A question to Elite FA-Off Combat pilots

[dunno]

If you engage in Combat against another Elite who's proficient in FA-Off combat, do you easily or readily get on your oponents tail, or do you just joust like everyone else does ?.

I notice that Gwankers don't engage each other, is this because there's no maneuvering advantage, evenly matched so there's no point in engaging a equal ?.

 

[Lestat]

If you engage in Combat against another Elite who's proficient in FA-Off combat, do you easily or readily get on your oponents tail, or do you just joust like everyone else does ?.

I notice that Gwankers don't engage each other, is this because there's no maneuvering advantage, evenly matched so there's no point in engaging a equal ?.

I tend to use FA-Off only when turning sharply until I use trigger which automaticly disable FA-Off. But the more you practice the better FA-Off becomes.

I remember watching a video in early 2014 2015. With a pilot playing around a station in a sidewinder just in FA-Off.

[video=youtube;2_1UBermOgg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_1UBermOgg[/video][video=youtube;UuN8qVkO1lU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuN8qVkO1lU[/video]

 

[dunno]

Thanks for your reply, but, does FA-Off enableyou to readily acquire your opponents tail, or do you still joust with your opponent ?.

I've watched hours of FA-Off videos, only one demonstrates in a tutorial against a NPC how FA-Off enables him to out turn his opponent and remain on its tail, great against a NPC, but, against humans who're Elite it seems kinda pointless. I'm merely wondering whether its worthwhile learning to fly FA-Off if it doesn't provide a advantage, I have no desire to PvP with Gwankers, and I easily destroy any NPC.

 

[Lestat]

Thanks for your reply, but, does FA-Off enableyou to readily acquire your opponents tail, or do you still joust with your opponent ?.

Question what are the two ships you are talking about. Two Same/mod ships. I think it would be a dance of death you know trying to sidestep each other. using boast to get that advantage with FA-Off. If the target was a larger ship and you are in a small ship. It would be close and dirty and flank that ship.

I've watched hours of FA-Off videos, only one demonstrates in a tutorial against a NPC how FA-Off enables him to out turn his opponent and remain on its tail, great against a NPC, but, against humans who're Elite it seems kinda pointless. I'm merely wondering whether its worthwhile learning to fly FA-Off if it doesn't provide a advantage, I have no desire to PvP with Gwankers, and I easily destroy any NPC.

FA-Off has a huge advantage if you can keep your bead on your target and turn faster. But keeping the discipline of FA-Off and keep that control is hard.

 

[Morbad]

I've watched hours of FA-Off videos, only one demonstrates in a tutorial against a NPC how FA-Off enables him to out turn his opponent and remain on its tail, great against a NPC

It's generally not easier to do this with FA off if one has decent command over vertical/lateral thrust.

FA off does allow one to keep velocity up while orbiting and makes the lead indicator more accurate for most projectiles as you don't get the FA deceleration (which is amplified) kicking in and changing velocity vector in difficult to predict ways.

 

[dunno]

It's generally not easier to do this with FA off if one has decent command over vertical/lateral thrust.

FA off does allow one to keep velocity up while orbiting and makes the lead indicator more accurate for most projectiles as you don't get the FA deceleration (which is amplified) kicking in and changing velocity vector in difficult to predict ways.

Yes I noticed during one of my 14 deaths yesterday that the longest I lasted was against the TOP Gwanker in the 'Verse' by doing the unpredictable, the disadvantage to this was that I couldn't bring my weapons to bear so I stowed the silly things and kept going, joust, side slip, yaw, in crazy directions, I executed maneuvers (cluelessly FA-Off) that would've made a floor gymnast at the Olympics proud, but... difficult to aim.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

We're not flying Spitfires and Messerschmidts in elite, so you don't have to get on their tail [haha]

I find one of the main advantages of FAoff is that you don't necessarily need to get on your opponents tail while both of you fly "forward" to shoot them; instead, because you have decoupled your vector (direction of travel) and your attitude (direction your ship is facing), you can fly in parallel to them at their side and keep your weapons pointing at the sides of their ship. Or, a much more basic FAoff tactic, is you can "reverski" (fly same direction then using FA off turn to face them, this is a very old, regarded as lame, but still fairly effective, tactic though.

If you imagine your opponents ship as having a 10-15° cone growing out of it denoting the area that its fixed and gimballed weapons can hit you in, that leaves you 345-350° of pitch & yaw around your target giving you nearly a complete sphere in which you can position your ship while keeping out of their weapons arcs of fire. This however, obviously doesnt apply to turrets. As long as your position is such that the direct line from their ship to yours is in this larger safe sphere rather than the narrow danger cone, you have an advantage. And if your ship is pointing in that direction of the direct line, regardless of what direction you are travelling in, you can fire on them. Using FAoff for combat creates more opportunities for those two things to line up making it easier to win engagements, however it does require more proficiency from the pilot.

There are many good guides to FAoff on youtube should you wish to develop those skills. After a while of flying FAoff it just feels oh so much more natural and satisfying, although I'd say I personally couldnt do it without six analogue axis' on my controller set up, I have next to no idea how the keyboard and mouse guys do FAoff. Although having said that, from other discussions I gather that relative mouse offers greater precision for aiming, so maybe it offers a similar advantage for FAoff?

 

[GunnerBill]

Thanks for your reply, but, does FA-Off enableyou to readily acquire your opponents tail, or do you still joust with your opponent ?.

I've watched hours of FA-Off videos, only one demonstrates in a tutorial against a NPC how FA-Off enables him to out turn his opponent and remain on its tail, great against a NPC, but, against humans who're Elite it seems kinda pointless. I'm merely wondering whether its worthwhile learning to fly FA-Off if it doesn't provide a advantage, I have no desire to PvP with Gwankers, and I easily destroy any NPC.

I wouldn't overly worry about getting on an opponents tail. The tastiest bits are usually the belly or top of the ship. Bigger target and the shortest distance to any modules you may be targeting.

In any respect I find boost turning with FA-Off most effective (for me).

You might also want to work in a quick flick of the landing gear or cargo hatch in order to control the boost so that you don't over shoot. Don't forget to stow it though after!

 

[dunno]

Thank you all for your replies, this discussion has helped me break my mindset from the "get on tail" paradigm and I'll now focus on FA-Off parallel flight with 'Close Ups' of the sides of the opponent, and round and round the merry go-around they go.

You might also want to work in a quick flick of the landing gear or cargo hatch in order to control the boost so that you don't over shoot. Don't forget to stow it though after!

I'm going to experiment with decreasing weight and smaller thrusters in order to decrease boost speed whilst maintaining or increasing agility, maybe D rate everything, or, keep A rated thrusters, D everything else, it'll require experimentation to see which offers better sustained high maneuverability with sequential boost.

I just wish there was a elite FA-Off NPC opponent which one could practice against in order to build correct muscle memory from the get go, its so counter productive learning a "bad Habit".

 

[Madrax573]

As a 100% FA-off'er getting on someones tails is not as relevent as time on target. ToT is far more powerful than getting on the 'tail' of someone. Jousting is a tactic or trying to out damage your opponent by getting more ToT.
Why joust when you can get loads of ToT by simply flying FA-off and pointing at your target regardless of vector.

When you stop thinking of the combat in terms of dogfighting you get an openess that allows you to engage in all manner of scenarios with great effectiveness.

 

[Hellfire85]

As a 100% FA-off'er getting on someones tails is not as relevent as time on target. ToT is far more powerful than getting on the 'tail' of someone. Jousting is a tactic or trying to out damage your opponent by getting more ToT.
Why joust when you can get loads of ToT by simply flying FA-off and pointing at your target regardless of vector.

When you stop thinking of the combat in terms of dogfighting you get an openess that allows you to engage in all manner of scenarios with great effectiveness.

It greatly depends on what you are facing. if it's a ship with lots of weapons and lots of time on target, you need to stay on his six. this is where toggling comes into play, also, boost bleeding.

Despite what some might think (even I did before) full FA off in competitive PvP is not ideal and using FA-on to quickly change direction, evade, also, get a sort of "catapulting" effect when toggling from FA-on to FA-off on a turn helps a lot.

If you stay constantly in FA off, your movement becomes almost predictable as the change in direction is smooth and the deceleration is slower than in FA-on.

ofc, this mostly applies to PvP. NPCs can't cope with FA-off since they don't use it themselves.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

If your in a small or medium ship vs the big 4 you most definitely should still be trying to maintain nose to tail tactics.
It looks from your forum name you are an Aussie? If your on Xbox I'd be happy to practice with you.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

If your in a small or medium ship vs the big 4 you most definitely should still be trying to maintain nose to tail tactics.
It looks from your forum name you are an Aussie? If your on Xbox I'd be happy to practice with you.

Actually the most effective positions against the big bois is on the sides of them. They have zero yaw in comparison to nigh on everything else bar the T9 so it's the most irritating place you can sit. Being on the tail is an easier result but theres nothing more frustrating to your opponent than being millimeteres from larget range but never quite getting there.

More often than not this irritation ends up causing your opponent to make further mistakes.

Mind games are just as important in this game as combat knowledge or positioning. If you can psyche out your opponent and make them screw up you've often easy wins on your hands.


The red mist is a good one for that too. Big ship pilots are awful for this, if they see HP ticking down, irrespective of how slowly, and you're in front of thier guns, they will do anything to keep that position against a faster, more mobile ship (Viper IV is PERFECT for this), this fairly often resuts in the pilot becoming so focused on killing you that he's not noticed you about to drop his shields and snipe his modules untill it's too late.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I notice that Gwankers don't engage each other

Lol. We kill each other constantly. You'll improve faster if you're objective about things.

Don't get too hung up on fa-off. Ideally one should be proficient at flying in it, and toggle to the most useful mode at the moment (fa-off giving generally better handling and acceleration, is less predictable to opponent; fa-on giving deceleration buffs and arguably better for aiming rails especially on certain control inputs).

However there are tons of other things that will make a huge difference as well. Pip management and loadout being (arguably) as important as fa-off. My money is on an fa-on pilot who has good throttle/pip management in a well built ship versus a pilot who knows fa-off well flying a mediocre ship locked to 2 2 2 (in practice, any good fa-off pilot will also know build and pips). Likewise incorporating lats/verts - something many newer pilots ignore.

As far as jousting or not, this is also ship dependent. A pair of Mambas/Clippers will probably end up jousting. A Viper 3 is unlikely to joust an Anaconda.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

I notice that Gwankers don't engage each other, is this because there's no maneuvering advantage, evenly matched so there's no point in engaging a equal ?.

 

[dunno]

It looks from your forum name you are an Aussie? If your on Xbox I'd be happy to practice with you.

I'm UTC +4 and on PC.

Thanks for your offer, I'll try to locate someone in open to practice with.

 

[Madrax573]

It greatly depends on what you are facing. if it's a ship with lots of weapons and lots of time on target, you need to stay on his six. this is where toggling comes into play, also, boost bleeding.

Despite what some might think (even I did before) full FA off in competitive PvP is not ideal and using FA-on to quickly change direction, evade, also, get a sort of "catapulting" effect when toggling from FA-on to FA-off on a turn helps a lot.

If you stay constantly in FA off, your movement becomes almost predictable as the change in direction is smooth and the deceleration is slower than in FA-on.

ofc, this mostly applies to PvP. NPCs can't cope with FA-off since they don't use it themselves.

Yup agree but this really is more around actual use of tactics rather than being on the six so to speak.

Getting on the six is simply a mechanism or evading the majority of weapon systems in ED. but a lot of people seem to surmise that being on the six is the key to killing your opponent. ToT and overall damage output is the key to killing anything.
Damage mitigation is the goal of sitting on the six and some module targeting of thrusters for example but primarily a damage mitigation issue.

For me I fly full Fa-off just cos I like the feeling rather than any idea of an advantage. As for FA-off being almost predictable I put this down to individual pilot skill rather than flight selection as I've known many who are downright hard to hit regardless of assist or not.

 

[dunno]

Not sure if that helps the OP as he certainly has PvP in mind...

Yes PvP.

But no to OP's question, I don't think you can get on one's six unless your opponent would be a fresh pilot, regardless of how good you actually are.

Yes I noticed, while watching PvP'ers at the anarchy CG yesterday, that seldom does one attain a definitive nose to tail position, its mostly going around in large circles, sometimes jousting with stall turns, but to me a stall turn makes one a sitting duck.

Thank you all, lots to ponder.

 

[NCFCpaul]

Just picked up this thread, can someone advise how to do the following: use my FGS to brutally strafe big ships?

I keep reading people saying that it's easy to do FA off but I end up face on the opponent jousting.

 

[DeletedUser191218]

If you engage in Combat against another Elite who's proficient in FA-Off combat, do you easily or readily get on your oponents tail, or do you just joust like everyone else does ?.

I notice that Gwankers don't engage each other, is this because there's no maneuvering advantage, evenly matched so there's no point in engaging a equal ?.

Just depends. Don't use fa off all the time though. I did it for a period of time but realised it's not an efficient use of it. You need to learn when to toggle it off and on, to get the most from either mode. It makes a big difference though once you learn it, but you still want to be turning in the blue zone - or even fa off turns are achingly slow.

There will be those that tell you to use fa off all the time. Trust me on this - they're wrong.