In game travel - the critical flaw?

[Babellon]

This thread has been interesting. I personally don't agree with the ideas presented here but never the less it doesn't matter what any of us players on these forums think. if you really feel that you have a good suggestion why don't you put it on suggestion forums thread and leave it there? It's up to the developers whether that is implemented regardless of the opinions of myself or any other persons reading and responding to this thread. You don't have to convince us, you have to convince them.

For me personally while I did for some time find various mechanics in this game frustrating it had more to do with my lack of understanding than any flaw in those mechanics, now that i understand the reasoning behind it more I find most of it to be sensible and functional to the design of the game. What would wormholes, slip streams, jump gates etc do that our current system doesn't aside from the extended range? either way you'd still be waiting on a loading screen disguised as something else. what about this proposal would make traveling or loading into a system faster? extended range simply for the sake of expedient bypass of large portions of the map doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. In what ways could that system be exploited to the disadvantage of other players? What are the downsides to this idea?
As a trader I want to be sure that if I escape an attack that one cannot simply jump into a gate and meet me on the other side while I'm jumping away to simply attack me again. How would this effect open space? what advantages would this lend to those who want to take advantage of players? which is something that is already a problem for many.
How does this idea effect the overarching dynamics of the galaxy politic? can NPC pilots also use these gates? how does that effect trade routes, commodities, mining markets? there is a lot to consider in making a sweeping change to how travel is done in any game. How does this form of travel change effect piracy and the attacks by NPCs on players carrying cargo? How is exploration effected by this change? bypassing huge sectors of the galaxy leaves large areas untouched, or opens up areas that have yet to be mapped and how quickly will the playerbase at large become bored and feel they've 'seen it all' if everything is made easier to reach?

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

What would wormholes, slip streams, jump gates etc do that our current system doesn't aside from the extended range? either way you'd still be waiting on a loading screen disguised as something else. what about this proposal would make traveling or loading into a system faster? extended range simply for the sake of expedient bypass of large portions of the map doesn't really seem like a good idea to me.

If you're referring to my suggestion of a slipstream, then part of the reasoning behind it is to encourage more of the map to be travelled to and seen, as it would allow you to target any body in a remote system as your exit point. Most players will commonly avoid travelling to those points that require half an hour and more of simply staring at a wallpaper to reach. There is a built in restriction though, so you can't pop to every remote body in a system by jumping out and targeting it.

Really though, I was thinking ahead to EVA, and trying to find a way for the game to make room for EVA play, without exactly resorting to fast travel between systems. Targeting locations within a system as an exit point is a feature that players will invariably be split on, so it doesn't have to be a necessary part of the slipstream idea.

 

[Babellon]

While opening up more of the map seems like a good idea on paper I would point out that the shear vastness of the galactic map and its as yet not fully discovered status is part of the motivation for exploration. Knowing that there is so much of the galaxy yet to be touched by others is a key factor to my gameplay as I'm sure it is for others as well. I have played for a little while now, and I have hardly flown out 1k ly from the bubble. I look forward to those long range trips one day but what would be the motivation if by the time I got there everyone else had already covered the map? equally, what would be the motivation to explore if all I had to do was get into a gate and go to colonia, or sagA or any other distant location beyond my current travel range capacity and desire? It is my curiosity which drives me to play, fly, explore if that curiosity is satisfied swiftly with just a few easy jumps I can say safely I would lose interest quickly. I currently fly a 34ly Diamondback explorer and do mapping in grid patterns of star sectors. I do that because I know there is still so much to find that others have not, which is the thrill for me.

If you're referring to my suggestion of a slipstream, then part of the reasoning behind it is to encourage more of the map to be travelled to and seen, as it would allow you to target any body in a remote system as your exit point. Most players will commonly avoid travelling to those points that require half an hour and more of simply staring at a wallpaper to reach. There is a built in restriction though, so you can't pop to every remote body in a system by jumping out and targeting it.

Really though, I was thinking ahead to EVA, and trying to find a way for the game to make room for EVA play, without exactly resorting to fast travel between systems. Targeting locations within a system as an exit point is a feature that players will invariably be split on, so it doesn't have to be a necessary part of the slipstream idea.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

While opening up more of the map seems like a good idea on paper I would point out that the shear vastness of the galactic map and its as yet not fully discovered status is part of the motivation for exploration. Knowing that there is so much of the galaxy yet to be touched by others is a key factor to my gameplay as I'm sure it is for others as well. I have played for a little while now, and I have hardly flown out 1k ly from the bubble. I look forward to those long range trips one day but what would be the motivation if by the time I got there everyone else had already covered the map? equally, what would be the motivation to explore if all I had to do was get into a gate and go to colonia, or sagA or any other distant location beyond my current travel range capacity and desire? It is my curiosity which drives me to play, fly, explore if that curiosity is satisfied swiftly with just a few easy jumps I can say safely I would lose interest quickly. I currently fly a 34ly Diamondback explorer and do mapping in grid patterns of star sectors. I do that because I know there is still so much to find that others have not, which is the thrill for me.

I wouldn't support the idea of gates or wormholes outside the bubble, primarily for preserving the significance of exploration.

Thinking on what you said though, I would probably introduce a limitation as well on how far from the primary star you could target an exit location for your slipstream, which would be based on some FSD stat calculation to give an X light seconds radius value. The point is that you'd have to specifically gear and possibly engineer your ship for slipstream use, which relies heavily on integrity, making it far less useful for hyperspace jumps, therefore making it specific to slipstreaming, which is mostly relevant for trade and exploration.

So, if the calculation allows you say a 50k light second radius, you'd have to target a location within that. So if you wanted to reach a target 200k light seconds away from the primary star, you could get a slight headstart, provided there was another targetable location close to 50k light seconds away from the primary star, and roughly between the star and the target destination.

Otherwise, as I said, it could be scrapped entirely, and only have the primary, or maybe other stars of a system as possible exit points.

 

[Captain Willard]

Worm holes never going to happen in the bubble.
It defeats the whole interdict premise.
But HEY. Dream on. The teleport my ship is a dead end.
The game is built on FLYING a ship.

 

[Schmack]

Many people play this game as an immersive experience that involves all of the little things needed to do to pilot a space ship from a station to another system. Since we are all playing in the same sandbox, of sorts, we all have to play by the same basic rules. Instant travel to places makes no sense unless you're just looking for CQC type entertainment. I too get damn tired of watching the countdown to drop from SC but I rarely get tired of jumping multiple systems because that's part of the feel of the game, the size of the sandbox. In reality we could be at the far ends of the game galaxy as fast as an instance could load (see multicrew for example) but then there's simply no size to the game when that happens, no feeling of "over there" or "way the hell over there". It takes person A 2 weeks to get to a point, it takes person B 2 weeks to get to a point, all else being equal. It cannot take person A 2 weeks but person B has instantaneous travel.

I don't want worm holes unless it's part of the development of the game that enables new content. I am against repetitive acts simply for the same repetitive goal but I don't see space travel using jumps as "same goal". Each time I jump I have a different reason.

 

[Schmack]

This thread has been interesting. I personally don't agree with the ideas presented here but never the less it doesn't matter what any of us players on these forums think. if you really feel that you have a good suggestion why don't you put it on suggestion forums thread and leave it there? It's up to the developers whether that is implemented regardless of the opinions of myself or any other persons reading and responding to this thread. You don't have to convince us, you have to convince them.

For me personally while I did for some time find various mechanics in this game frustrating it had more to do with my lack of understanding than any flaw in those mechanics, now that i understand the reasoning behind it more I find most of it to be sensible and functional to the design of the game. What would wormholes, slip streams, jump gates etc do that our current system doesn't aside from the extended range? either way you'd still be waiting on a loading screen disguised as something else. what about this proposal would make traveling or loading into a system faster? extended range simply for the sake of expedient bypass of large portions of the map doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. In what ways could that system be exploited to the disadvantage of other players? What are the downsides to this idea?
As a trader I want to be sure that if I escape an attack that one cannot simply jump into a gate and meet me on the other side while I'm jumping away to simply attack me again. How would this effect open space? what advantages would this lend to those who want to take advantage of players? which is something that is already a problem for many.
How does this idea effect the overarching dynamics of the galaxy politic? can NPC pilots also use these gates? how does that effect trade routes, commodities, mining markets? there is a lot to consider in making a sweeping change to how travel is done in any game. How does this form of travel change effect piracy and the attacks by NPCs on players carrying cargo? How is exploration effected by this change? bypassing huge sectors of the galaxy leaves large areas untouched, or opens up areas that have yet to be mapped and how quickly will the playerbase at large become bored and feel they've 'seen it all' if everything is made easier to reach?

I agree with most of what you said however I would add that, given the choice, most people have decided to engineer their FSDs for jump range increases. There's the neutron highway to Colonia, and if you want slower travel you can have it. That said, giving me the option to bypass my game isn't a great idea, as I will likely take it when I am bored. It's the same as putting a pecan pie with vanilla ice cream in my refrigerator. I don't want to eat it, it's not part of my diet, but I would probably feel compelled to.

 

[Calebe]

It is the sense of scale that amazes me. The speed of light is slow motion in this galaxy. It drives home the point of truly how massive this galaxy actually is. I can jump about 30 light years or a bit more in my Python, and that is nothing, it barely moves you on the galaxy map. If you could jump 100 light years it would be the same, you would barely move on the galaxy map. So what does the op want? Hit a button and jump 1500 light years? Well people have been out over 20,000 light years so at 1500 per jump you still hit the jump button about 14 times. Face it, you either travel in a game about space ships flying to massively distance points, or your in an arcade, press button and 1 miles or 30,000 light years takes the same amount of time. It takes the magic away. You say it is boring, I say it shows and should amaze all of us just how truly massive the game galaxy is, and look into the night sky and realize, that this game is mirrored on all you can see and what you can't. That those points of light may have taken over 20,000 years when the light was cast to reach us, and you want to get there in in less then a minute. What game play fun is that? Automate it. Press a button 20,000 light years, auto pilot is station, auto pilot to land. You won't have to lift a finger. Of course your not playing a game either.

Calebe

 

[Tikanderoga]

Of course your not playing a game either.

Because watching the screen go woooooosh for 90 minutes while flying to Hutton is playing the game?

 

[Captain Willard]

Because watching the screen go woooooosh for 90 minutes while flying to Hutton is playing the game?

Please show us the vids of ED employees standing behind you with bats if you dinna complete the run.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Please show us the vids of ED employees standing behind you with bats if you dinna complete the run.

The discussion in general is on how to improve travel mechanics. If the answer to any perceived issue is "you don't have to do it", then the answer to any grievance about the game may as well be "you don't have to play it", which would negate the point of any suggestions or discussions about improvements to begin with.

Let's say we didn't want to shorten the travel time, but wanted to make the travel experience more engaging than watching grass grow, or staring at a bespeckled wallpaper for 90 minutes. Would you oppose that? Let's say we wanted to proportionally reduce the travel time, dependent on a skill-based activity with a high risk factor, and how long you could maintain the activity. Would you oppose that?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The discussion in general is on how to improve travel mechanics. If the answer to any perceived issue is "you don't have to do it", then the answer to any grievance about the game may as well be "you don't have to play it", which would negate the point of any suggestions or discussions about improvements to begin with.

Let's say we didn't want to shorten the travel time, but wanted to make the travel experience more engaging than watching grass grow, or staring at a bespeckled wallpaper for 90 minutes. Would you oppose that? Let's say we wanted to proportionally reduce the travel time, dependent on a skill-based activity with a high risk factor, and how long you could maintain the activity. Would you oppose that?

Improve the travel mechanics you say?
Okay:

1. Reduce jump ranges. Nothing above 50 LY.
2. Increase the effect of gravity wells so that flying around a system requires thought and planning rather than simply flying in a straight line.
3. Allow engineering mods to affect SC speed, with penalties on mass and fuel usage.
4. Make fuel costs higher so they become a meaningful expense (give fuel scoops weight too, so they're not free.

In short, make getting around more of a challenge. People will stop moaning about how long it takes to cross the Bubble if it's going to cost them a million credits to do it

 

[Tikanderoga]

Please show us the vids of ED employees standing behind you with bats if you dinna complete the run.

No one is standing behind me - but me firing up a game means I'd like to play it, not fire it up and let it run for 90 minutes or go and watch a movie because "I'm playing the game"

Here are some ideas:

• Use planetary bodies to be able to slingshot yourself at faster speed, above the current limit.
• Perform a microjump to another stellar body in the system (stars only) and then SC to where you want to go.

For long distance travel:
Use wormholes with a certain factor of random. Have it like a mini-game or tunnels like in Endgame of Star Trek Voyager. Wormholes would be a giant network that would have say 1000 exit points in the galaxy. So going left, left, right and left might land you near Colonia, but only if you take a specific worm hole from say near Betelgeuse. If you use a wormhole near beagle point, to get to Colonia, you might have to go straight, left, straight, right, left and straight for the next 20 intersections.
There you go! 1000 exit points to map out, but with a consistency. So every person taking the same hole, using the same turns, would end up at the same place.

"Fast travel" and a mini game to play and not jump/honk/scoop for 3 hours to get to Colonia. If you prefer the classic way - you can still do that.

 

[Stealthie]

Improve the travel mechanics you say?
Okay:

1. Reduce jump ranges. Nothing above 50 LY.
2. Increase the effect of gravity wells so that flying around a system requires thought and planning rather than simply flying in a straight line.
3. Allow engineering mods to affect SC speed, with penalties on mass and fuel usage.
4. Make fuel costs higher so they become a meaningful expense (give fuel scoops weight too, so they're not free.

In short, make getting around more of a challenge. People will stop moaning about how long it takes to cross the Bubble if it's going to cost them a million credits to do it

Sounds good to me.

How about giving the orrery a purpose by making it useful for plotting optimal courses to your intended destination?

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Improve the travel mechanics you say?
Okay:

1. Reduce jump ranges. Nothing above 50 LY.
2. Increase the effect of gravity wells so that flying around a system requires thought and planning rather than simply flying in a straight line.
3. Allow engineering mods to affect SC speed, with penalties on mass and fuel usage.
4. Make fuel costs higher so they become a meaningful expense (give fuel scoops weight too, so they're not free.

In short, make getting around more of a challenge. People will stop moaning about how long it takes to cross the Bubble if it's going to cost them a million credits to do it

Interesting take. If I understand correctly, it puts a skill requirement on route plotting, and makes choices important by increasing fuel costs. Engineering for faster SC speed would also be a welcome addition, and I guess that would be offset by the 50ly jump range limit. Unless in item 2 you were referring specifically to SC travel, and not hyperspace jumps? Not sure.

A couple of issues I have is that firstly, it doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the travel loop itself once the route plotting part is done, except for potentially less time spent in SC. Secondly, I don't really like the idea of placing arbitrary limits like X light years, unless there's something convincing about that hard limit.

I really like the idea of a skill requirement for jump route plotting though, particularly if the auto plotter algorithm is not going to be as efficient as a skilled plotter, and so you can maximise your range if you apply the knowledge.

Still, I'm quite partial to having a skill based travel loop with a significant risk factor that increases over time, like when you're playing Tetris and the speed of incoming blocks increases gradually, making them more difficult to place effectively, except that in Elite it'd be something like navigating a sub-section of warp space, or a wormhole if you like, where you need to follow a particular wayward line. The closer you are to the line, the higher the stability, but the greater the effect on your ship's temperature. The further you drift from it, the lower your ship's temperature drops, but the reduced stability causes your hull integrity to be compromised. As time goes on, the line becomes more difficult to follow as its directions change with increasing speed, and the stable area around it shrinks, reducing the "sweet spot" you aim for.

The longer you're able to remain in the wormhole without your ship blowing up, the further you can travel in one jump. You can exit the wormhole at any point by veering off, and it will dump you as far as you've travelled (to the nearest system), but that will also incur some damage to your hull. If you stay in the wormhole long enough to reach your plotted destination, you will see an exit hole/gate come up ahead, and you need to veer off in time to go through it, which of course will be more difficult the further you go. Exiting successfully through the gate will not incur further hull damage. Once you know the relative "seconds in wormhole" to "light years travelled" ratio, you can of course set a more realistic destination.

I'd actually want all of these as options. The risky desperate way, and the carefully plotted maximised way, as well as the lazy auto-plotted route. The risky way has the greatest potential to get you further in less time with less fuel, but of course with the added risks. The carefully plotted way will get you very far, particularly if you add in some way to use the gravity wells to push you further, and the auto-plotted route is good for new players, or the generally lazy, though your range will be fairly limited, and your fuel consumption very high.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

3. Allow engineering mods to affect SC speed, with penalties on mass and fuel usage.

I've posted a similar suggestion before, but instead of Engineering I'd propose an SC variant of Jumponium. Something you inject into the SC part of your FSD which would increase acceleration rate, with the downside of increased heat, turbulence and engine damage. That turbulence is important: it means you have to be at the stick while the effect lasts (think roughly the effect of a neutron scoop). Three grades of increase which affect the rate of increased acceleration, turbulence, heat etc. Grade 3 (the highest) should be a white-knuckle ride with your ship screaming about heat levels. As to how long the effect lasts - that can be worked out later.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

A couple of issues I have is that firstly, it doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the travel loop itself once the route plotting part is done, except for potentially less time spent in SC. Secondly, I don't really like the idea of placing arbitrary limits like X light years, unless there's something convincing about that hard limit.

It's far too late for it now, and it would have gone poorly with exploration, but I think my favourite hyperspace implementation is still the original Elite one, with a 7 LY hard limit on both jump range and fuel tank size. (Inter-star distances are slightly different in Elite Dangerous, so it would probably be more like 10 LY now)

If every ship has the same hyperspace range, you actually have a jump network. You can have bits like the top-left corner of Galaxy 2 in the original Elite - http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:StarChart-Galaxy-001.png - which are only attached to the rest of the systems by a narrow corridor (they happened to all be dangerous systems, too!) - which create natural bottlenecks, shared experiences, decisions about whether to take the short dangerous route or the long way round, etc. Travelling is an experience in itself, if you have to refuel either by scooping or docking in every system (in the original, you didn't appear near the star, so scooping still required facing the system's enemies)

In Elite Dangerous with modern jump ranges you have to be right out on the galactic rim before you start getting that sort of thing - and even then, with jump ranges varying so much between ships, and jump synthesis allowing for further doubling, it's still not really the same, and still a very individual experience.



I think this is actually the problem Elite Dangerous has with travel - it's far too easy and convenient, so you can basically go from A to B without anything happening in the middle, pretty much guaranteed. While, yes, travelling through space "is the game", the way Elite Dangerous is designed (trivial fuel scooping, high jump ranges) means that in practice the only difference between travelling 30 LY and 300 LY is how often you press "J" along the way and how long it takes. Whereas in the original Elite, travelling to the next system, and travelling up into the top-left of Galaxy 1 were very different experiences.


But, it's far too late now to make travel a game in itself - it was far too late in the 1.0 release - so Frontier's solution has been to increase jump ranges so much that the bubble is basically flat. So because nothing ever happens while travelling, we keep getting people asking "can I skip that bit". And, well, within the bubble, why not? There are very few bits of gameplay where the extra travel distance still matters (competing for high rank at trade CGs is the only one I can think of)

 

[Stigbob]

True, that has improved.

But see, the 'go once, gain access from range' thing has precedence. And it is good

Or in other words we already have really easy access to that so no need.

 

[VR Golgot]

Darling, just because someone isn't agreeing with you, doesn't mean their criticism isn't constructive. "It's not happening, and here's why", is as much constructive criticism as helping you to improve the idea is. I'm not telling you why I think it's a bad idea, I'm telling you why FDEV won't implement it. They won't even give it a second look. I'm trying to save you time by explaining why it's never going to happen. There's nothing subjective about this. The rules of the game are very simple - space is big, and part of the game is getting around in that big space. Yes, even the bubble is big, so no, making it smaller is simply not going to happen. Making space smaller in a game where space is intended to be big is internally inconsistent, no matter how much you deny it.

Deeply subjective? The only real qualification you've given for any of this is "I don't like doing 20 jumps in my Anaconda!" You've given us nothing but your personal problems to justify this idea. You have NOT told us why the game needs it, you've only told us why you personally want it. That's the very definition of subjective.

Sweetheart, your reasoning to date has been riddled with flaws, and yet you slam it down like a fait accompli. You can repeat these two premises all you like:

• "they're always going to opt for what's the most realistic, not what's most 'fun'"
• "space is big...making it smaller is simply not going to happen"

But they are both demonstrably undercut by the game itself:

Science-lite aspects of convenience & distance compression in the game include:

• We travel way above the speed of light. (Are you really going to argue for Alcubierre drives as solid science?)
• We jump between stars through the putative Witch Space.
• Pilots are transported instantaneously to stations at the point of ship destruction
• Telepresence & chat arrive instantaneously regardless of range.
• Engineers work their craft at any distance once you've pinned a blueprint.

Etc etc.

My pitch is perfectly in line with the above. To approach a constructive conversation you'd have to stop trying to wave it away on flawed grounds and actually engage with its details.

(I'd certainly agree that it's a question of degree. And personally I like a lot of the sci-underpinnings, such as the ole centripetal acceleration spinning station technique that you mention. You're just drawing your line in the sand to high up the beach.)

 

[VR Golgot]

Worm holes never going to happen in the bubble.
It defeats the whole interdict premise.
But HEY. Dream on. The teleport my ship is a dead end.
The game is built on FLYING a ship.

The pitch I'm slinging out features:

• Jump gates, focusing communities into busy hubs, hence alternate pirating & security risks and possibilites
• Piloting skills to navigate the jump gates, with bifurcating paths and increasing difficulty the longer the jaunt. Y'know, FLYING stuff