Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

[Rubbernuke]

Well, that's been the excuse for Open Only for 2 years.

Because all other avenues of poor excuses were debunked a long time ago.

The potential gains outlined seem to say otherwise.

Especially when Frontier said Solo balances Solo, PG balances PG - so the whole "modes give an unfair advantage" got shot down.

Yes, so if Power A fights in Open, Power B fights A in Open and forts in solo, how is that not unequal? If anything this argument suggests don't bother with skill and simply grind. So why have asymmetrical powers, lop sided PvP piracy etc? Maybe FD did not realize too many would simply choose the path that was easiest. PG AFK turretboats say hello too. If these were in open then thats fine, its a risk. But if one does it, it forces the other down to compete to the loweset common denominator. And since everything is so easy and predictable you get a full galaxy with very little left to play for.

Frontier said the majority of players play in Open - so bye bye "everyone hiding in Solo" excuse.

Out of those, what is the % of pledges in Powerplay? What % fort or fight in expansions in Solo for example? What is the merit per % in Solo?

Then you add on the fact XB1 and PS4 are also separate instancing with people who don't have the premium on those still doing PP.

Last time I checked Powers have supporters on consoles. Plus, consoles require subs. Its just how it is.

Throw in the poor networking with P2P, heck I just need to run Netflix and I lose 2/3 of the player base. Good luck stopping me when I'm busy watching Star Trek Discovery because my mate up the road cannot instance with me when I do that.

The networking is much better to the point of being decent. The only time it falls down is with wing missions and mining. In the end though it would be a gamble, but the potential is worth it IMO at least. A decaying CG/ BGS hybrid without a USP is not going to excite people.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Even IF Open Only PP existed it would not happen as much as some seem to think. You claim this isn't about PVP... yet the ONLY real difference you want is PVP

The only difference is the possibility to totally avoid the PvP factor by chosing a mode that prevent you to meet every other player unless the ones of your choice. In a practical way of speaking, it would be a potentially bad choice to haul in a shieldless Cutter, for example. (Just making an example here). Or you could do anyway, chosing to take risks for a greater result. It's not about having a PvP interaction every time obviously (never said differently), but to not make that possibility avoidable. Then there's plenty of other factors, like the actual presence of another human being: that would be a matter of luck, which is another factor.

If griefing is perfectly acceptable as I've heard over and over and over (and strangely from POOPs and just plain OOPs) then 5C is as well.

Then it was acceptable even the old engineering bug because people could replicate that willingly? It's not, in fact FDev punished the players that exploited that. The game is large, and there's plenty of bugs and faulty design choices, and considering the evolving nature of Elite they've got priorities (sadly to me of course Powerplay is on the lowest place of this priority list). I don't care about griefing: in Powerplay there would be no griefing because the PvP factor would be willingly accepted. If we want to talk about the game as a whole please let's do that in a proper thread. in here let's stick to a Powerplay point of view, I'd gladly talk about all of that you're bringing in to confront my opinions with you, but this is not the case, I just want to talk about Powerplay now. (Staying in topic).

Because it actually is relevant when you add in POOP.. especially since some like to use the "balance" claim to say the modes are not balanced already so doing PP only in OO wouldn't unbalance the modes when in fact it would in a HUGE way.

The only reasonable way it could affect the rest of the game it is if this new type of Powerplay game mechanic becomes so succesful in terms of partecipation that the Developers would try to move that to other parts of the game. Honestly: I don't think it could happen, even if I believe it wil have its very own aficionados. If you think about it, it's the same for every game mechanic in the game: not everybody is involved in exploration, or mining, or thargoids, or BGS, the game is large and there's place for any kind of playstyle, but apparently for the type I'm asking to there can be no place, even if I welcomed a "politically compromised" option as Powerplay becoming its very own game mode (isn't that enough to show you how I could care less about the Open/Pvt/Solo feud? For the last time: I'm here only for Powerplay).
It would have no effect for the rest of the game, especially if that's gonna be as deserted as you're sure it would be.

 

[Goose4291]

You think Lugh has been a Mahon supporter because the PP players wanted it? LOL!

That statement literally had nothing to do with what I wrote, did it Roybe?

 

[Darkfyre99]

That statement literally had nothing to do with what I wrote, did it Roybe?

I think the point he was trying to make, is that from the start, the rules of Powerplay has allowed players to prepare, expand into, and maintain systems that lost a Power CC.

The intent behind allowing this was to both to allow a Power to create forward bases to attack other Powers, as well as to allow player groups (such as the Crimson State Group, which ) to join a Power for various reasons, even though it may not be a "winning" move overall. When Powerplay was introduced, I didn't get the impression that Powerplay was intended to be a team-vs-team territorial warfare mini-game, but rather a simulation of high-level politics, with various player groups within a Power itself using the mechanisms in the game to influence the Power they support. But much like the background simulation, where players quickly realized that it could be manipulated in various ways, including as a proxy for territorial warfare and/or empire building, the Powerplayerbase pretty quickly took it in a direction the development team didn't expect.

The reality of those rules is a classic example why I don't like meta-gaming in general: fifth column activity, and the realization that it's a lot easier to attack a Power internally than it is externally. Gaming the play, as opposed to playing the game.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No, you are derailling the topic and trying to be flippant. Since M.Brookes flat out lied about Collapse not being in the game (and it being mentioned in the instruction manual for PP) you can write off anything FD say about Powerplay. If 5C is 'so good' why did Powers set up SCRAP? Why is it every so often after long and horrible bouts of 5C you get tacit declarations you will never 5C? Why is there no mention of 5C in the manual?

I can be flippant, but i'm being serious about this. Do it. Let all powers agree to 5C the hell out of each other, see what happens.

No idea what you mean by SCRAP though.

Why no mention of 5Cing in the manual? Well, presumably FD didn't think people would do that. But its emergent content isn't it? (ok, that was flippant ). But just because someone finds a way of doing something different than FD expected, it doesn't automatically make a cheat, and as far as i'm aware, you still believe it is.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

No idea what you mean by SCRAP though.

You see: it really is difficult talking about technical things with you if you lack the basics of Powerplay. Still you claim you've got the technical basis to talk about the argument with me or rubbernuke or bashy, which are actually engaged in Powerplay.
I don't wanna shut you up about the "offtopic open/pvt/solo" consequences that you think this decision could bring to the whole game, but you're trying to talk about 5C or any other advanced game mechanics without knowing what you are talking about at all.
And without even asking clarifications, you just claim to be prepared every single time somebody makes you notice that you are not, but still you lack a lot of knowledge about Powerplay.
For example: tell me why 5C is mathematically speaking so dramatic for a Power. Explain this to me, to prove that I'm wrong considering you simply not prepared enough to speak about this matter technically.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I can be flippant, but i'm being serious about this. Do it. Let all powers agree to 5C the hell out of each other, see what happens.

No idea what you mean by SCRAP though.

Why no mention of 5Cing in the manual? Well, presumably FD didn't think people would do that. But its emergent content isn't it? (ok, that was flippant ). But just because someone finds a way of doing something different than FD expected, it doesn't automatically make a cheat, and as far as i'm aware, you still believe it is.

These links might educate re SCRAP:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteSirius/comments/43l8go

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteSirius/comments/43l8go/siriusgov_launch_client_relationship_outreach/

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Notice how far back it dates.

Plus, lets do some maths- Powerplay is asymmetric, so you have very large powers and very small ones. Why on earth would a designer establish that base tenet and then also allow a 'feature' like 5C to sock puppet the smaller power? The designers of Powerplay most likely thought people would play honestly, instead of designing from a gits perspective.

In this context large powers can break off a chunk of players, pledge to another smaller power and smother them in crap moves. Its impossible to stop because by your powers nature its small. Antal, Kumo, LYR, Zemina, Patreus are all small powers and run that risk.

Taking it to its natural conclusion, its easier to defeat your enemies by pledging to them and prepping / expanding nonsense than actually fighting them as per the instructions.

Its acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, the definition of cheating.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

These links might educate re SCRAP:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteSirius/comments/43l8go

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteSirius/comments/43l8go/siriusgov_launch_client_relationship_outreach/

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Notice how far back it dates.

Plus, lets do some maths- Powerplay is asymmetric, so you have very large powers and very small ones. Why on earth would a designer establish that base tenet and then also allow a 'feature' like 5C to sock puppet the smaller power? The designers of Powerplay most likely thought people would play honestly, instead of designing from a gits perspective.

In this context large powers can break off a chunk of players, pledge to another smaller power and smother them in crap moves. Its impossible to stop because by your powers nature its small. Antal, Kumo, LYR, Zemina, Patreus are all small powers and run that risk.

Taking it to its natural conclusion, its easier to defeat your enemies by pledging to them and prepping / expanding nonsense than actually fighting them as per the instructions.

Its acting dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, the definition of cheating.

Well, after reading that i still have no idea what it all means. But ill take your word for it.

I know there are asymmetric powers, that's typical. I also know the further a power expands the harder it becomes to maintain and the smaller one becomes the easier it is. Therefore it seem the devs put in a mechanic to deal with asymmetric powers. Since the failed to put in a collapse mechanic, it means no power can really ever be wiped out, which is a shame, and one of the reasons i don't partake and call it a never ending game of Risk.

Large powers should be able to smash small powers. Small powers should become big powers if they get player support.

Since each side can use 5C, then its still fair. Each side can cause each other damage, based on the numbers of players they can commit to 5C activities.

Again, you think its cheating, i think its dirty play, but until FD say its cheating, then its not clear if it is. If it is cheating, FD should do something to stop it happening, although i can't see a way to do that. You 5C by "helping" a power in the wrong way.... how can FD stop people helping their powers? Open only won't stop it either, and the only way players can try and run interference involves them getting bounties with their own powers, and ATR chasing them.

So, as I said before, i won't call it cheating unless FD say its cheating.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Well, after reading that i still have no idea what it all means. But ill take your word for it.

I know there are asymmetric powers, that's typical. I also know the further a power expands the harder it becomes to maintain and the smaller one becomes the easier it is. Therefore it seem the devs put in a mechanic to deal with asymmetric powers. Since the failed to put in a collapse mechanic, it means no power can really ever be wiped out, which is a shame, and one of the reasons i don't partake and call it a never ending game of Risk.

Large powers should be able to smash small powers. Small powers should become big powers if they get player support.

Since each side can use 5C, then its still fair. Each side can cause each other damage, based on the numbers of players they can commit to 5C activities.

Again, you think its cheating, i think its dirty play, but until FD say its cheating, then its not clear if it is. If it is cheating, FD should do something to stop it happening, although i can't see a way to do that. You 5C by "helping" a power in the wrong way.... how can FD stop people helping their powers? Open only won't stop it either, and the only way players can try and run interference involves them getting bounties with their own powers, and ATR chasing them.

So, as I said before, i won't call it cheating unless FD say its cheating.

So you don't understand what it is but it's still not cheating for you because reasons.
Well, ok, ignorance is bliss, I guess.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You see: it really is difficult talking about technical things with you if you lack the basics of Powerplay. Still you claim you've got the technical basis to talk about the argument with me or rubbernuke or bashy, which are actually engaged in Powerplay.
I don't wanna shut you up about the "offtopic open/pvt/solo" consequences that you think this decision could bring to the whole game, but you're trying to talk about 5C or any other advanced game mechanics without knowing what you are talking about at all.
And without even asking clarifications, you just claim to be prepared every single time somebody makes you notice that you are not, but still you lack a lot of knowledge about Powerplay.
For example: tell me why 5C is mathematically speaking so dramatic for a Power. Explain this to me, to prove that I'm wrong considering you simply not prepared enough to speak about this matter technically.

You mean i don't know all the politics of PP. Correct! I've not been involved in PP for a very long time. I understand how PP works from a player perspective. I never really got into the statistics side of it all though, i left that to those who enjoy crunching the numbers.

Why mathmatically speaking is it so dramatically bad for a power, no idea of the maths. From a play perspective i understand it involves prepping unwatned systems for exapansion, that can deflect the leaderships goals and result in unwanted systems which then need shedding. Basically helping a power in a way that is counter productive to the power. That's the best i can do. When i was invovled, i don't think anyone was 5Cing, or it was still very new.

Anyway, once again, you are trying to tell me i cannot debate, not give my opinion, based on criteria you are setting.

Sorry, you're not going to shut me down like that.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

You mean i don't know all the politics of PP. Correct! I've not been involved in PP for a very long time. I understand how PP works from a player perspective. I never really got into the statistics side of it all though, i left that to those who enjoy crunching the numbers.

Why mathmatically speaking is it so dramatically bad for a power, no idea of the maths. From a play perspective i understand it involves prepping unwatned systems for exapansion, that can deflect the leaderships goals and result in unwanted systems which then need shedding. Basically helping a power in a way that is counter productive to the power. That's the best i can do. When i was invovled, i don't think anyone was 5Cing, or it was still very new.

Anyway, once again, you are trying to tell me i cannot debate, not give my opinion, based on criteria you are setting.

Sorry, you're not going to shut me down like that.

Not the politics: the math. That's the difference.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

So you don't understand what it is but it's still not cheating for you because reasons.
Well, ok, ignorance is bliss, I guess.

5Cing has been an issue for years. FD have made many public statements over the years regarding powerplay and 5C. They have acknowleged it to be an issue, but as far as i'm aware have never called it cheating.

You have an issue with that, take it up with FD, i don't define what is cheating, FD do that.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not the politics: the math. That's the difference.

As I said, i never got into the maths. I wasn't an analyist, i wasn't a leader, i was just someone hauling from A to B. Possibly half the time i was inadvertently 5Cing since i never really paid any attention to what the self-appointed leaders were saying, so i might have been prepping bad systems. No idea.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

5Cing has been an issue for years. FD have made many public statements over the years regarding powerplay and 5C. They have acknowleged it to be an issue, but as far as i'm aware have never called it cheating.

You have an issue with that, take it up with FD, i don't define what is cheating, FD do that.

Ok so: let's make a practical example.

Let's say that Rubbernuke and I are surgeons, and we're talking about a new kidney surgery technique that would help improve the hospitalization time of a patient.

Then you come in and you claim that the patient should have no kidneys at all, but you didn't study anatomy but you want to tell your opinion anyway. Because you know you've got kidneys. And that's enough for you to say your thing.

As I told you many times before we're talking about technical things in here. You want talk about the Open/Pvt/Solo feud? Good, open your thread about that.
You want to talk about Open Play in Powerplay? Good enough, you told your opinion many times before, you've been criticized using very technical arguments.

But please do not try and talk about the very same technical reasons because your opinion has been refute to try and defend your opinion. At least try to understand the maths first. Or you are just speaking non-sense.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Well, after reading that i still have no idea what it all means. But ill take your word for it.

SCRAP was conceptualised as an in game way for powers to help other powers oppose 5C expansions.

I know there are asymmetric powers, that's typical. I also know the further a power expands the harder it becomes to maintain and the smaller one becomes the easier it is. Therefore it seem the devs put in a mechanic to deal with asymmetric powers. Since the failed to put in a collapse mechanic, it means no power can really ever be wiped out, which is a shame, and one of the reasons i don't partake and call it a never ending game of Risk.

Its true no power can be wiped out, but its not that easy. There is a CC overhead curve that dictates what each system costs in keeping it. From memory it used to be linear, but early on FD changed it so after a set number of systems you pay the same. In essence large powers have it easier than mid sized ones (which describes most 'small' powers now since everywhere is full).

Large powers should be able to smash small powers. Small powers should become big powers if they get player support.

And this is not in dispute, as many early adopters went for the underdogs thinking skill would make up for size.

Since each side can use 5C, then its still fair. Each side can cause each other damage, based on the numbers of players they can commit to 5C activities.

So wrecking the game, not using skill etc is acceptable? In your twisted reality even if everyone 5C'ed each other the larger powers would still be better at it because with modes numbers alone matter.

Again, you think its cheating,

Correct

If it is cheating, FD should do something to stop it happening, although i can't see a way to do that

Well, consolidation and Sandros proposals do that, so FD are trying to stop it.

You 5C by "helping" a power in the wrong way.... how can FD stop people helping their powers?

Sandros proposal goes as far as this design can mitigate the damage. Several design proposals have been posted by players that would eliminate 5C totally. A BGS style PP certainly would.

Open only won't stop it either, and the only way players can try and run interference involves them getting bounties with their own powers, and ATR chasing them.

Open is one part of the proposals defences against 5C. The Open aspect is mainly there to make PP more dynamic and differentiate it from the rest of the game since features like the BGS have evolved.

So, as I said before, i won't call it cheating unless FD say its cheating.

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

I need no math to see how totally borked a game concept must be if such a wild construct is required to keep the whole chard house up. But I guess it's these sorts of politics and diplomacy that the PP lovers actually like. Not my cup of tea, I prefer well designed game constructs and not such a tangled mess. I think what actually happened and the role of FD was what we call in German "aus der Not eine Tugend machen". My translator says "to make a virtue out of necessity".

Too naive and inexperienced to really predict the typical MMO player of today who always tends to play the system whenever this gives an advantage, they realized too late that this possibility is hard-wired into the PP structures and it's too late to fix this in an adequate way. So from this point of view, it must have appeared quite comfortable to FD that 5c surprisingly got so many advocates.

Again there's no politics in that: just maths. In fact some of the actions of Powerplay is to check other Powers to prevent (and possibly undermine) such scraping attempts. Guys it's all about maths. You've got to understand this particular thing.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Calm down professor. To realize these things you still need to talk to the leaders of the powers you are going to cooperate with. That's not all happening in a sterile mathematic room.

Ehm... I happen to be in Kumo leadership for the last two years, so...

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Then I really don't know what this SCRAP thingy is. A collection of formulas?

Rubbernuke posted about that I thnk in this page or maybe the one before this.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Read carefully.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I saw this link and SRCP was mentioned there but in no way explained.

It’s basically an agreement between Powers to undermine each other’s extremely unprofitable systems, to maximize their chances of going into turmoil and then revolt when a Power has a CC deficit. Successful undermining increases CC maintenance costs, so having a friendly Power undermine your bad systems protects you from losing any undermined good systems, especially since 5C players will be fortifying those same extremely unprofitable systems, to lower their maintenance costs, in the hopes that it will leave more profitable systems vulnerable.