Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[B1rdy]

I thought you get get every material in at least 2 ways. Is that not the case?

DWEs. There are some other mats/ data, which theoretically have more than one way, but the alternative being so bad it really isn't. PI should be an example of the latter (at the moment.

I wouldn't call traders a workaround. They're more of a convenience. Quality of Life improvement.

At 6:1...not so much QoL. ;-)

Of course more ways of getting materials would be good, but - to me at least - it's not a "problem"... precisely because we have mat traders.

I think it is on the long run, the more stuff you Engineer the more apparent it will become.

engineering is a tool to enhance your ship and doing better what you would do without it.
do you enjoy a snow shovel?
no?
try to clean your house sidewalk wihout one.

While cleaning your sidewalk isn't a game and isn't designed to serve a certain purpose, ED certainly is and it is supposed to entertain.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I quite enjoy the limited engineering I feel I need to do, have found the fun in materials traders only recently (slow some of us ) but have not yet felt the need to go out of my way to deliberately spend time just collecting them for the sake of it.
But for the folk who feel the need to do considerable engineering, collecting the mats is likely a bit of an unwanted task.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

DWEs.

I'm 99% sure you can get them occasionally from Encoded USSs. Very occasionally.

 

[zZCannonFoddaZz]

Serious question. I don't mean 'do you enjoy having an engineered ship' or 'do you enjoy trying out different engineering modifications', I mean do you actually enjoy the process, the things that you do to get to that engineered module?

Acquiring vast amounts of materials, trading them when (inevitably) you don't have the one you want, at a massive loss, getting a series of lousy rolls that eat all your mats before you complete the mod you're aiming for?

I read posters on here stating that they've engineered whole fleets of ships in next to no time. I believe them- why wouldn't they tell the truth?- but I'm not enjoying anything like the same rate of progress. I decided to fully engineer my mission runner, an 'A' rated Python, back in November. I'd been tinkering with it for a while, I had what I thought was a huge amount of materials stockpiled and I'd unlocked a few engineers. I gave up half way through December and, in spite of having a whole week off at the end of the month, I didn't even flash Elite up. I just couldn't face it any more.

For most of the last four years I've put in a couple of hours a night, two or three times a week. Not exactly a power player, but not 'casual' either. Now I'm watching ED videos instead of playing- what kind of saddo does that? It's over a fortnight since I last played and I don't have any particular urge to change that.

Each completed mod has been a revelation. The Python is transformed. I really can't express how much of a difference the engineering makes- it's vastly more than finally installing 'A' class modules when I started the game.

But that's just hacking me off. It's painfully obvious just how pants stock ships are compared to engineered ones. I've got a whole fleet of vanilla ships that are a real struggle to just survive in. I don't mind running away every now and then, but the AI is balanced against much tougher kit than I'm flying. I can see where the 'git gud' crowd are coming from- my partly engineered Python is just melting AI opponents! But I'm about as 'gud' as I'm going to 'git', my fleet needs a ton of work and yeGodsinHeaven I'm burned out just getting one of them up to scratch!

I'd love to try out some of the newer ships, but I know that stock, even 'A' rated, they'll be easy pickings for dumb as a brick AI with ridiculously strong weapons and shields. It's not about skill, or lack thereof, the game's set-up is suffering from power creep. I wouldn't object to that, if engineering to the new standard wasn't such a massive pain in the posterior for me.

Am I looking at this all wrong? Is engineering actually a fun activity that I'm just not 'getting'? [uhh]

I used to enjoy it but since the changes to HGE spawns in 3.3 I hate the idea of using manufactured materials which are now las rare as hens teeth!
I know some people hated the old system but i never failed to find what I needed even if it took a while. Even with the supposed buff in this weeks update the new system is awful. Material traders are cheesy fix for broken mechanics!

 

[B1rdy]

I'm 99% sure you can get them occasionally from Encoded USSs. Very occasionally.

So, not really an alternative, especially not an entertaining one.

I used to enjoy it but since the changes to HGE spawns in 3.3 I hate the idea of using manufactured materials which are now las rare as hens teeth!
I know some people hated the old system but i never failed to find what I needed even if it took a while. Even with the supposed buff in this weeks update the new system is awful. Material traders are cheesy fix for broken mechanics!

Mat drops were always borked. In 2.1 you were almost more likely to be struck by lightning before finding polonium, then EFCs incredibly rare. Therefore it is not a 3.3 specific issue.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

So, not really an alternative, especially not an entertaining one.

Oh for sure, but it does satisfy the 'more than one method' requirement, even if only technically.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

The engineering mechanics are quite bland. Inset materials, press button, receive upgrade. It makes the engineers themselves little more than vending machines in mannequin frames.

There is also the Instant Payout that makes the engineers themselves quite bland. New blueprints are temporarily unlocked on the fly, forgotten whenever a new, but identical module is selected, and really makes little sense as a system.

Let me field this as an example:

I own a yacht. That yacht has many modular systems, some I have upgraded since I bought it, others I plan to upgrade. My radar, for example, is an older model. If I want to upgrade to a larger color display, I can just change the display. If I want to change this again to a different touch-screen display, I don’t have to start from the beginning and install and upgrade the system all over again.

Neither I nor my electrical engineer magically forget what has been done with the radar system already.

While engineering has improved it still has a long way to go.

 

[loki12345]

Honestly, yes i like it. But this might be because of my playstyle. I am not fully focused on a: getting all engineers unlocked and b: i do not play to get everything at grade 5in one run. I casually collect stuff and when i see i have enough i go of to see an engineer and mod my stuff. This is quite fun because you get some cool upgrade from time to time as a reward.
But yes it could be done a little bit more interessting. Still hoping for special engineer missions to get cool stuff.

Maybe they could build you some "unique" mods if you do some special missions. E.G. for a special laser with heavy overdrive you have to go to a special place, hack some console or so and after that get some special cristals from a military convoy you have to raid. Or something like that. That would make the engineers really cool in my opinion.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

If I don’t just trade off some MEF, DWEs are one of the few I really have to hunt for, and equip a special scanner to do so. I can’t collect those passively from ship scans as I play normally.

Maybe Fdev will add a multi-use combined scanner someday.

Pffff

Yeah right.

Get ready for that extra utility slot, boys!

 

[Schmack]

Are your raw mats full yet?
How about the encoded?

If no, have you used the farming sites, eg Anaconda crashes, biological sites and Jameson's Cobra?

So you fly all the way out to Jameson's crashed Cobra and you get one pass through these things. You expect someone to sit there and relog? That's what he's supposed to. He wants to play the game in one session and do everything without using exploits. It's simply not feasible. The fact that people use exploits and then comment as if that's normal gameplay is a bit ridiculous, but I'm guilty of that as well.

I will say though that going out to those high grade element planets about 1,600 light-years away is worth the effort. Don't need to relog at all, there's enough to go around.

For people who don't use third-party tools including this forum and YouTube and such you might never find that location.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

So you fly all the way out to Jameson's crashed Cobra and you get one pass through these things. You expect someone to sit there and relog? That's what he's supposed to. He wants to play the game in one session and do everything without using exploits. It's simply not feasible. The fact that people use exploits and then comment as if that's normal gameplay is a bit ridiculous, but I'm guilty of that as well.

I don't expect people to do anything.
I am simply addressing things as they are and trying to clear up the equivocation.

You can get all bent out of shape about things beyond your control, sure.
That's what most people seem to do here, eg this thread.
I suggest that is pointless.

I will say though that going out to those high grade element planets about 1,600 light-years away is worth the effort. Don't need to relog at all, there's enough to go around.

Oh, so one of the things I am trying to promote is perfectly fine then?
Shocking!

For people who don't use third-party tools including this forum and YouTube and such you might never find that location.

I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, on this forum.
As I said before, preaching to the choir.

Now, if he wantsto move forward, I can help with that.
But it starts with getting on the same page terminology wise, and I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone that something is fun or any such nonsense.
It's a means to an end,
That is all.

I know it's tough for some to not stray from the objective world, try not to be one of them.

 

[Alsteif]

In my case, as someone who used both the old and the new system... i don't really like it.
The process is the problem for me. You see, i do play a lot of Monster Hunter World. In this game you basicly hunt gigantic monsters, they drop random parts, there is RNG involved, and yet... it's so, so so so so so fun. It's the best kind of grind i know. The process to some weapons or armos is long but you know what to look for, where to look for, you have to literarly cut off that one bone or sack from a monster, while dancind around it and having lot's of fun, both with your friends or solo.
In Elite on other hand, engineering (and other parts of the game tbh... like guardian modules/weapons) is tedious. You go to a place A, do something milion of times, which usually is boring as hell, pray to rgnesus that he will grant you this one thing and then go to the engineer to do one item from tier 1 to 5, then another, the very same item, again from 1 to 5....
In short, the process of engineering is simply boring and unapealing for me. It's... a grind for the sake of grind. Mind you, i don't want it to be free. Nor i want it to be easy. I want a challenge that will actually make me... engaged in the game. But Elite doesn't really like that.
Ps: Of course, you can say that engineering is not "that bad" if you are not trying to het "that one thing" if you relog a lot by barnacles or some crash sites or places with lot's of materials. Sure. I can grind darniels progress, or Anaconda's crash site, or guardian ruins, or barnacles. But of course, and i did so. I know where to look for med centres in famine systems, i know how to get scans. And i do understand how i should use material traders.
What i mean is that this exact process in itself is boring and bland, repetetive. And without those helpfull locations/services, engineering is a pure torture.

The rewards are nice tho.

 

[Schmack]

I don't expect people to do anything.
I am simply addressing things as they are and trying to clear up the equivocation.

You can get all bent out of shape about things beyond your control, sure.
That's what most people seem to do here, eg this thread.
I suggest that is pointless.




Oh, so one of the things I am trying to promote is perfectly fine then?
Shocking!





I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, on this forum.
As I said before, preaching to the choir.

Now, if he wantsto move forward, I can help with that.
But it starts with getting on the same page terminology wise, and I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone that something is fun or any such nonsense.
It's a means to an end,
That is all.

I know it's tough for some to not stray from the objective world, try not to be one of them.

I didn't mean to imply that what you told him was wrong, but I was under the impression that he's against relogging to maximize his material take per session. I don't know if he's confusing CLing with relogging, but one requires you hard exit the game and the other is just using the main menu exit.

 

[Nerix]

Actually I do enjoy the process in a specific way.

As a first step it's about theocrafting engineered builds (on edshipyard - btw: CMDR Taleden is back taking care of the tool again!) and eventually discussing them on the forums.
Second step was unlocking the required engineers (not anymore), which took quite some time but led me to new places and activities.
The third step is to get the right materials. With some good sources from the forum (spreadsheets) you get quite efficient in finding them, even the rares. And back then (before mat trader) I had to do specific activities that I have never done before to get the materials (e.g. SRV checkpoints on planetary bases to get some data).

All in all I learned a lot about ED during the engineering process. I guess I like to plan every detail of my ship and then get it done. So in retro perspective I think I enjoyed the engineering quite a bit.

But I can understand that many people see it as very grindy. Especially in the beginning it takes some serious effort (unlocking and figuring out where and how to find rare materials/data). The engineering update did it for me though, as I hated the RNG where you had to put hundreds of mats in a module and still couldn't be sure, if it'll get better or not.

 

[baqar79]

I have to admit, that a good deal of my engineering is theory-crafting on coriolis.io. I would simply be lost without this website now, since I have spent so much time and fun putting together builds on it. I also have to admit though that once you have unlocked the engineers it is difficult to remember just how much time was required to do so.

With fully unlocked engineers my engineering process is like below (on a new ship):

1st Stage (Medium amount of time):
-Theory-crafting on Coriolis.

2nd Stage (Small amount of time):
-Purchasing ship and parts at cheapest prices @ Li Yong-Rui (Roguey.co.uk to find parts). It doesn't matter that I have over a billion in the bank, 15% discount minimum (or 20% on certain ships) or no buy.

3rd Stage (Medium amount of time):
-Initial engineering. No collecting materials at this stage, just using whatever I have on hand to upgrade the ship as best as I can, following the ship I put together on Coriolis.

4th Stage (Long to Obscene amount of time):
-Initial material grinding (Medium to Long depending on those DWE's): focusing on upgrading the FSD first. Once I've collected enough materials to upgrade the FSD to maximum I'll do so. For locating elemental deposits I'll use eddb.io to find planets rich in the elements I need, Chemical Manipulators (and some of the core materials for Light-weighting) I get from Dav's Hope.

-Middle material grinding (Medium to Long): Generally mixed, but I'll try to get the easier one off G5 components out of the way if I can (Shield Generator, AFMU (I always G4 shield these), Power Plant, Shield Boosters and Engine. However G5 PI's have been quite a bit of trouble for my Dolphin recently.

-Final material grinding (Long to Obscene): Light-weighting components, Life support, sensors, utilities (like Point defence or heatsink launchers) and weapons. This requires massive amounts of Proto Radiolic Alloys, which I find very difficult to get from HGE's in good numbers (Sometimes you only get G4 Proto Light Alloys and no G5 Proto Radiolic Alloys in HGE's). Often I get the horrible G5 Protoheat Radiators...sure you can trade them at the material trader, but with the 6:1 ratio, you need 60 Protoheat Radiators to max every G5 light-weight component (I assume 10 rolls to max a G5 component), and my DBX for example has 8 such components (8*60 = 480 Assorted G5 mats to maximize my ship if I can't find my precious Proto Radiolic Alloys).

 

[Franc Kaos]

...
None of the various ways have gotten me anywhere fast. I'm really thoroughly hacked off with the whole sorry show. It's not fun, I don't want to be doing it and when I've finally had enough I come on here and vent for a bit.

Who knows, the thread has legs, maybe Frontier will actually take some kind of action? You can hope, right?
...

They've changed mats aquisition three times and still don't have a clue. I wouldn't hold on to hope, it is lost here... Fdev have no clue when it comes to balancing the game (no offense fdev, you're brilliant programmers, sound engineers and artist, it's just the gameplay that sucks).

You still have to target every rock fragment to pick it up (a hold over from when mats aquisition had a tiny limit), still no word on limpet mergeration<?>, the gods awful engineer merry go round, alien incursion instancing, planetary biology that either does nothing or gives up the same mats as mining or whatever...

The Codex was a step in the right direction but two steps back on the barebones ill thought out implementation (check out Mass Effect for a decent ingame encyclopedia), the same with the orrery, with weaponry / shield balance, the ridiculous mining hardware requirements, the glacial pace of story and game development, the never looked at again Flight Assist off mechanics (which is pure suck using a HOTAS).
Elite Dangerous should be THE space game out on the market yet Star Cit. still makes more money and it's just a shell of an engine and some bitmaps...

/rant

 

[zZCannonFoddaZz]

So, not really an alternative, especially not an entertaining one.
Mat drops were always borked. In 2.1 you were almost more likely to be struck by lightning before finding polonium, then EFCs incredibly rare. Therefore it is not a 3.3 specific issue.

EFC’s were actually missing for about 3 months along with BC’s. I was specifically talking about HGE’s which they changed along with all USS’s in 3.3 which made them persistent and faction specific.

 

[Allin]

No, it's a necessity not a pleasure. Not in the way that you NEED to do it, but in a way of Y THO, WHY WOULD YOU NOT. Boring, but obviously beneficial.

Sure, you can do some creative builds with it, but that's a gimmick then as all optimals are already well known.

This is what happens when you have one-tracked and obviously overpowered progression system.

 

[Bill Clement]

I'm not picking a fight, I'm trying to help you straighten out your jargon.

There are 3 distinct situations.


Do you understand that combat logging, refers to avoiding combat?

Because you seem confused on that point.

No, you're trying to pick a fight. You haven't 'helped me straighten out my jargon', you haven't even had the decency to reply to the question I asked you yesterday. I'm not even slightly confused by what I meant and neither are you- you've wasted the last three days trying to get me to concede a point I've already conceded twice now. That's rude and immature, with lashings of smug condescension.

There is no specific word for the very specific act of exploiting the way a signal source remains persistent if you exit the game without using the game menu.

'Combat logging' is a colloquial expression which is close enough to describing that exploit that no-one commenting on this thread is in any doubt about what I meant. The phrase isn't in any dictionary and it has varying definitions depending on which game or website you search for one, just in case you decide to get even more insufferably pedantic.

I asked you for the terminology you would prefer me to use. This is your reply- 'you seem confused'. If you truly believe that then ease the alleged confusion- come up with a term to describe the act!

Otherwise, all you're doing is picking a fight and trying to make a fellow forum member look bad.

Again;


Please clearly state what you want me to use in each instance:

1 Logging out using the menu.
2. Logging out by other means in order to gain an advantage otherwise denied by using the game menus.

Play nice, eh?

Remind me what 'engineering' is again?

A massive pita?

 

[Jaggid Edje]

Yesterday I reached the level of experience in the game where I started to become curious about various effects of engineering beyond just "what the forum and reddit say". I'm playing around with trying various weapon types with various engineering and experimental effects.

I fortunately had enough surplus of materials on hand to do my first few experiments, but I also learned really quickly that there are some weapons with engineered effects that I very much like which no 'guides' pointed to. That means I want to do more of this messing around with builds and engineering and material gathering is going to quickly become a real road block in that.

I still don't think the material gathering is all that bad, but now I sure wish there was a "test simulator" where we could mock up various builds with engineering and try them out before going through all the trouble of actually getting the materials and doing the engineering.