Frontier and the flack they receive....

[Ferran]

Finally

Finally! Someone said it!

I can't play PC that much, but I do watch plenty of youtube PC videos regularly. PC is the game of your dreams if you enjoy the building part, no other same genre game is that beautifully crafted.
I myself would like a more in depth management and better balance, and I even agree with most of the feature requests and criticisms.

However, I check the forums quite regularly, and, honestly, I'm really fed up with most of the more vocal users in here.
Some are even complaining about a DLC that hasn't even been announced..
PC won't be ever perfect, and surely, never completely finished (like Disneyland).
This is how things work, how business work, and how software development works.
Stop complaining and grow out of it.

We have an amazing game, but sometimes you seem to can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[mr.sugar]

For the most part I would think the criticism is mostly out of love for the game. A great game with some minor annoying issues can be more infuriating than a truly horrible game.

Criticism is also the life blood for improvements. Nothing destroys projects and companies faster than culture that suppresses criticism and starts to believe it's own rosy and PR.

Someone had to say it!
i don’t blast frontier. I’m happy and thankful with whatever they take the time to make and give us. I’m not picky that way. It actually drives me nuts when people complain about some aspect of a new ride or scenery when we should just be happy they gave it to us in the first place....like the horror heights ride for example.

No, read the post above. TheQuixote is right. You paid for a product with promise of future updates. That doesn´t mean you shouldn´t complain if you find anything wrong with the updates. Complaining doesn´t mean people are picky. And if everyone was "not picky" and pretty much passive, even this game wouldn´t be what it is now, it would very likely be worse... If you feel that YOU should be happy for whatever they give you, all right, but OTHERS might feel it differently. And these people will get louder and louder if there is no reaction from Frontiers.

Sometimes, just a simple answer from devs would do a magic.

 

[SoapyIllusion]

To me the biggest issue today with online communities, is the need to be overly verbose. That can lead to conflict. Conflict is bad. However, (keeping things on topic) I believe feedback is important. Feedback leads to growth. Sometimes that feedback comes in the form of criticism. Without feedback (yes even criticism) no one one would ever grow, not even Frontier. Its important to keep that criticism grounded, defined and well you being blunt, useful. Somethings people are asking for are incredibly subjective. Some of those subjective items are a bit hard to fit into a efficient roadmap, or may fall out of scope. So in short, yeah provide feedback, help make the game a better place for all. Just keep it classy, and dont get mad, or claim you're being ripped off when you find out what you specifically asked for hasn't be added yet. And may never be added.

 

[TheQuixote]

No, read the post above. TheQuixote is right.

Thanks.

I probably should add that it's also very important to be respectful and constructive with criticism. I assume most of the criticism of criticism is directed towards things that might be more inflammatory in tone. While that type of criticism can still contain very valid points it really takes a person with good self discipline wade through it and not take it personally.

 

[sixfootgeek]

I agree 100% that issues with the game and or wishes of players to add certain content is always going to be needed and even expected. Frontier has made, in my eyes, some odd choices with the release of extra content. I'm not a business major, nor do I own a software business, so I chalk up those decisions to overall company growth and sustaining PC as long as possible. There are some items/features in the game people may want and feel like Frontier is ignoring them when those things are not added to the game. A change to the game that seems to us as being simple to make, make not actually be that way. It's very easy to introduce game breaking bugs when you make changes to any type of software. They also have to look at their manpower and decided how much money to put toward what features and scenery. It's a daunting task, to say the least. I think if everyone understood that, then maybe there would be less "complaining" overall. Some people just need to understand where the responsibility of Frontier ends as a game developer. Ultimately they can do whatever they want with the game and if enough customers don't agree with those choices then they could lose future revenue. I do like the way they release the DLC packs. We find out what each pack is a week or so before we get them. Imagine finding out 6 months before and having to wait!

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

Planet coaster is already beyond my wildest dreams of what I expected. I was worried I would never even get a new theme park sim. Anything extra to me is just icing on a very delicious cake. That doesn't mean I don't see the opportunity for improvement of course, but for me it fits my needs. I actually find the management hard. As someone who has been playing such games for almost 20 years. However I do tend to get sick of things if they are too hard and never play again, so for me it's just the right balance. ( 50 percent sandbox, 50 percent management player)

 

[Aaronroberts12567]

Can I just point out that though a lot of people (myself included) dislike Atari for what they've done with RCTW. Atari did not charge for their halloween content, their pyramid content (I guess their version of the Adventure Pack) or even their newest content that looks like it could potentially be a bootleg studios pack?

I've said in another post, I don't really feel enthusiastic about the game anymore, the paid DLC will be the same thing we've seen in the past. One flat ride, maybe a coaster, and the same tracked ride with a brand new car, along with some theme nobody really cares about that probably should have been in the game at start, and yeah maybe some of those small pieces will help out with things people have made previously, but people will still be asking for smoother coasters (myself included because I'm good at making coasters, not so much buildings) and adjustable track pieces such as the bottom of the boomerang lift hill, the log flume splash down, cascade, eurofighter lift hill etc, and also asking for an asian theme, it pains me watching youtubers use thousands of pieces on one roof, seriously if you're watching a youtuber as a developer and seeing somebody use that amount of objects, or using the backside of a window to make a wall, then I think you need to be thinking of a way that people can not do that.

Don't get me wrong, I love Frontier for the magic and character they've put into the game, if this new DLC is an asian pack, I'll probably still end up buying it, but I don't think its something we should be paying for, when I read through that artbook PDF, right at the end "and this is only the beginning" I was expecting so much more and its a little sad that its taken a year to get security guards in, and almost 2 years to bring in recolorable staff outfits, I love frontier but I have felt cheated twice, once with the Christmas pack when we were asked to vote for a ride to be included, which means either all 4 of those were made so that they could be included in the pack, or it means that they started work after the vote and rides don't actually take as long to code as we thought. The second time I felt that way is when the studios pack was released, and wondered why we have western animatronics, fairytale animatronics, and pirate animatronics, everything just feels like something little to add on to whatever we already have.

Am I wrong for feeling this way? genuine question.

 

[mr.sugar]

Can I just point out that though a lot of people (myself included) dislike Atari for what they've done with RCTW. Atari did not charge for their halloween content, their pyramid content (I guess their version of the Adventure Pack) or even their newest content that looks like it could potentially be a bootleg studios pack?

I've said in another post, I don't really feel enthusiastic about the game anymore, the paid DLC will be the same thing we've seen in the past. One flat ride, maybe a coaster, and the same tracked ride with a brand new car, along with some theme nobody really cares about that probably should have been in the game at start, and yeah maybe some of those small pieces will help out with things people have made previously, but people will still be asking for smoother coasters (myself included because I'm good at making coasters, not so much buildings) and adjustable track pieces such as the bottom of the boomerang lift hill, the log flume splash down, cascade, eurofighter lift hill etc, and also asking for an asian theme, it pains me watching youtubers use thousands of pieces on one roof, seriously if you're watching a youtuber as a developer and seeing somebody use that amount of objects, or using the backside of a window to make a wall, then I think you need to be thinking of a way that people can not do that.

Don't get me wrong, I love Frontier for the magic and character they've put into the game, if this new DLC is an asian pack, I'll probably still end up buying it, but I don't think its something we should be paying for, when I read through that artbook PDF, right at the end "and this is only the beginning" I was expecting so much more and its a little sad that its taken a year to get security guards in, and almost 2 years to bring in recolorable staff outfits, I love frontier but I have felt cheated twice, once with the Christmas pack when we were asked to vote for a ride to be included, which means either all 4 of those were made so that they could be included in the pack, or it means that they started work after the vote and rides don't actually take as long to code as we thought. The second time I felt that way is when the studios pack was released, and wondered why we have western animatronics, fairytale animatronics, and pirate animatronics, everything just feels like something little to add on to whatever we already have.

Am I wrong for feeling this way? genuine question.

I´m not a big fan of paid DLCs either, especially since I think PC could offer at least a bit more in the base game in some regards (especially trees,plants etc.), but the only reason Atari didn´t charge anything extra for RCTW is that the game failed very bad and they simply tried to save the day with a free content.

What I miss about the DLCs is the hype I used to get when bigger DLC was announced. With these DLCs, I just don´t get that excited. DLCs/expansion used to be announced in advance and I remember how I was searching for every new article, screenshot or video from the upcoming expansion. And not mentioning expansion was usually a game changer, while here it is a content pack only.

Still remember how hyped I was about Soaked for RCT3

 

[Crowdpleaser]

...it pains me watching youtubers use thousands of pieces on one roof, seriously if you're watching a youtuber as a developer and seeing somebody use that amount of objects, or using the backside of a window to make a wall, then I think you need to be thinking of a way that people can not do that...

Hmmm i think i misunderstand you, but i for one love that the Developers DIDN'T limit creativity. I celebrate the game for that. If i want to make a building with a stupid amount of Pieces, i want to be able to do that. It is ME that has to live with the consequences of low Framerate then.

 

[Aaronroberts12567]

Hmmm i think i misunderstand you, but i for one love that the Developers DIDN'T limit creativity. I celebrate the game for that. If i want to make a
building with a stupid amount of Pieces, i want to be able to do that. It is ME that has to live with the consequences of low Framerate then.

What I meant is that, if I was a developer and watching somebody like Rudi, use the back of windows to make walls in his Arabian area in Camel Kingdom, then I would stop and think "We should add a wall set into the game with that texture, or similar" I think Freethebear and Adfo did this in their Taliko series aswell. Another example is when Silv made Grizzly Valley, and used many red wooden pieces for his curved asian roofs, at that point which was still in alpha, I'd be like "Ok, lets add asian themeing to the game" we're almost at the 2 year mark since release, and there seem to be a lot of missed opportunities with certain things

 

[Crowdpleaser]

What I meant is that, if I was a developer and watching somebody like Rudi, use the back of windows to make walls in his Arabian area in Camel Kingdom, then I would stop and think "We should add a wall set into the game with that texture, or similar" I think Freethebear and Adfo did this in their Taliko series aswell. Another example is when Silv made Grizzly Valley, and used many red wooden pieces for his curved asian roofs, at that point which was still in alpha, I'd be like "Ok, lets add asian themeing to the game" we're almost at the 2 year mark since release, and there seem to be a lot of missed opportunities with certain things

Ah ok, yes i get what you mean, but one has to be realistic. It is a bit too much to ask to include every possible theme ever that existed. People come up with new stuff every day, inventing themes that are not in the game.

That being said, yes, i would love to see way more general purpose stuff, but building walls or other things out of different materials won't go away. There will always be inventive people creating things that are technically not in the Game.

 

[Aaronroberts12567]

Ah ok, yes i get what you mean, but one has to be realistic. It is a bit too much to ask to include every possible theme ever that existed. People come up with new stuff every day, inventing themes that are not in the game.

That being said, yes, i would love to see way more general purpose stuff, but building walls or other things out of different materials won't go away. There will always be inventive people creating things that are technically not in the Game.

But taking into account that Frontier worked on a game like this previously, and included the following sets:
-"Brick Walls" industrial looking stuff
-Carribean Adventure walls
-Corral Ranch Walls (farm / ranch)
-Green house looking walls (hydroponic)
-Arabian walls (Marble sultan palace walls)
-2 spooky wall sets (spooky stone castle, spooky wooden house)
-Steel building walls (looks like sci fi, so the game has 2 sci-fi)
-More sultan's Palace walls

Like, I know we shouldn't compare to previous games, because Planet Coaster isn't a sequal to RCT (and thats all without the expansions) but, isn't it fair to ask for these sorts of things considering frontier also worked on that game?

 

[Crowdpleaser]

But taking into account that Frontier worked on a game like this previously, and included the following sets:
-"Brick Walls" industrial looking stuff
-Carribean Adventure walls
-Corral Ranch Walls (farm / ranch)
-Green house looking walls (hydroponic)
-Arabian walls (Marble sultan palace walls)
-2 spooky wall sets (spooky stone castle, spooky wooden house)
-Steel building walls (looks like sci fi, so the game has 2 sci-fi)
-More sultan's Palace walls

Like, I know we shouldn't compare to previous games, because Planet Coaster isn't a sequal to RCT (and thats all without the expansions) but, isn't it fair to ask for these sorts of things considering frontier also worked on that game?

Yes, that is fair, and i am all for completing existing sets Maybe they will do that one day Maybe we will one day even get more Animal Animatrionics (Horses and such for Western for example)

 

[Ramm]

Like, I know we shouldn't compare to previous games, because Planet Coaster isn't a sequal to RCT (and thats all without the expansions) but, isn't it fair to ask for these sorts of things considering frontier also worked on that game?

This is mostly why people struggle with what Frontier is doing now. They did it all before, almost 15 years ago. They did it, they've proven they were capable. But suddenly they forgot how to do it.

 

[mr.sugar]

Well, to what should PC compared to if not to RCT 1-3, right?

 

[Ramm]

Well, to what should PC compared to if not to RCT 1-3, right?

Exactly.

Alot of people are not really happy about alot of features because they made RCT3 15 years ago.

All they had to do was remake that game, but with HD graphics and free-form building.

Thats what you'd expect from the same studio that set the industry standard 15 years ago and thats what everyone was expecting on the first announcements of Planet Coaster.

So it's weird some people act shocked when they see critcism on this forum because considering this most criticism is pretty valid.

 

[breezerHOG1]

Like, I know we shouldn't compare to previous games, because Planet Coaster isn't a sequal to RCT but, isn't it fair to ask for these sorts of things considering frontier also worked on that game?

Yes it is fair to compare PlanCo to RCT3, because they have more things in common than any other game, including several members of the devteam. I dont get how people "define" a sequel. Super Mario Bros 2 was not originally a Mario game, it was not made by Nintendo it was a different game that got altered and renamed Super Mario 2, even though there had been a different version of Mario 2 which was only released in Japan (or in later console ports). But people dont argue that Mario 2 is not the real Mario 2, its still a mario game

Now, RCTWorld is NOT a true sequel to RCT3... RCTWorld is nothing like RCT3.... but Planet Coaster is very similar to RCT3. The developers for RCT3 did not work on RCTWorld... the engine for Planet Coaster is named Cobra after the original engine Frontier made for RCT3. We also know that Chris Sawyer creator of RCT1/2/Classic helped with RCT3 but not RCTWorld, and the head of Frontier is very connected with all the top players in the industry. We also know that Atari is a crapshoot company that sucks at making games but thrives at milking Titles through marketting schemes.

Frontier made other games in the past decade, such as Thrillville, Disneys Kinectimals, Coaster Ride, Zoo Tycoon, and Jurassic World which we all know are NOT sequels to RCT3. Also there are no other good theme park games on the market, TPS doesnt count, even Parkitect is not the same... Planet Coaster is not a sequel to NoLimits... but it certainly has many similarities to RCT3 such as piece by piece walls instead of more modern click+drag wall features. So the moral of the story is that, yes Planet Coaster is in fact a sequel to RCT3 it just has a slight name change, the only big change is not having a map wide grid for terrain tools

Movies do stuff like this too, like Jason Bourne instead of Bourne 4, all the various batmans, halloweens, friday13s, etc etc, or how the Hobbit wasnt really 3 books... its just all about money

And then of course you also have to consider . . . how many other games have something ilke this here? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1166030341 . . . . RCT is a part of this game!

 

[Ramm]

[/URL]https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1166030341 . . . . RCT is a part of this game!

not to go too offtopic but thats a fine collection, I love the youtube vid

 

[Citytrader]

Yes it is fair to compare PlanCo to RCT3, because they have more things in common than any other game, including several members of the devteam. I dont get how people "define" a sequel. Super Mario Bros 2 was not originally a Mario game, it was not made by Nintendo it was a different game that got altered and renamed Super Mario 2, even though there had been a different version of Mario 2 which was only released in Japan (or in later console ports). But people dont argue that Mario 2 is not the real Mario 2, its still a mario game

Now, RCTWorld is NOT a true sequel to RCT3... RCTWorld is nothing like RCT3.... but Planet Coaster is very similar to RCT3. The developers for RCT3 did not work on RCTWorld... the engine for Planet Coaster is named Cobra after the original engine Frontier made for RCT3. We also know that Chris Sawyer creator of RCT1/2/Classic helped with RCT3 but not RCTWorld, and the head of Frontier is very connected with all the top players in the industry. We also know that Atari is a crapshoot company that sucks at making games but thrives at milking Titles through marketting schemes.

Frontier made other games in the past decade, such as Thrillville, Disneys Kinectimals, Coaster Ride, Zoo Tycoon, and Jurassic World which we all know are NOT sequels to RCT3. Also there are no other good theme park games on the market, TPS doesnt count, even Parkitect is not the same... Planet Coaster is not a sequel to NoLimits... but it certainly has many similarities to RCT3 such as piece by piece walls instead of more modern click+drag wall features. So the moral of the story is that, yes Planet Coaster is in fact a sequel to RCT3 it just has a slight name change, the only big change is not having a map wide grid for terrain tools

Movies do stuff like this too, like Jason Bourne instead of Bourne 4, all the various batmans, halloweens, friday13s, etc etc, or how the Hobbit wasnt really 3 books... its just all about money

And then of course you also have to consider . . . how many other games have something ilke this here? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1166030341 . . . . RCT is a part of this game!

Emotionally, I agree with you and your thinking. PC is the spiritual successor to RCT3. Yes, the same company created both titles, using the same engine.

However, RCT is the intellectual property of Atari, and is protected by dozens of laws, trademarks, intellectual properties statutes, etc. That is why PC has been completely rebuilt from the ground up, so that Atari (who are litigation happy) have no reason on the planet (pun intended) to sue Frontier for infringement.

Now, having said that, I am at a bit of a loss as to why Frontier has decided to carry on the way they have regarding this game except that it really must take a while to create assets for the thing, and not as many people work on it as we believe. Four or five people can not do the work of 30, for instance. They have told us that rides take forever and a day to complete.

So why don't they open up the game to the community, and let us create for ourselves? Simple economics. As long as they make money from milking the cow, why shoot it? If they can release what some here believe are basic features in updates, and make expansions that sell, they are content. String the public along. Think of the mule and the carrot on a stick. Do not most of us continue to follow that carrot? And we will continue to follow the carrot until they feel they have done what they can to make money, at which point, they announce PC2, or they allow UGC.

Simple business principals here, guys.

 

[Ramm]

Emotionally, I agree with you and your thinking. PC is the spiritual successor to RCT3. Yes, the same company created both titles, using the same engine.

However, RCT is the intellectual property of Atari, and is protected by dozens of laws, trademarks, intellectual properties statutes, etc. That is why PC has been completely rebuilt from the ground up, so that Atari (who are litigation happy) have no reason on the planet (pun intended) to sue Frontier for infringement.

Now, having said that, I am at a bit of a loss as to why Frontier has decided to carry on the way they have regarding this game except that it really must take a while to create assets for the thing, and not as many people work on it as we believe. Four or five people can not do the work of 30, for instance. They have told us that rides take forever and a day to complete.

So why don't they open up the game to the community, and let us create for ourselves? Simple economics. As long as they make money from milking the cow, why shoot it? If they can release what some here believe are basic features in updates, and make expansions that sell, they are content. String the public along. Think of the mule and the carrot on a stick. Do not most of us continue to follow that carrot? And we will continue to follow the carrot until they feel they have done what they can to make money, at which point, they announce PC2, or they allow UGC.

Simple business principals here, guys.

I'm guessing someone within Frontier who is higher up doesn't see this and is afraid they can't milk addition building sets when they actually open the game up and give freedom. Which is simply not true. If they are actually a skilled company they should always be able to make better stuff than the community. And if someone from the community makes something better well then they deserve to be hired by Frontier.

Just take Cities Skylines for example. A game sold for very cheap without intrusive DRM (which btw doesn't even work but they keep it anyway for the customers) and with modding right from the start. And look how succesful it is. The game offers so much freedom, hell for me personally the game actually has so much possibilities it makes your head spin. For a tycoon/building/management game that's exactly how it's supposed to be done. No hand holding or limiting your freedom, just giving you the means to do whatever you want with your purchased copy of the game.