Small ship combat sucks

[Sylow]

This thread is a perfect example, why defense inflation is a problem and should be cut down. Unknown to many people, it's not just a thing for PvP players, but very much affects PvE.

For the health of the game FD really should take action there. But i also know that the forum would explode in wailing and tears at even the slightest nerf and FD doesn't dare to go there again.

 

[B1rdy]

I've only been playing a short while, but I've come to the conclusion that small ship combat in ED is not in a good place, and I think there are multiple issues.

The relative manouverability of small ships vs large ships and the way FA off works makes mitigating damage through positioning a somewhat marginal prospect, and from what I understand of Engineering I get the impression that it has the effect of being a non-optional grind that basically exludes anyone who doesn't want to perform that grind from being remotely competitive.

Perfectly fine assessment of the current combat situation of ED. Small ships are outclassed in any meaningful way by medium ships. CZs und PvP will not be so much fun until you do at least some mild engineering on your ship.
Don't mind those people here, who don't understand between bullet-sponge enemies and actual challenging, interesting combat.

 

[Arkadi]

I came back to playing in a a-rated vanilla sidewinder not long ago. I found I could manage to fight succesuflly only against the weakest of NPC targets. That is mostly Haulers, Adders, T6, Asp and sometimes lone Eagles, Vipers and Cobras if they were low ranked. Everything above seemed rather invincible to me. And I am not talking combat zone here, I am talking about interdicting lone targets and running when security comes.

CZ combat and PvP indeed need a bigger combat ship perferably with some engineering on it. I guess bountyhunting in RES would be ok too in a small ship. Didn't try that though.

It would be nice if small ships could compete in the hand of a good pilot, but I think with current shield strengths and engineering it's rather impossible.

 

[WR3ND]

This thread is a perfect example, why defense inflation is a problem and should be cut down. Unknown to many people, it's not just a thing for PvP players, but very much affects PvE.

For the health of the game FD really should take action there. But i also know that the forum would explode in wailing and tears at even the slightest nerf and FD doesn't dare to go there again.

I think defense inflation has mostly been a good thing for the game. Less effective ganking that way and people can have a better chance of getting on enjoying other things in the game too then. Grinding CZs in a Sidewinder or Eagle, while technically possible, doesn't really make sense contextually in the game either. Use the right tools for the job, and it'll be fine.

 

[WR3ND]

You now have to grind engineers to play this content you already played before.

I agree that the Engineers is a weird bit of compulsory meta power creep bloat masquerading as gameplay content, but in this case I think it's a tangent issue.

Use smaller, faster, and more agile ships for what they're actually good at instead of pretending to be Luke taking on the Death Star expecting to get one hit kills.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I think defense inflation has mostly been a good thing for the game. Less effective ganking that way and people can have a better chance of getting on enjoying other things in the game too then. Grinding CZs in a Sidewinder or Eagle, while technically possible, doesn't really make sense contextually in the game either. Use the right tools for the job, and it'll be fine.

I can already pick solo to avoid the grindlords in their meta-engineered killer-boats. I can't however avoid the AI bulletsponges.

 

[WR3ND]

I can already pick solo to avoid the grindlords in their meta-engineered killer-boats. I can't however avoid the AI bulletsponges.

Use bigger guns. OP is talking about taking on bullet sponges in an iEagle. Context and all that.

 

[Sylow]

I think defense inflation has mostly been a good thing for the game. Less effective ganking that way and people can have a better chance of getting on enjoying other things in the game too then. Grinding CZs in a Sidewinder or Eagle, while technically possible, doesn't really make sense contextually in the game either. Use the right tools for the job, and it'll be fine.

You say that from a veteran players point of view. Of course, if you have your FDL/Chieftain/Corvette etc. you are perfectly right. But from a new players point of view, this is hell. The learning curve of the game already was steep in the base game. Thanks to health inflation of anything bigger than the starting ships (yes, they are exactly those which profit least of it) the hill to climb has turned into a massive mountain.

The game has serious issues with player retention. We can't tell for the PC version, but the PS4 stats show it quite clear: less than 50% of all players ever made it out of their sidewinder before they quit the game.

So making things harder for the new player clearly is NOT a good thing for the game. Small ships have to be useful. Not all powerful, but useful. It's where beginners spend a lot of time. (And some of us veterans also would like to spend more time, but they are too much overshadowed by bigger ships. )

 

[B1rdy]

I think defense inflation has mostly been a good thing for the game. Less effective ganking that way and people can have a better chance of getting on enjoying other things in the game too then. Grinding CZs in a Sidewinder or Eagle, while technically possible, doesn't really make sense contextually in the game either. Use the right tools for the job, and it'll be fine.

This hitpoint infaltion causes my FAS to run out of PA and Cannon ammo during combat with the enemy special forces. It also causes my unarmed Cutter with a 5A shield to be unkillable, in PvE and PvP. The hitpoint inflation cause a bigger gap between un-engineered or non-combat and combat ships. It is not a good thing!

Use bigger guns. OP is talking about taking on bullet sponges in an iEagle. Context and all that.

He was fighting a Cobra and had a C2 MC - perfectly reasonable, the 10 minute TTK is not.

 

[WR3ND]

...

I think the game is pretty easy actually and has always been pretty easy. I generally fly mostly non-Engineered small ships in the game. I also think newer players generally have it easier in terms of climbing the Elite rankings and making credits in the game. In general I agree though that the Engineers are a monkey wrench thrown into the works.

 

[WR3ND]

This hitpoint infaltion causes my FAS to run out of PA and Cannon ammo during combat with the enemy special forces. It also causes my unarmed Cutter with a 5A shield to be unkillable, in PvE and PvP. The hitpoint inflation cause a bigger gap between un-engineered or non-combat and combat ships. It is not a good thing!

I don't see much compelling gameplay to be had in farming NPCs anyway. If getting your harvesting crop rate up is meaningful gameplay to you, then sorry for your loss. I think it's better for the game and perfectly reasonable however that iEagles aren't as competent at farming CZs.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Use bigger guns. OP is talking about taking on bullet sponges in an iEagle. Context and all that.

Experienced in FAS myself. Should have big enough guns.

 

[NeilF]

For me, threads like this just underline the issues with balance in ED. Engineers just created a needless upper teir of performance, basically just to create shallow busy work. And worse of all, this upper teir wasn't a subtle careful tailoring of ships, it was a massive huge improvement to combat stats. Add to this magic side effects for added needless paper-scissor-stone-lizard-spock gameplay it ultimately means that ships can vary immensly now, creating balancing issues/concerns for both PvE & PvP.

Note: We can also add to this the tanking that can also take place by HRPs, so it gets even more unbalanced.


So ultimately, balancing is just out of the window IMHO in ED... And with FD adding even more slots to ships in the last update, it seems FD have stopped even trying.

 

[WR3ND]

Experienced in FAS myself. Should have big enough guns.

On the one hand there's NPC farming rate. On the other there's contextual gameplay. Neither are in an ideal state, I'll grant you that, but there are better options for killing in a CZ than an iEagle (which is what this thread is presumably about), and I'm alright with that.

 

[B1rdy]

I don't see much compelling gameplay to be had in farming NPCs anyway.

That is not the point, but I agree, the random brawls with endless spawning NPCs is a cheap game meachanic

If getting your harvesting crop rate up is meaningful gameplay to you, then sorry for your loss. I think it's better for the game and perfectly reasonable however that iEagles aren't as competent at farming CZs.

It is not about "farming", it is about killing just one(!) ship takes about 10 minutes.

 

[jnTracks]

Well sure, and you can buy lower rated modules than A rated, or you can get a 8GB of memory in your new gaming laptop, with a borderline GPU. You can do all of that, sure. You don't need to engineer. If you want to stay on the porch you can just have a stock sidey. I you want to run with the big dogs you have to be able to pee in the tall grass call engineering.

OK maybe not, but still. You'll probably enjoy the game more if you have a beast under your feet instead of a domestic cat (nothing against cats).

I did several wing missions for pirate lord kills yesterday in an engineered Federal Corvette. The 3 Vulture wingmates are a pain, but if you ram the leader enough just short of dropping the shields, you can finish him pretty quick without dropping your shields and even if they drop, I have hull and module buffs out the yang. Pop his hull and leave the wasps to themselves. Still, combat zones can be tricky if you're outnumbered. Even a highly engineered ship can get into some trouble pretty quick and you have to tuck tail and run.

This was basically my point, if you missed that.
People complaining that engineering is mandatory because they don't want to do the grind. It's not mandatory, unless you want to fly the hard-level combat in the game. There's lots of the game you don't need any engineering for, CZ is among the things you probably should engineer for.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

That was intense, wish I was that "average". What is a pacifier? Is it an engineered thing?

It's grinded from powerplay IIRC.

This thread is a perfect example, why defense inflation is a problem and should be cut down. Unknown to many people, it's not just a thing for PvP players, but very much affects PvE.

For the health of the game FD really should take action there. But i also know that the forum would explode in wailing and tears at even the slightest nerf and FD doesn't dare to go there again.

Seriously... Last month the PVPers sent a clear message to FDev : modify the theorycrafted PVP meta and they'll harass players. It's a deadlock. FDev made a grinding game so no one can be satisfied, nor experiment, nor take any nerf or buff without feeling it's an insult to the time they commited.

 

[Rat Catcher]

That is not the point, but I agree, the random brawls with endless spawning NPCs is a cheap game meachanic

It is not about "farming", it is about killing just one(!) ship takes about 10 minutes.

Assuming it doesn't run away first...

 

[Rat Catcher]

Seriously... Last month the PVPers sent a clear message to FDev : modify the theorycrafted PVP meta and they'll harass players. It's a deadlock. FDev made a grinding game so no one can be satisfied, nor experiment, nor take any nerf or buff without feeling it's an insult to the time they commited.

Sad but true, the threat was made even before the patch that included the change was released, and FDev buckled to the demands... So I guess if anyone doesn't like a change they can threaten to keep on doing what they always do, but give it a banner to fly under... What on earth wil the future bring following this precedent?

 

[Sylow]

Seriously... Last month the PVPers sent a clear message to FDev : modify the theorycrafted PVP meta and they'll harass players. It's a deadlock. FDev made a grinding game so no one can be satisfied, nor experiment, nor take any nerf or buff without feeling it's an insult to the time they commited.

Just what i mean. And this happened several times before. FD just pondered changing or nerfing something and part of the forum was up in arms and tears, opposing any change.