TL;DR Powerplay in Open Mode only would be one reason not to go Open Mode due to PVP disbalance.

Eh? Engineering like phasing and reverb don't care about shields to begin with. Prismatics are one possible choice of a few PvP loadouts with prismatics being a nice to have but not be all modules.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Open Mode Only Powerplay won't happen for one reason:

Fairness x Balance.

In order to even go into PVP in Open Mode, you need to unlock Prismatic Shields or the weapon that can break them easily - through Powerplay. Ergo, being murdered in PVP in pursuit for weapon to PVP defeats the idea of said pursuit. To make it fair and square, all PP progress would need to be nullified and PP equipment to be REMOVED if such a change would happen in order to prevent self-defeating circle of doom in which theoretical pre-update players have a major advantage over the players who would be trying to get it post-update.

Side effects? Players whining that they spent weeks on PP and they lost their progress.

TL;DR Powerplay in Open Mode only would be one reason not to go Open Mode due to PVP disbalance.

One advantage of open only powerplay would be turning those control systems which regularly get 500% fortification into hotspots for PvP hunting. That would hopefully encourage people to shift fortification cargo to other systems. I agree rewards need looking at (esp. mining lance), although I don't think any of the rewards are a game changer if you're trying to escape after being interdicted.

 

[Rampant]

Simpler to make it a hard split - leave the existing tri-modal system with its BGS and create a mono-modal BGS for those who can't accept that the BGS is affected from Solo / Private Groups - no switching.

One time choice between the two, to be made before a specified number of hours played.

.... except that there'd likely need to be three versions of the Open only BGS - one for each platform - to satisfy those who *must* be able to confront any player affecting *their* game.

This *should* provide the epiphany that every single player needs to realise that BGS can't realistically be split and that "Open Only" content is a dead request with no future or realistic expectation to be implemented.

Sadly, we just get refusal to accept the profound implications that result...

Slàinte Mhath

Mark H

 

[Ziljan]

In order to even go into PVP in Open Mode, you need to unlock Prismatic Shields or the weapon that can break them easily - through Powerplay. Ergo, being murdered in PVP in pursuit for weapon to PVP defeats the idea of said pursuit. To make it fair and square, all PP progress would need to be nullified and PP equipment to be REMOVED if such a change would happen in order to prevent self-defeating circle of doom in which theoretical pre-update players have a major advantage over the players who would be trying to get it post-update.

Side effects? Players whining that they spent weeks on PP and they lost their progress.

TL;DR Powerplay in Open Mode only would be one reason not to go Open Mode due to PVP disbalance.

This might feel true to you right now, but nothing you said above is remotely accurate. You don't need prismatics. You don't need PP weapons. There are 748 PP control systems only a handful of which are active with players at any given time. And the only PP progress you lose from dying is from the last time you turned in Merit transactions, which get reset every week, so it is impossible to "lose weeks worth of progress".

I agree with all your facts, but assert the real danger is situational unawareness. I don't think I've needed/landed my FSD reboot once, and all my attacks have been 1v1, usually with advance warning via comms - I suppose I'm not a very good ganker. Unless you go by my DG2 kill rate, which is 88%/84%/61% depending on whether clogs count as kills, omit, or escapes. I think those stats have more to do with my targets' piloting than my own.

Situational awareness is key to avoiding getting into normal space with you in the first place. But in the case of a lightweight hard target fleeing from normal space, the only situational awareness that they'll need is to know where your wing mate gankers are. Otherwise in the anaconda build I proposed, all they need to do is put 4 pips to sys and hotkey their "target next system" button and always have a system loaded and ready to go with LOS. They could even just face tank you at point blank range for 15 secs and maybe type a quick "bye felicia!" in chat if there's just 1 of you, and no one has dumbfire/mining FSD reboot or groms.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I'm not sure what the majority of gankers on DW2 are packing, but i highly suspect those shields you present will melt pretty quickly under the firepower of a ganker.

You're joking. Those shields are monsters. Ridiculously so.

If someone can't escape a gank with those shields they need to just uninstall and play another game.

This is just more evidence of people putting virtually no effort into the understanding of the game mechanics.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

the only situational awareness that they'll need is to know where your wing mate gankers are.

[...] They could even just face tank you at point blank range for 15 secs and maybe type a quick "bye felicia!" in chat if there's just 1 of you, and no one has dumbfire/mining FSD reboot or groms.

Like I said, it's just me, no wing mates. Over 80% "success" by any reasonable accounting. Many (most?) with advance warning via comms, including the conda with two shield rings broken who double clogged to my SRV.

I think you take certain things for granted that I would count as situational awareness for explorers. These are things such as "there are people who want to kill you in open".

Of course I have FSD reboot. Since you're in PC galaxy no one is going to facetank me and have a good time. But it would be nice if PS4 galaxy had a Ziljan type pilot who could pull off a "bye felicia" on me. That would be hilarious! (not sarcastic)

 

[Riverside]

I agree with all your facts, but assert the real danger is situational unawareness. I don't think I've needed/landed my FSD reboot once, and all my attacks have been 1v1, usually with advance warning via comms - I suppose I'm not a very good ganker. Unless you go by my DG2 kill rate, which is 88%/84%/61% depending on whether clogs count as kills, omit, or escapes. I think those stats have more to do with my targets' piloting than my own.

The thing that will get an inexperienced player into trouble is panicking in a time critical situation. This just requires experience to overcome. Next would be situational awareness (an acquired skill of knowing what's important & what's less of a concern). Anything to do with ship loadout would be at least third on the list. FSD reboot only matters if you are trying to jump away for example.