Powerplay If FD decided it could take the time to implement Open Only for Powerplay, do you think it should go to a public vote?

[Rubbernuke]

So, his head is currently being kicked in with the current system, so... if everyone was in open, he'd still be getting his head kicked in?

Yes he would, however the actual time spent doing said kicking would be a whole lot more varied in Open. Open would make the minute to minute stuff much more exciting. Currently people are grind UMing / one way bar chart chasing.

I mean, at the end of the day, its all about player numbers really. The more you have, the more people who have hauling, doing PvP, or whatever, and on average, you're going to have roughly the same quality of people between powers.

So skill has no place in making up that shortfall? One good, focussed player is worth ten lightweights.

So, yeah, i understand the game changes if we have open only, i don't expect there would be much difference in result.

The result would depend on a whole lot more factors than what we have now (work faster). And it would also be a lot more dynamic and unpredictable during the flying bits. I'd call that worth it.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Placeholder post amended to contain my full response.

Or just click below.

Spoiler: My response

As of right now, Powerplay is pretty much alt-BGS. Unlike the BGS, it is a mechanic designed specifically to pit groups of players against one another, and the success or failure of such rests entirely upon the group's collective efforts. What's more, PvP can and absolutely has made a difference. Entire cycles have hinged on last-minute pewpews, though incidences of such occurrences are admittedly rare.

Of all the dogs in the game that need to be thrown a bone, Powerplay is the one that's barking the loudest (as opposed to CQC, which in my view needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot). PP in its current iteration has all the makings of a min-max grind, and the only thing saving it from being such is when the individual players choose for it not to be. Even so, there's nothing to stop legions of cargo Cutters from endlessly hauling merits from point A to point B in the safety of PG or solo. Such an approach is valid within the rules of the game but hardly in the spirit of what I am charitably assuming was the developers' intent.

Open-only powerplay would be to the BGS as fighting Thargoids is to regular human NPCs. It would be similar but by design more challenging. It would force (yes, force, the boogieman word of the PvE crowd) the players of such to both outfit their ships strategically and engage in the cooperation of their fellow teammates. One might say that in order to engage in OOPP, gitting gud would be required to a degree, in the same way that such is needed if one is endeavoring to engage Thargoids.

This dynamic would improve PP immeasurably by adding in the element of uncertainty to one's play. Instead of a brain-dead truck-driving route or endlessly blasting NPCs, one must plan ahead and ask the right questions.

Is there a hostile wing in the destination system?

Am I, the player, prepared to engage that wing if there is?

What is the best balance between cargo capacity and survivability?

Are there any friendlies nearby I can call upon for help?

How badly will it hurt my power if I, and the merits I'm hauling, are destroyed?

How badly can I hurt the other power by tracking down and destroying their own players?

These are the organic, human-driven dynamics of how OOPP will turn a stagnant, grindy mechanic into something that resembles a sub-game worth one's time. I don't know if PP can ever be revolutionized to be anything except token-pushing, but I do know that it's PvP's best chance at impacting the game in a meaningful way.

And in regards to those players who simply can't stomach the idea of human adversity? Who can't be bothered to learn evasive skills or outfit their ship appropriately?

Not every little aspect of every game is going to be for everyone. Watering down an exciting, competitive dynamic to hold the hands of those who can't handle said dynamic does no favors to anyone. As callous as that may sound, it's the bare truth.

If every dog has its day, then let Frontier throw the PvP community this one bone.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Yeah, that.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes he would, however the actual time spent doing said kicking would be a whole lot more varied in Open. Open would make the minute to minute stuff much more exciting. Currently people are grind UMing / one way bar chart chasing.



So skill has no place in making up that shortfall? One good, focussed player is worth ten lightweights.



The result would depend on a whole lot more factors than what we have now (work faster). And it would also be a lot more dynamic and unpredictable during the flying bits. I'd call that worth it.

Sure, if you want the PvP then yes, it would be more varied. You get some interdictions thrown into the mix.

Skill definitely has a place. My point is, on average, across powers, everything averages out.

Let's say we have two powers. One with 100 supporters, one with 10. Let's say 1 in 10 players are good focused players and the other 9 in 10 are lightweights. Then the first faction has 10 good focused players and the other has 1.

Of course, its a bit extreme example, but hope you see the point. Open only or mixed mode, sure the players involved will change, their skills levels will differ, but the rule of averages comes into play more and more the more players you have.

Powerplay, BGS, or EvE, its largely numbers that determines the winners in these sorts of games, or perhaps more precisely, player hours rather than players.

Ok, sure, i'm sure someone can come up with an example from ED or from EvE where a smaller group beat a larger group. Of course it happens, there are always outliers. I'm talking averages.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Placeholder post amended to contain my full response.

Or just click below.

Spoiler: My response

As of right now, Powerplay is pretty much alt-BGS. Unlike the BGS, it is a mechanic designed specifically to pit groups of players against one another, and the success or failure of such rests entirely upon the group's collective efforts. What's more, PvP can and absolutely has made a difference. Entire cycles have hinged on last-minute pewpews, though incidences of such occurrences are admittedly rare.

Of all the dogs in the game that need to be thrown a bone, Powerplay is the one that's barking the loudest (as opposed to CQC, which in my view needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot). PP in its current iteration has all the makings of a min-max grind, and the only thing saving it from being such is when the individual players choose for it not to be. Even so, there's nothing to stop legions of cargo Cutters from endlessly hauling merits from point A to point B in the safety of PG or solo. Such an approach is valid within the rules of the game but hardly in the spirit of what I am charitably assuming was the developers' intent.

Open-only powerplay would be to the BGS as fighting Thargoids is to regular human NPCs. It would be similar but by design more challenging. It would force (yes, force, the boogieman word of the PvE crowd) the players of such to both outfit their ships strategically and engage in the cooperation of their fellow teammates. One might say that in order to engage in OOPP, gitting gud would be required to a degree, in the same way that such is needed if one is endeavoring to engage Thargoids.

This dynamic would improve PP immeasurably by adding in the element of uncertainty to one's play. Instead of a brain-dead truck-driving route or endlessly blasting NPCs, one must plan ahead and ask the right questions.

Is there a hostile wing in the destination system?

Am I, the player, prepared to engage that wing if there is?

What is the best balance between cargo capacity and survivability?

Are there any friendlies nearby I can call upon for help?

How badly will it hurt my power if I, and the merits I'm hauling, are destroyed?

How badly can I hurt the other power by tracking down and destroying their own players?

These are the organic, human-driven dynamics of how OOPP will turn a stagnant, grindy mechanic into something that resembles a sub-game worth one's time. I don't know if PP can ever be revolutionized to be anything except token-pushing, but I do know that it's PvP's best chance at impacting the game in a meaningful way.

And in regards to those players who simply can't stomach the idea of human adversity? Who can't be bothered to learn evasive skills or outfit their ship appropriately?

Not every little aspect of every game is going to be for everyone. Watering down an exciting, competitive dynamic to hold the hands of those who can't handle said dynamic does no favors to anyone. As callous as that may sound, it's the bare truth.

If every dog has its day, then let Frontier throw the PvP community this one bone.

Thanks for the reply, and I can see your point, especially about it being alt-BGS.

I will just mention again that this is exactly what i wanted from PP, but made better than what was delivered.

I can see why some people want this to be the way. I can also see why there are those who don't want it this way, because they don't play in Open and don't care for that type of play. They are happy with NPC interdictions. ED allows people to choose their level of challenge.

Regarding your last point about throwing the PvP community a bone. Again, i understand it, but i don't think this is the bone that should be thrown. But if it is, so be it. FD can make their own decisions. As long as if it the bone, then FD remove all traces of PP from the other modes so it becomes a non-thing for those modes. It doesn't affect them. This includes removing the need to flip systems to be more favourable to a power. I don't want PPers trying to flip my systems for a fearture i'm not allowed to participate in if i'm not flying in open. PPers complain about invisible people doing PP, so why should invisible people be affecting my gameplay for an invisible feature?

And finally, i still think this is not "real" PvP. Its effectively ganking in a different form. Combat ships vs haulers. Either the haulers git gud and can escape or they can't. And serial interdictions are a pain and very frustrating. Like i said, my preference is for FD to look for a solution that pits combat ships against combat ships. This could be in releation to PP. I think i've suggested before something like how Fortification and Preparation could be PvE activities and cross mode, while PvP activities are needed for expansion. Of course, its just a poorly thought through idea and would need to be seen if it could work, but there could be other options.

 

[znôrt]

And finally, i still think this is not "real" PvP. Its effectively ganking in a different form.

this obsession with ganking ... pvp can perfectly be asymmetric. eg. in "dead by daylight" you play either predator or prey, and both modes have appeal.

Combat ships vs haulers. Either the haulers git gud and can escape or they can't.

exactly. at this point moving strategic stuff from a to b isn't just hauling anymore, it's pvp.

And serial interdictions are a pain and very frustrating.

that's a problem with engagement mechanics, has nothing to do with powerplay. there's a host of additional problems, from network and instancing to grind walling that affect many types of gameplay like powerplay, regardless of open only or not.

Like i said, my preference is for FD to look for a solution that pits combat ships against combat ships.

there is. plain old combat zones to duke it out. wasn't that their purpose in the first place? for some reason that never catched up. elite dangerous is clearly a sandbox in this regard, players need to create the gameplay with the few tools at hand. but somehow it doesn't work, i'd say because of the host of other mentioned problems. so pp open only is not only a dead horse, it's also a red herring.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Sure, if you want the PvP then yes, it would be more varied. You get some interdictions thrown into the mix.

Remember this is a feature about conflict- Sandros comment on the proposal sees Powerplay filling that role. Actually dangerous interdictions would be one new threat. The other would be ambushes, station blockades and so on. You also have the varied threat levels from backwaters to busy systems- no more min max builds without risk.

In the end time and numbers sometimes wins. Its not always the case though. If a small power is attacking a large one they can use skill to identify and attack weak spots. Powers look at each others fortification patterns and times, and punish enemies when they get lazy.

And finally, i still think this is not "real" PvP. Its effectively ganking in a different form. Combat ships vs haulers. Either the haulers git gud and can escape or they can't. And serial interdictions are a pain and very frustrating. Like i said, my preference is for FD to look for a solution that pits combat ships against combat ships. This could be in releation to PP. I think i've suggested before something like how Fortification and Preparation could be PvE activities and cross mode, while PvP activities are needed for expansion. Of course, its just a poorly thought through idea and would need to be seen if it could work, but there could be other options.

Powerplay is Powerplay. You pledge and you are saying "my power is best, yours is not". If you fly in weak ships you will get shot down. This cures Solo and PG min maxing, slowing fortification and makes it less certain.

In a hypothetical Open only Powerplay, everyone is inbound so the busy systems would be capitals. Now, for powers to function they'd need effective overwatch, and co-ordinate as fortifiers come in. Overwatch would look for intruders, and keep them occupied, fast haulers (or very well armoured) would steam on through.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Remember this is a feature about conflict- Sandros comment on the proposal sees Powerplay filling that role. Actually dangerous interdictions would be one new threat. The other would be ambushes, station blockades and so on. You also have the varied threat levels from backwaters to busy systems- no more min max builds without risk.

In the end time and numbers sometimes wins. Its not always the case though. If a small power is attacking a large one they can use skill to identify and attack weak spots. Powers look at each others fortification patterns and times, and punish enemies when they get lazy.



Powerplay is Powerplay. You pledge and you are saying "my power is best, yours is not". If you fly in weak ships you will get shot down. This cures Solo and PG min maxing, slowing fortification and makes it less certain.

In a hypothetical Open only Powerplay, everyone is inbound so the busy systems would be capitals. Now, for powers to function they'd need effective overwatch, and co-ordinate as fortifiers come in. Overwatch would look for intruders, and keep them occupied, fast haulers (or very well armoured) would steam on through.

Yes, its conflict, it doesn't have to involve direct PvP. It can do, and its understandable some people want it to be moreso.

As for the other part, sure, that's what you are saying. What then matters is how you prove your side is the best. A change to open only will change a bit how people fly, where they fly, when the fly, what they fly, but the actual mechanics remain the same (barring Sandro's proposals, but even with most of those, its still mainly a game about hauling from A to B - unless they do PP missions).

I understand why some people want it, i understand how it will change the dynamics, that isn't under debate, at least, not by me.

 

[Rubbernuke]

As for the other part, sure, that's what you are saying. What then matters is how you prove your side is the best. A change to open only will change a bit how people fly, where they fly, when the fly, what they fly, but the actual mechanics remain the same (barring Sandro's proposals, but even with most of those, its still mainly a game about hauling from A to B - unless they do PP missions).

The text I've highlighted is the actual point. You play ED to fly spaceships, and make features that challenge players while flying them in different ways. Powerplay should not be solely about spreadsheets, efficiency and tickboxes where flying is an afterthought, or merely a formality.

 

[avow555]

Powerplay is going to remain in all game modes regardless of this thread.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The text I've highlighted is the actual point. You play ED to fly spaceships, and make features that challenge players while flying them in different ways. Powerplay should not be solely about spreadsheets, efficiency and tickboxes where flying is an afterthought, or merely a formality.

Well, actually, i play ED to have fun. Challenges are ok from time to time, but i don't play ED to be challenged. I play ED a lot of the time to chill.

I do agree PP shouldn't be only about spreadsheets and tickboxes, but it is, and it will still be if it goes open only. That is PP in a nutshell, at least for those trying to herd cats (ie: the PP "leaders"). The hoi polloi don't have to care about that now or under an open only situation, they just want to help their powers. Some will listen to the leaders, some won't. Some will fortify whichever damn systems they please and get shot at for being 5Cers under an open only situation, even if they are just doing their own thing.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Powerplay is going to remain in all game modes regardless of this thread.

That's a rather strong and definite statement, and even as someone who is generally speaking against the idea don't think its so clear cut. However, if we were putting money on it, then my money would be on it not happening. But there is always that possibility that FD might decide its worth trying.

 

[Rubbernuke]

="Agony_Aunt, post: 7744402, member: 49810"]
Well, actually, i play ED to have fun. Challenges are ok from time to time, but i don't play ED to be challenged. I play ED a lot of the time to chill.

Obvious retort: if you want to chill, why on earth get involved in a conflict? Also, something has to be wrong with the perception of Powerplay if people associate it with laid back gaming. Exploration is relaxing (so I'm told), so is mining- but Powerplay?

I do agree PP shouldn't be only about spreadsheets and tickboxes, but it is, and it will still be if it goes open only. That is PP in a nutshell, at least for those trying to herd cats (ie: the PP "leaders").

Currently spreadsheets dominate because you can guarantee all hauling- every single merit. There is no uncertainty, the only limiting factor is time. The uncertainty and unpredictability of Open would make this aspect much less dominant, as the figures would become 'fuzzy' rather than concrete.

The hoi polloi don't have to care about that now or under an open only situation, they just want to help their powers. Some will listen to the leaders, some won't. Some will fortify whichever damn systems they please and get shot at for being 5Cers under an open only situation, even if they are just doing their own thing.

That is a possibility, but Powerplay works in one way and quite often when you explain how its organised and where to look for help / guidance people comply. I've done it- in Utopia someone was preparing a silly system, I flew out, sent a message and we had a chat. I pointed them to the Utopian Reddit and they suddenly had loads of information, friends to join etc. Being able to see and potentially stop random actions like that is handy. Sandros other proposals (weighted preparation) would cut down random prepping though.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's a rather strong and definite statement, and even as someone who is generally speaking against the idea don't think its so clear cut. However, if we were putting money on it, then my money would be on it not happening. But there is always that possibility that FD might decide its worth trying.

Whatever they do, FD have to do something with Powerplay. If they do nothing from the proposals that is not an endorsement either way- its just FD sitting on their hands.

 

[Roybe]

It will go to a public vote...people will vote with their time and wallets...if it is something that the overall community doesn't want, they will stop playing.

 

[Siobhan]

Most PP players just do it for the toys anyway. Being able to keep them after pledging elsewhere just encourages treacherous thinking. And then they complain about 5c play.

Just drop PP completely from all modes, or else remove the toys and make it open only. But of course if you remove the toys, nobody will want to do PP any more.

 

[jasonbarron]

Most PP players just do it for the toys anyway. Being able to keep them after pledging elsewhere just encourages treacherous thinking. And then they complain about 5c play.

Just drop PP completely from all modes, or else remove the toys and make it open only. But of course if you remove the toys, nobody will want to do PP any more.

Another way of looking at PP as it currently stands is that the mechanic is so woefully underdeveloped that engaging it purely on the basis of picking up a few utterly optional toys before moving on is probably just a bad idea in the first place. Sure, Fdev could just drop the whole thing, but since they haven't and it currently limps along like an extra in the Walking Dead, perhaps FIXING it would be a good idea...because then the average Joe player might be persuaded to engage it for reasons other than to pick up a few random and unnecessary modules.

 

[Rampant]

On the subject of should there be a player vote:
That's definitely and definitively a big fat NO from me. FDev game. FDev choice.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Whatever they do, FD have to do something with Powerplay. If they do nothing from the proposals that is not an endorsement either way- its just FD sitting on their hands.

Well, it would be good if they did, but they don't have to. They could just leave it to rot. While i understand this is not desirable, it does have one advantage, not taking development time from other things which may (or may not) be preferrable.

I mean, for those who want powerplay improving, then sure, its a priorirty, but there is probably a large majority of players who don't give two figs about powerplay and never will no matter what FD do with it, and if the proposal is make PP open only, that's a pretty significant part of the population who won't care about PP at all afterwards. So, if it came to (for example) a delay of space legs by 3 months while ED works on PP improvements, i'm sure there are many (a vast majority i daresay) who would be like "What the hell, FD! Forget PP! Get spacelegs out of the door quicker!"

Of course, this might be a good argument against a vote regarding PP

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Another way of looking at PP as it currently stands is that the mechanic is so woefully underdeveloped that engaging it purely on the basis of picking up a few utterly optional toys before moving on is probably just a bad idea in the first place. Sure, Fdev could just drop the whole thing, but since they haven't and it currently limps along like an extra in the Walking Dead, perhaps FIXING it would be a good idea...because then the average Joe player might be persuaded to engage it for reasons other than to pick up a few random and unnecessary modules.

I think how they implemented PP modules was in general bad and the idea in general was probably a bad one.

Now, if i was in charge (usual caveat: probably good for you i'm not, you'd hate the game i'd develop), and I had done PP, i'd make the modules only available after months or possibly even years of pledging.

I'd also have made it so you can only get ranks for Fed or Empire, make it a real choice, and contingent on you remaining loyal whether you retain access.

Then i'd sit back and laugh at the complaints from people who want both a Corvette and a Cutter.